Guantanamo Bay = Disgusting, & Shameful

[Storm]

[quote name='#22' date='Jun 2 2005, 03:06 AM']The Geneva Convention doesn't pertain to the aggressor so much as it does to the nation trying to be the "shining city on a hill."
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's a simple matter to drag the people along...all you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-Herman Goehring at the Nuremburg Trials 1947.
[right][post="98420"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


Are you saying that we should be compared to Nazi Germany?

You have lost your mind!

[big_dish]

Oh what a tangled web the media weaves.....

I could care less what the fuck happens to any of those Gorrilla's (not guerillas). They are a bunch of religion crazed cavemen, who want their countries to starve from lack of advancement in society. They dont want to adapt and advance along with other countries, they want to stay in their woman beating, child murdering, religion-drunk culture. They dont want equal rights, or freedoms of any kind. Thats fine, just keep it on your own land. Oh? Whats that? You want to come to America and kill thousands of innocent people while they sit at their desks, trying to work to get ahead in life? You want to leave countless thousands of children without Mothers and Fathers? Ok. Come to our house. but since you have been here, we have visited your house. Your neighborhood. Your cities. Not alot left, but an eye for eye, eh? No? Why not? Its not fair for you to kill anyone you want, and in a REACTIVE response from America, its bad anytime your Tyrant leader is photographed in his undies? A couple of you fucking neanderthals are photographed doggystyle? Thats horrible. Here, shoot this reporter in the back of the head. Oh, you already did that? Well, here. Chop off this contracters head. What? You already did that too? Shit. Well, ok. I have one. Round up about 3,000 of your women and children, tie their hands behind their backs, and blinfold them. Now shoot them all, execution style, in the back of the head, then bury them in mass graves. What???? You already did that too? Fuck. Hmmm... What could you possibly do to get us back for not showing our prisoners which direction Mecca is.....hmmm..... Oh, I know! You could murder approximately 1.5 million Iraqi citizens by Gestapo-style death squads!!! What??? you already did that too? SHit. I guess we should have never taken those pictures of Tighty Whitey Saddam. What a fucking atrocity. These guys did absolutely nothing wrong, yet they are being held in the best western, I mean Gitmo, against their will. What a crazy world. Maybe I will move to France, where it is ok to be a fucking pacifist pussy, and to not care about my fellow countrymen, because we can all be so smitten with ourselves, and our awesome euro-style, that the greater good of an entire people is not more important than our gravity defying berets, and our selfish image. Thank (veterans) I have the freedom of speech.

[Nati Ice]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img]

amen brother

[Guest BengalBacker]

[img]http://img288.echo.cx/img288/7459/applause9cn.gif[/img]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[b][quote]Hey BJ u mention the geneva convention above..... U do realise that the geneva convention only qualifies for people who fight for a country under open arms and are considered soldiers. terrorists arnt because they never fight in terms of the normal military they wage phycological warfar and bombs against u......[/quote]


Yes I am aware that this argument is used... but it is flawed because the US toppled the govt of the nation that was there in Afghanistan. This is also the same arguement that Saddam used against the Kurds in Northern Iraq... he said they were all terrorists (I am very familiar with that region of the world and lived there for 3 years) and thus as terrorists they had no protection as soldiers... thus he imprisoned them, cut off their ears, gassed them, and experimented with medicines on them.

Also who gets to decide who is a terrorist??? to them we are terrorists.... these rights should be given to all people


[quote]-there not pow's... sorry that offends you but they are dudes that were firing weapons at us...[/quote]

then try them for that and bring the charges to a court or a judge to look at the validity of your claim.... Due process is non existant at Gitmo, they are not even informed what they are being held for.... plus I doubt these men shot at the US where the US say them, or else they would have been shot



[quote]amnesty international has about zero credit...[/quote]

it is funny America sites them as a source on N Korea and why we should intervene into Iraq, but as soon as they point out something Bushy doesn't like all of the sudden they have a hidden agenda



[quote]how can you compare suddam to bush?[/quote]

to parts of the world he is seen as much worse. Saddam by most accounts killed around 1 million civilians.
The WHO has estimated that over a million children dies from US sanctions and lack of medicine... some of the world blames the US for this.... why can't any of you see that the same way we view Bin Laden can justfiably be the same way they view Bush ?????[/b]

[big_dish]

[quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 1 2005, 11:35 PM'][b]

The WHO has estimated that over a million children dies from US sanctions and lack of medicine... some of the world blames the US for this.... why can't any of you see that the same way we view Bin Laden can justfiably be the same way they view Bush ?????[/b]
[right][post="98461"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


Those children die because their own countries are too busy with their own politics to care for their own people. The same people who receive money from the US for aid, hate on the US for not providing enough. Instead of going to war with countries, we simply cut off OUR supllies to them, in an attempt to get them to conform with the rest of the civilised, basically incorpaorated nations. The kids dying has nothing to do with us, and everything to do with them. They are in complete control of recieving aid. They choose not to. So, if you want to give them aid, now would you prefer we go in, take out the government by force, have some of our guys die, some of their guys die, then set up a democratic government that could succeed for hundreds of years, so no more children die?

Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day..........

[big_dish]

[quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 1 2005, 11:35 PM'][b]
. plus I doubt these men shot at the US where the US say them, or else they would have been shot
?????[/b]
[right][post="98461"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


not when they surrender. See, we are not cowards who slay unarmed masses.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='#22' date='Jun 1 2005, 10:06 PM']The Geneva Convention doesn't pertain to the aggressor so much as it does to the nation trying to be the "shining city on a hill."
[right][post="98420"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Lots of folks here have turned their backs on many of the principles which founded this nation, including Winthrop's explicitly Augustinian outlook. That's a shame. They think they're doing the right thing, but they're fucking this country up.

[sean]

[quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 1 2005, 12:56 AM'][b]Do Christians not believe that if they follow the works of Jesus that they go to Heaven ???  Are their christians that believe that the war on terror is doing the will of God by protecting the homeland?  Do many of these proclaimed Christian soldiers think that killing fellow men in battle will disqualify them from heaven? - No in fact they have now morphed christianity and nationalism almost together (to my disgust)....

Believe me I am the first to point out Religions negative impact on people, society etc. and dispise religion to the point where I would like to see it eradicated all together... however I believe that if swapped places many of the same men and women on this board or in any case would believe closely to how these men do and possibly act out in a simlar fashion.

How many Americans do you hear say (if anyone comes in my house or threatens my family I'll kill them) Now imagine that Iran tomorrow claimed they were liberating us Americans from Bush and we woke up and were informed that Iran had now captured Bush and Iranian troops started walking your neighborhood, arresting your nieghbors, abusing your wife, and then claimed that they were there to liberate you.  Would you not contemplate taking up arms, or defending your family or even using explosives to repel them ???? [/b]
[b]Nice.....    Lets just start hanging any brown person we find walking around the middle East.... "hey they were present when we invaded"   I love how we justify these men being in Afghanistan and armed when we attacked it, as them being an enemy of the US Govt..... [/b]
[right][post="98114"][/post][/right][/quote]

Following the works of Jesus or Muhamed have nothing to do with war. The muslim terrorists have been brain washed into believing that a special place is held in heaven for them IF THEY KILL THE INFIDELS. This is not what Muhamed had in mind.

Many Christians warp their beliefs into thinking that EVERYTHING is Gods will. It releases them from personal responsibilty.

I can understand the insurgents that want to protect their homelands from invasion but I thought we were discussing al-Quida terrorist prisoners, not Iraqis protecting their home. The terrorists weren't protecting their homes they were destroying the "Great Satan" with cowardly tactics.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[b][color="red"]Exact same paragraph that drew the applause up above (with changed words) but written from "their" point of view - I am sure it would illicit applause in the streets of Saudi Arabis as well

I am using this as a way to try and show people how reality is subjective and how it would look from the other side. ....... "you don't have to agree with someone to understand their point of view."[/color][/b]



[b]I could care less what the fuck happens to any of those American imperialists (not liberators). They are a bunch of zionist crazed debaucherers, who want their women dressed as whores and their children raised without fathers. They want to create a sinful hell on earth that is fine let them stay in their woman beating, child murdering, wealth obsessed, tabloid culture. They dont want equal rights, or freedoms of any kind, hell they didn't even let blacks share a swimming pool till 40 years ago. Thats fine, that you want mcdonalds and greedy material obsessed people, just keep it on your own land. Oh? Whats that? You want to come to Iraq and kill thousands of innocent people from your B2 bombers while they sit at their desks, trying to work and feed their family? You want to leave countless thousands of children without Mothers and Fathers?. but since you have been here, we will come to your house and commit terror. Your neighborhood. Your cities. Not alot left, but an eye for eye, eh? that is what your christian bible says. No? Why not? Its not fair for you to kill anyone you want with missles and far away tanks, but I am a fanatic cause I use a hand held bomb? This is a reactive response for stealing our Oil, its bad anytime your Tyrant leader is photographed with large business executives who get rich off of our oil. So what a couple of your journalists got beheaded? We lost 24,000 civilians in bombing while you sat in your air conditioned homes watching American Idol. Well, ok. I have one. Round up about 1,000,000 of your women and children, and force them to live in cages in the gaza strip and lose their homes. Oh yeah you already did that with the Indians who lived there. Oh wait you want to liberate us I forgot, strip malls will be left for those that aren't killed or have things shoved up their asses. Tyrants, oh yeah you don't like those now, forget the fact that you have supported over 30 different military dictators last century and supported South African aparthied and continue to support Israeli apartheid. Liberators huh, Thanks to Allah for at least letting me die with my dignity intact.

(blows self up)[/b]

[Guest BlackJesus]

I guess another issue at play here is whether your allegiance lies more to

[color="blue"][b]your nation or the Human Race ???[/b][/color]


My first allegiance is not to a nation, it is to principles (justice, fairness, equality of oppurtunity) and all people equally.

[Nati Ice]

those principles are exactly what this nation is supposed to represent...

[Guest BlackJesus]

[b]Also how is the phrase

[img]http://moveoncalifornia.org/bush_dumb.jpg[/img]
[i]"We will kill all the Terrorists"[/i]

[img]http://www.americanyogacollege.org/i/Sites/1/mullah.jpg[/img]
[i]"We will kill all the Infidels"[/i]


Any Different ????[/b]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote]those principles are exactly what this nation is supposed to represent...[/quote]

[b]I don't know if the word "Supposed" was deliberate but if not it was an accurate Freudian slip.

I am honest enough to realize that America falls fall short of these principles, and that we are not always right in everything we do.....thus when we are wrong the population should take notice [/b]

[Nati Ice]

sigmund would be proud...

while i cannot sit here and tell you that i would love for all of my principles to be correctly represented through this government, i can, however, honestly sit here and say that i have more trust in this reign of power than in the human race in general (but to me i guess thats not really saying all that much)

[quote]I am honest enough to realize that America falls fall short of these principles, and that we are not always right in everything we do.....thus when we are wrong the population should take notice[/quote]

exactly

[Guest BengalBacker]

I think many of us defend what America does so vehemently because we are bashed so mercilessly. It's like a post I made a while back, saying that I always end up defending Republicans on the internet because the bashing of them is often such one-sided and oversimplistic bullshit.

What I seem to be hearing from you BJ, is that it's our moral responsibility to be the world's problem solvers, or at least lead the charge. I don't disagree with that. The problem I see is that realistically, the world's problems can't be solved by throwing money at problems and never getting your hands dirty. You have to play the role of world police if you're trying to solve the world's problems. Sometimes that means doing things that on the surface seem to be against the principles you stand for. It's a complicated world and sometimes the ends do justify the means.

I'm not so naive that I think everything we do is for the most honorable reasons, but I do think that most of what we do is for our best interest, and in turn, the world's best interest. The world's best interest is also our best interest. I don't think any of us don't have compassion for innocent people who suffer. None of us "get off" on starving children or aids infested populations. I'm sure we all would love to see the world be a better place.

We are the most generous country in the history of the world when it comes to trying to help countries in need. No matter how much we do, we are still hated. It's kind of like if your boss gives you a bonus but you still hate him because it wasn't as much as you had hoped for, or thought you deserved.

I'd like to hear alternative plans from people, rather than just bashing what we do. Understand that everything done has a consequence. Plans and actions can't be short sighted with no thought to the ramifications of actions. That seems to be a common criteria in the bashing, that our actions have ramifications and future consequences. Let's hear some better ideas, and play out the possible consequences of them.

You are President for 4 years BJ. What do you do?

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote]You are President for 4 years BJ. What do you do?[/quote]


[b]Holy shit this would need 20 seperate threads and that would just be on the 1st day in office.....

I just want others to also open up their minds a little.... we can't keep killing all the terrorists and creating more at the same time.... As the world becomes more dangerous their are two paths and philosophies to attempt when dealing with "terrorists" .... when the minds of the populations that breed them and pull the rug from under them, or invade and piss off the beehive and create more of them... right now we are attempting to do both but niether with full effectiveness. I would hate to see a World in 20 years without many freedoms in America because we are on edge with the rest of the world for hating us and wanting to attack us. For a long time America was seen as a the "moral highground" and that gave us an advantage when we did speak out against other "tyrants" but when we are caught with shit like Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo it makes us look like liars and hypocrites and noone listens or follows them. then to top it off instead of manning up to them we act like the claims are false or made up by some liberal media even when it is Amnesty Intl for fucks sake [/b]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[img]http://imagerybyaimea.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/draftdubya_web.jpg[/img]

[big_dish]

[quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 2 2005, 01:16 AM'][img]http://imagerybyaimea.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/draftdubya_web.jpg[/img]
[right][post="98518"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


If that is a real picture, not photoshopped, and I hope its not real......Assuming that it is fake, somebody better tell the fuck that made it that this is a volunteer military, and that all of us that enlist understand there is something greater than ourselves on the line. This isnt a draft, it is a sign on the line if YOU feel like taking a chance to make the world, the country, nd the human race better. When you sign on that line, you know you will be away from your family. You know you will not make much money. You know, that you, and your team (or platoon, or division, or whatever) has a chance to make the world a better, in the long run. Guys on my team are dead now. People I knew, "worked" with, and lived with. They wouldnt bitch. It is VOLUNTEER. You can cry all you want about our image, about whats right and whats wrong. But you will never know anything more than what the media tells you. And thats what you base your opinion on. There is a greater good being done there, its just that people who are weak in mind and easily influenced cannot realize it. Not neccesarily by their own device, because media is influential, but easily influenced nonetheless. On Memorial Day, my little brother and I watched TV as all the pictures and names of the dead were listed off. About halfway through, 6 men were already from his unit. Did they ever question the principles and foundations they were fighting, and dying for? NO. Its easy for you to sit in Plantation Florida and criticise what happens to other people, in other peoples lives. And, usually, its ok (in sports). But htis is different. This is where knowledge and true ignorance bond and it is often difficult to distinguish between the two. You cannot understand the mindset of the average American fighting man, because you havent been there. You havent donned that uniform for four+ years, day in, day out. Hard times and good. It is surely a sacrifice that not only is worth it, but is often unnoticed by the general public, except in contempt. This is a war, fought by volunteers, for the greater good of mankind. This isnt about conventional warfare, really. This is learning on the fly. Those fucks in Gitmo are the ones who plan on killing your mother, and father. They want to shoot your neice in the back of her head while you watch, just so you can admit you are an infidel. They want to hack off your daughters neck, because you dont believe that Allah is the almighty what-the-fuck-ever. Have fun defending these apes, I am close to being sorry I ever defended you.

[Guest BengalBacker]

[img]http://www.therealmartha.com/Watchmy6/salute.JPG[/img]
[img]http://www.september-11th.us/2001/Salute.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.oregonarmyguard.com/images/sal.gif[/img]
[img]http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/people/flags/boorda/salute.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.tradoc.army.mil/pao/TNSarchives/May04/salute.jpg[/img]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[b]BigDish....[/b]


[b][quote]If that is a real picture, not photoshopped, and I hope its not real......Assuming that it is fake, somebody better tell the fuck that made it that this is a volunteer military[/quote]

Got the picture on Google not sure if it is legit or not.....


[quote]You can cry all you want about our image, about whats right and whats wrong. But you will never know anything more than what the media tells you[/quote]

I am hardly one who blindly gets all my info from the media .... I am a doctoral student and read scholarly journals, and have read over 300 books on the subject of terrorism and separatist groups.... I think the exact opposite is true of the ones who disagree with me....


[quote]About halfway through, 6 men were already from his unit. Did they ever question the principles and foundations they were fighting, and dying for? NO. Its easy for you to sit in Plantation Florida and criticise what happens to other people, in other peoples lives[/quote]

Not sure if they did or didn't question why they were there, I would hope they at least thought about it. Not sure the implication of me sitting in Plantation as to anywhere else, but you need to realize I have already had 4 members of immediate family serve in Iraq.... my sister just got back, I grew up as my dad was in the airforce living all through the middle east (on the border of Iraq for a time) in turkey for 3 years, etc .... I spent the first 15 years of my life on Airbases across europe and elsewhere.... I lived on the border of Iraq during the first gulf War ... and saw the mass exodus of Kurds and firsthand watched as the American govt and that shithead Bush the elder stabbed the Kurds in the back and told them to rise up and to do nothing and let Saddam kill over 100,000 of them.

You need to think before you start spouting bullshit that you know nothing about and aren't informed about.... I have never attacked posters on the thread only ideas.... but if you want to go across that line we can


[quote]Those fucks in Gitmo are the ones who plan on killing your mother, and father.[/quote]

I have never said that if they are guilty of what they were brought there for that they should't be incarcerated.... I want them to actually be tried for something.... for there to be some sort of due process provided so that we aren't just holding guys for nothing... if they want to kill my mother investigate and show me that



[quote]I am close to being sorry I ever defended you.[/quote]

I'm not sure if this is a reference to your mlitary service but save your guilt.... there is another place where it would fit nicely but since you did don the uniform I won't suggest you place it there instead.





- The hardest part in all of this is separating the anecdotal - Bravery, waving flags, flowery statements like freedom for all etc and actual truth..... Every damn army or country in the history of time has claimed they were acting in the betterment of mankind... just saying it doesn't make it so.... There are parentless children in Iraq whose familys were shattered by so called laser guided missles who would beg to differ with your assumption. Also the "principle" that soldiers think they are fighting for .... can also not really be what they are fighting for. I have great respect for a young man or woman who go to Iraq believing that they are there to better mankind, even if they really aren't because their govt has other intentions.


I have never had personal problems with any poster on the board here.... And I still don't with you BigDish but I don't aprreciate you impugning my knowledge or commitment, or claiming my triviality of ignorance when I would pit my knowledge on the subject, situations, and implications against anyone on this board or in this country for that matter.[/b]

[big_dish]

Before I go to bed, I want to let you know I read your post, and will respond thouroughly to it later. For now, some agreements, maybe disagreements, and

[b].. I am a doctoral student and read scholarly journals, [/b]

I know you are. I am not thinking you are uneducated


[b]
Not sure the implication of me sitting in Plantation as to anywhere else, but you need to realize I have already had 4 members of immediate family serve in Iraq.... my sister just got back,[/b]

I am curious as to what she would say, maybe a private conversation?

"[b]... I spent the first 15 years of my life on Airbases across europe and elsewhere.... I lived on the border of Iraq during the first gulf War ... and saw the mass exodus of Kurds and firsthand watched as the American govt and that shithead Bush the elder stabbed the Kurds in the back and told them to rise up and to do nothing and let Saddam kill over 100,000 of them.[/b]"

I agree, Bush did let them down, to put it nicely. I am not republican, I am not Democrat. Not even liberal. not really conservative. I only care about what this country (and in todays life, the World), needs to survive (USA), and even prosper (the World). The last sentence, though, is the mindset of people who refuse to accept fanatical actions in un-labeled (non federal-backed programs) groups of people. Saddam didnt kill 100,000 kurds, his people did, at his orders. These are the same people we are fighting now.

[b]You need to think before you start spouting bullshit that you know nothing about and aren't informed about.... [/b]

Thats not even close
[b]
I have never attacked posters on the thread only ideas.... but if you want to go across that line we can[/b]

not attacking you, its the notion I disagree with

[b]I want them to actually be tried for something.... for there to be some sort of due process provided so that we aren't just holding guys for nothing...[/b]

I think 1.5 million Iraqis, over 3000 Americans, and countless other vvictims are enough, dont you?


I will reply to the rest tomorrow, I have school and work tomorrow. Two full times and 4am dont mix well with me.

I also dont remember ever disagreeing with you about anything before this. I am not attacking you. Its the coverage and misinformation of the media that most people hold as truths (and really untruths) that bothers me. And I ask about your sisters experience because books only tell, they dont teach.


-till tomorrow

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 2 2005, 03:41 AM']- The hardest part in all of this is separating the anecdotal - Bravery, waving flags, flowery statements like freedom for all etc and actual truth..... Every damn army or country in the history of time has claimed they were acting in the betterment of mankind... just saying it doesn't make it so.... There are parentless children in Iraq whose familys were shattered by so called laser guided missles who would beg to differ with your assumption. Also the "principle" that soldiers think they are fighting for .... can also not really be what they are fighting for. I have great respect for a young man or woman who go to Iraq believing that they are there to better mankind, even if they really aren't because their govt has other intentions.
[right][post="98549"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Well, put, BJ.

Bring back the draft. That sure would cause people to pay more attention to the policy-makers.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Jun 2 2005, 05:32 AM']Well, put, BJ.

Bring back the draft. That sure would cause people to pay more attention to the policy-makers.
[right][post="98559"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
NO! I only want the draft back in case of dire emergency! While I agree that a random draft that wouldn't offer any exclusions to wealth/class would give leaders pause before they arbitrarily commit troops into battle, I still like our force as a volunteer one, for now. I would rather we emulated the Israelis and have a mandatory 2 year conscription for 18 year-olds than an actual draft...

I want my son to be able to choose whether or not he wants to serve...

[Storm]

[quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 2 2005, 05:10 AM'][b]Also how is the phrase

[img]http://moveoncalifornia.org/bush_dumb.jpg[/img]
[i]"We will kill all the Terrorists"[/i]

[img]http://www.americanyogacollege.org/i/Sites/1/mullah.jpg[/img]
[i]"We will kill all the Infidels"[/i]
Any Different ????[/b]
[right][post="98477"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


The difference is the infidels have morals and value human life in their pursuit of a safe and free America

The terrorist value nothing, kill their own children and people in pursuit of of total control over their masses