Guantanamo Bay = Disgusting, & Shameful

[Guest bengalrick]

bj, the main part in that article, imo, is that they are supposed to LIE about koran and other abuse, to create an uproar in the middle east... that is their greatest weapon and we must be aware of it...

[quote]And there is nothing funny about RUmsfeld giving guidelines for Dogs, things in dudes asses, stacking gys naked, sleep deprivation etc.[/quote]

and no offense, but where did this line come from? first off, whats wrong w/ sleep deprivation? next, i don't think rummie told those soldiers that did that retarded thing by stacking them up and taking photos and shit... and, are you talking about the "don't ask, don't tell" policy about the dudes asses?

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 12 2005, 05:01 PM'][i][b]
For arguments sake lets comapre this to the U.S. Military
They give soldiers instructions on how to snipe and kill others, how to spy, hide supplies from the enemy, keep information from being found out, and effectivley when they are killing the "terrorists" are they not making their wives widows and their children orphans.  Also US troops are not allowed to talk to their wives back home and tell them anything about their operation or where they are or any of the grusome details, this might interfere with the "destruction of the insurgents and mistaken god terrorists and the replacement with a democracy"  And there is nothing funny about RUmsfeld giving guidelines for Dogs, things in dudes asses, stacking gys naked, sleep deprivation etc.[/b][/i]
[right][post="102235"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

I don't think this is a valid comparison. While I see your point (the fact that abuses probably are occuring under the blanket generalization of terrorism, like being held indefinetely without being charged or provided legal representation), and I do not personally agree with most torture methods, the fact remains that they are treated far better than not only the way they would treat US soldiers if they were captured, but it has been documented that they often have better provisions, hygiene, etc while in custody than they would running around in their home countries!
Furthermore, I can say with confidence, having witnessed firsthand the treatment of Iraqi POW's during the Persian Gulf War in 1991-2, that we treat our captives with dignity, and that is something that seperates us from every enemy we have EVER faced in ANY conflict, whether it's a more clearly defined war like WWII or the present "war" on terror.
I think the problem of abuses is vastly overstated--if you simply look at the size of the military machine in terms of personnel, the law of averages applies, meaning that for any given large segment of ANY population of humans on the planet, that there will always be a few that would perpetrate bad behavior on their fellow humans if left to their own devices.
That being said, at Gitmo there is VERY LITTLE latitude for mistreatment of prisoners on the part of US guards, due mostly to ultra-strict adherence to security procedures, unlike the poorly commanded Abu Ghraib unit, and also due to the intense (and proven to be falsely inflamed) media scrutiny.
This is the greatest country on the face of the planet! Are we perfect? No. But we always have and continue to maintain a certain level of morality with regards to how our military treats captured opponents during conflict.
Now the US govt, well...who knows.
I am tired of the bashing of the military. Portray them as mindless extensions of corrupt government if you must, but the reality is that the often corrupt politicians who send people JUST LIKE me and you into harm's way aren't the ones deciding what happens in the intensity of strung-together moments that is a war. Nor are they there. All their information is secondhand, just like civilians watching TV at home while they stuff their craw with Frito's, forming opinions based on questionable information and half-truths.
While I am positive there are a few crazy, deluded people who have slid through the system and bring shame to our great military, we are the greatest and most honorable force on Earth. Take it for whatever you think it's worth. Myself and many, many members of my family have been there and lived it. It isn't always pretty, it isn't always perfect, there's always room for improvement, but it is the best we have, and that just has to be good enough.

<<whew>> [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/18.gif[/img]

[Jamie_B]

Good post bung.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Jun 12 2005, 10:34 PM']Good post bung.
[right][post="102339"][/post][/right][/quote]
Thanks man...that one actually took something outta me...

[Jason]

I have a question for all the "gulag" believers.

What methods of interrogation would you approve of?

[quote name='BlackJesus']The Gulag reference is based on the fact that there was no due process for the Gulag either, and people in the Gulag were no tinformed of why they were there. The scale obviously is not accurate (the Gulag took millions) but the same principle is there. ([b]arresting people, not telling them there charges, not letting others know who is in there, holding them indefinetly without allowing them to speak on their crimes.[/b][/quote]

These people are not US citizens who have been arrested for crimes. They are enemy combatants. Civil and criminal law do not apply here! And they KNOW why they are there.

If there are any US citizens being held in Guantanamo, then they are under suspicion of TREASON, and as far as I am concerned, have forfieted their right to be treated as a citizen of the US, and should be treated as enemy combatants.

[big_dish]

[quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 12 2005, 06:01 PM'][i][b]
For arguments sake lets comapre this to the U.S. Military
They give soldiers instructions on how to snipe and kill others, how to spy, hide supplies from the enemy, keep information from being found out, and effectivley when they are killing the "terrorists" are they not making their wives widows and their children orphans.  Also US troops are not allowed to talk to their wives back home and tell them anything about their operation or where they are or any of the grusome details, this might interfere with the "destruction of the insurgents and mistaken god terrorists and the replacement with a democracy"  And there is nothing funny about RUmsfeld giving guidelines for Dogs, things in dudes asses, stacking gys naked, sleep deprivation etc.[/b][/i]
[right][post="102235"][/post][/right][/quote]


First off, good post Bung. Second, to reply to this one........

INstruction of how to fight is the single thing that gives you life in this country, the language you speak, the books you read, the right to complain. Every group in history has had a system of defending itself, or, when provoked, initiating offensive action. If none of this is done, none of us are here.


Operational security. OPSEC. the single most simple concept of military strategy to comprehend and accept. Why would you possibly want anyone to know your position, your plan of attack, your unit strength, anything? Loose lips sink ships, as the saying goes. Unless you want wives to be widows and children to become orphans. Military strategists realised long ago that operational security, if compromised, could lose an entire war.

BJ, I know you have more creative things to bring up than that, that was pretty lame by your standards and not well thought out. I expect a better post in the future.