[quote name='SocalBengalEd' timestamp='1302802687' post='983651']
Don't think drafting 4 straights 1st round Wrs helped the Lions very much.
[/quote]
WR isn't a need but it's the 4th pick, players in bigger positions of need have issues of some sort or are poor value, too much money to gamble away on such guys, AJ Green the best talent in a few years at his position, Bengals more than likely can't/won't trade down, so they're left in the position of selection by elimination.

[quote name='bengalsdave985' timestamp='1302788369' post='983598']
I love the "dont draft AJ" crew, not 1 of you have said who they should draft. You cant just bang on 1 guy w/o giving valid reasons to draft another player
[/quote]


what do you mean? i've said it a million times and my opinion hasn't swayed since november. we should draft nick fairley, who was clearly the best and most valuable defensive player in all of college football last year. he stood out in every game and dominated. no one in the country put up stats like he did. no one in the country was as obviously significant while he was in the game, which BTW, was EVERY game, even though he endured thru injury.

the reason i'd make that selection is he would make every member on this defense better. an inside pass rush of nick and geno, with dunlap, odom and mike johnson on the flanks would immediately raise that unit into one of the most fearsome in the league. they would also be one of the youngest in the league. our rush defense, which was a problem last year, would be improved with the addition of a guy who registered more tackles for loss than any interior lineman...24.5. that's a staggering number, just as his 60 tackles were and 11.5 sacks. that he was targeted by virtually every team he went against in the SEC, constantly doubled and sometimes even triple teamed only adds more credence to what he accomplished. this guy has the best first step of anyone in the draft.

another wide receiver just doesn't add that much to this team...any wide receiver. the ones that actually deserve to be top 5 draft picks are few and far between. as walsh said, if your team is deep and you have very few areas of concern, then go ahead and draft one. if you can't make that statement about your team, it's a bad idea...you have bigger concerns. besides, this is a very deep draft at the WR position. there are many reasons why adding a 1st round WR would be a bad idea for this team. aside from value, you have two kids (simpson and caldwell) that have worked their asses off to be in the starting lineup. they've FINALLY shown they deserve to be out there with the way that they played at the end of last season and are both expecting major snaps this year. you have to continue to nurture that develop-ment. you can't hold them back. what are you going to do with them...send them back to the bench? you just can't do that, they've earned that right. why send them into a funk? and that doesn't even address our career reception leader, chad, who very well could be on this team next year, going by everything mike has said and done. we also have jordan shipley, who showed great promise last year as did our new tight end gresham. when we play a 2 TE formation, which we well could see with more emphasis on running the ball as they've publicly committed to doing, we're going to see chase coffman utilized more including in the passing game. i also expect to see more passes thrown to our RBs next year...be that benson, bernard scott, or brian leonard. we also have another WR who no one is talking about in quan cosby, who would be a perfect fit in this WC offense.

selecting AJ green is the 1st round would be extreme overkill. with all the weapons we have, weapons that have gruden excited and that he has already said he is going to make a concerted effort to utilize, adding either AJ green or jones to the mix would not get you good value in this new "spread the ball around and run the ball often offense". there are only so many footballs to go around and we need to change our thinking of the days of old with bob bratkowski's extreme emphasis on the WR position. those days have changed...that offense has changed. there are only going to be a limited amount of opportunities where such a player/pick could actually help this team. adding a later round WR in this deep WR draft would not only provide the necessary depth, it would also not disrupt the harmony and progressions of other players in this unit. it's crazy not to take advantage of an overabundance of depth at the position in this draft. and by doing so, we can get back to the order of business we should be addressing and that is filling all the other glaring holes on this team.

taking a quality DT and improving both our pass rush and rush defense should be at the very top of that list. when you consider there are no worthy offensive linemen that grade out here, it even makes more sense. adding a quality DT makes every player on the defense better. your defensive line is suddenly stacked. you're solid all the way across the board. you're now bringing pressure form all angles and that's always been the key to a good pass rush. don't dare double team any position or we'll make you pay the price for doing so. geno, dunlap, lamarr and mike would be better on passing downs. dunlap, peko, and mike/lamarr would be a nightmare to run the ball against. your line backers aren't so overworked now, and you are able to freelance a little more with them. all of the sudden we start to see improvement out of rivers as his game goes up a notch. rey becomes a force in the middle, given back the freedom he had similar to his days at southern cal. muckleroy probably grows in his new starting position. also, now our safeties can gamble a little more and cheat on the LOS. the already good CBs take their game to even the next level and people start drawing comparisons with them to the best in the game. now they don't have to cover their man all day as they have in the past. everything changes! zimmer even has more freedom with the calls he makes. the defense improves the offense as it gives them more opportunities and better field position. everything changes!

this is the logical choice to me.

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1302789985' post='983610']


Now who the fuck in their right mind is going to question selecting AJ Green at 4, if he produces like Fitz and plays a big part in getting the Cincinnati Bengals back to a Superbowl?

People can throw this dime a doze bullshit around all you like. Point is Arizona did draft Fitz. He has produced. It was a major reason they went to a Superbowl. A traditional shit hole franchise made it happen and almost won the damn thing while selecting a WR no. 3??????
[/quote]

that's total bullshit, sharm. like larry fitzgerald was the only reason their team got to the super bowl. like he put the whole team on his back and carried them, and weisenhunt did nothing else to build that team up in those 4 years following, including adding a great kurt warner to the mix. like larry fitzgerald didn't have a great group of other WR's to help warner and co. be such a great passing offense. like their defense didn't play a major role in them getting to the big game. did you forget how unblockable darnell dockett looked in that game and how much of an influence he was?

and who's to say that mr. AJ green will ever acheive anything that larry fitzgerald has? here's the links to each of their college stats. you can clearly see how larry fitzgerald's stats absolutely DWARFED AJ green's. i don't think it's fair to mention them in the same breath. it does a discredit to larry fitzgerald.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=379205

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/larry-fitzgerald-1.html

look at the numbers...look at the YPC....look at the fucking TD receptions!

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1302790368' post='983611']
That said Bill had his offenses built around 1st round WRs. Curtis and Rice. With late round QBs throwing to them.
[/quote]


yes, because bill used the draft board to do trades better than anyone i've ever seen, maybe including belichek. he was able to make those selections because he had the deepest team imaginable. as he said, when you have all those bases covered, go ahead and select any position you want to select. that's the key!

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1302790651' post='983612']
Georgia was a different team with that guy. It's a solid A+++ selection if it were to happen. People say crazy shit about draft prospects all the time when it doesn't fit their No. 1 position desire.


I love the "dont draft AJ" crew too. I would like AJ and/or one of the top defenders. Liking one guy doesn't make the other guy worthless, IMO.
[/quote]


you are missing the argument. no one is saying "such and such player" is worthless. then again, maybe that's just a case of over exaggeration on your part. what i happen to be saying is quite a different argument from that.

I love pass rush as much as the next guy, but you can't take these blanket "football statements" and apply them to the draft blindly.

It's the same level of ignorance that is displayed in the Ken Broo how to fix the Bengals thread. Take O-line at all costs is what I got out of it.


Sure OL is good. Sure pass rush is good. Sure most of the time those positions are taken at a higher frequency over WR.


However who's going to want to own taking Justin Smith (quality player) over LT? The blanket statement says that's the right move everytime. Reality says you got a good quality player and missed on a dynamic player. There's a million examples each way.

Big Daddy over Marshall Faulk. Of course there's Mario over Reggie so it works both way so I'm trying to create a one sided arguement.

I think this is how Marvin/Mike approach the deal. I believe he has commented on it several times. They'll rank guys as franchise types and those guys are first in line regardless of roster then after that you mix grade and need.

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1302807830' post='983668']
you are missing the argument. no one is saying "such and such player" is worthless. then again, maybe that's just a case of over exaggeration on your part. what i happen to be saying is quite a different argument from that.
[/quote]

I don't want to put words in your mouth but this is from you:

[quote]they need their damned head examined. taking a WR at #4, in this draft, with this 4-12 bengals team, with all the needs we have, with all the pass catching weapons we already have, is about the most ridiculous idea [/quote]

Ridiculous idea? Head examined? I know I've read on this board that it would be a wasted pick. Worthless/Ridiculous/Wasted. Whatever. It's neither.

You got measurable proof with Arizona Cardinals it's not a ridiculous idea, unless somehow winning a conference championship is ridiculous to you.

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1302807302' post='983666']
that's total bullshit, sharm. like larry fitzgerald was the only reason their team got to the super bowl. like he put the whole team on his back and carried them, and weisenhunt did nothing else to build that team up in those 4 years following, including adding a great kurt warner to the mix. like larry fitzgerald didn't have a great group of other WR's to help warner and co. be such a great passing offense. like their defense didn't play a major role in them getting to the big game. did you forget how unblockable darnell dockett looked in that game and how much of an influence he was?

and who's to say that mr. AJ green will ever acheive anything that larry fitzgerald has? here's the links to each of their college stats. you can clearly see how larry fitzgerald's stats absolutely DWARFED AJ green's. i don't think it's fair to mention them in the same breath. it does a discredit to larry fitzgerald.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=379205

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/larry-fitzgerald-1.html

look at the numbers...look at the YPC....look at the fucking TD receptions!
[/quote]

I think he had 3 TDs in the first half of the Conference Championship game. I did not say "only", I said major reason. That's true.

Fuckin ridiculous to play this dumb game that Larry Fitz is a dime a dozen player and the Arizone Cardinals are destined to be the Superbowl. Get the fuck out of here with that lame shit.

Who's to say that AJ Green will match Fitz? Well it's not Scharm inc. that has him rated in the top 5, it's just about the whole damn NFL world. So that is as credilbe as any other source saying Fairley is the next Warren Sapp.

Just quoting the facts...

Since the 1999 season (2000 NFL draft), there have been exactly 45 WR's taken in the first round. 4 of those WR's went on to win a Superbowl ring with the team that drafted them. Of those 4, only one (arguably two) played a prominent role with the team during the SB winning season.

[b]Of the 45 selections[/b]:
17 WR's taken in picks 1-10 - 1 WR with a ring (Travis Taylor - BAL)
9 WR's taken in picks 11-20 - 0 WR's with a ring
19 WR's taken in picks 21-32 - 3 WR's with rings (Santonio Holmes - PIT, Robert Meachem - N.O., Reggie Wayne - Ind)

[b]Of the WR's SB-winning seasons:[/b]
[list]
[*]Travis Taylor (#10 pick in 2000 draft); 2000 season: 4th on team w/ 28 rec, 276 yrds, 3 TD's
[*]Santonio Holmes (#25 pick in 2006); 2008 season: 2nd on team w/ 55 rec, 821 yrds, 5 TD's
[*]Robert Meachem (#27 pick in 2007); 2009 season: 5th on team w/ 45 rec, 722 yrds, 9 TD's
[*]Reggie Wayne (#30 pick in 2001); 2006 SB season: 2nd on team w/ 86 rec, 1310 yrds, 9 TD's
[/list]

[b]Of the SB winning teams[/b]
[list]
[*]2000 Baltimore (Taylor) - SuperBowl starters were Qadry Ismail & Brandon Stokely + not sure anyone, anywhere would claim that team won with its offense...let alone due to the efforts of a rookie WR
[*]2006 Indianapolis (Wayne) - Not sure anyone would argue that Reggie isn't a stud. Only counter point is that he was still #2 on the team (behind Marvin), and Peyton was spreading the ball around pretty well back then...defenses had a hard time covering anyone on that team
[*]2008 Steelers (Holmes) - this is the arguable one. Holmes was 2nd on the team that year...but they didn't exactly throw the ball a lot
[*]2009 Saints (Meachem) - Stats weren't terrible...but in the end he was the 5th option on a pass-happy team. Not sure you really need 1st round talent to fill that role
[/list]

Conclusions...
Evidenced by the past decade, most WR's are not picked early in the draft. Those that are picked early in the draft seldomly help their teams win superbowls. Last time I checked...the goal in the NFL is still to WIN SUPERBOWLS. AJ Green may be a stud...but I'd rather not take my chances on a WR at #4 overall

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1302808946' post='983672']
I don't want to put words in your mouth but this is from you:



Ridiculous idea? Head examined? I know I've read on this board that it would be a wasted pick. Worthless/Ridiculous/Wasted. Whatever. It's neither.

You got measurable proof with Arizona Cardinals it's not a ridiculous idea, unless somehow winning a conference championship is ridiculous to you.
[/quote]


OTHER.....BIGGER.....NEEDS.

in our current situation, we'd be wise to adress them first.

again, he's not larry fitzgerald just because you say he is. his in-game input wasn't on that level. go back of watch tapes of larry fitzgerald at pittsburgh...and he came out after only playing in his freshman and sophmore years and was drafted #3. i'm not convinced you are not talking about the same caliber of player...not convinced at all.

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1302807699' post='983667']
yes, because bill used the draft board to do trades better than anyone i've ever seen, maybe including belichek. he was able to make those selections because he had the deepest team imaginable. as he said, when you have all those bases covered, go ahead and select any position you want to select. that's the key!
[/quote]


Eh, it's easy to say what Bill said about WR when you happen to always have one of the best WR alltime and the absolute best WR of all time playing for you. I'm sure Bill's opinion would have changed without those two.

Which by the way: Those guys selected 15th and 16th in their respective drafts so it's not like Bill was plucking WRs in the 5th round and making them into stud WR.

This is how crazy this shit gets around draft time (which I love by the way so I'm not fighting, you kinda got to state that now a days in go-bengals world). Let's say AJ Green actually does become a top player like (insert Great WR name here). Is someone really going to argue that he was a bad pick at 4 but a great pick at 16?

Bill Walsh is still a genious if he took Jerry at No. 1 overall. Jerry Rice is still a key part of those Superbowl winning teams if he was chosen No. 1 overall. Curtis is still a great underrated Bengal all time great even if he was selected no. 1 overall.

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1302808589' post='983670']

It's the same level of ignorance that is displayed in the Ken Broo how to fix the Bengals thread. Take O-line at all costs is what I got out of it.



[/quote]


thanks for the comparison. you know that's bullshit.

For those that like lists...here are the 45 WR's taken in the first round since 2000:

Year Pick # NFL Team Player Position
2000 4 Cincinnati Bengals Peter Warrick WR
2000 8 Pittsburgh Steelers Plaxico Burress WR
2000 10 Baltimore Ravens Travis Taylor WR
2000 21 Kansas City Chiefs Sylvester Morris WR
2000 29 Jacksonville Jaguars R. Jay Soward WR
2001 8 Chicago Bears Terrell, David WR
2001 9 Seattle Seahawks Robinson, Koren WR
2001 15 Washington Redskins Gardner, Rod WR
2001 16 New York Jets Moss, Santana WR
2001 25 Philadelphia Eagles Mitchell, Freddie WR
2001 30 Indianapolis Colts Wayne, Reggie WR
2002 13 New Orleans Saints Donté Stallworth WR
2002 19 Denver Broncos Ashley Lelie WR
2002 20 Green Bay Packers Javon Walker WR
2003 2 Detroit Lions Charles Rogers WR
2003 3 Houston Texans Andre Johnson WR
2003 17 Arizona Cardinals Bryant Johnson WR
2004 3 Arizona Cardinals Fitzgerald, Larry WR
2004 7 Detroit Lions Williams, Roy WR
2004 9 Jacksonville Jaguars Williams, Reggie WR
2004 13 Buffalo Bills Evans, Lee WR
2004 15 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Clayton, Michael WR
2004 29 Atlanta Falcons Jenkins, Michael WR
2004 31 San Francisco 49ers Woods, Rashaun WR
2005 3 Cleveland Browns Edwards, Braylon WR
2005 7 Minnesota Vikings Williamson, Troy WR
2005 10 Detroit Lions Williams, Mike WR
2005 21 Jacksonville Jaguars Jones, Matt WR
2005 22 Baltimore Ravens Clayton, Mark WR
2005 27 Atlanta Falcons White, Roddy WR
2006 25 Pittsburgh Steelers Holmes, Santonio WR
2007 2 Detroit Lions Johnson, Calvin WR
2007 9 Miami Dolphins Ginn, Jr., Ted WR
2007 23 Kansas City Chiefs Bowe, Dwayne WR
2007 27 New Orleans Saints Meachem, Robert WR
2007 30 San Diego Chargers Davis, Craig "Buster" WR
2007 32 Indianapolis Colts Gonzalez, Anthony WR
2009 7 Oakland Raiders Heyward-Bey, Darrius WR
2009 10 San Francisco 49ers Crabtree, Michael WR
2009 19 Philadelphia Eagles Maclin, Jeremy WR
2009 22 Minnesota Vikings Harvin, Percy WR
2009 29 New York Giants Nicks, Hakeem WR
2009 30 Tennessee Titans Britt, Kenny WR
2010 22 Denver Broncos Thomas, Demaryius WR
2010 24 Dallas Cowboys Bryant, Dez WR

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1302809740' post='983678']
OTHER.....BIGGER.....NEEDS.

in our current situation, we'd be wise to adress them first.

again, he's not larry fitzgerald just because you say he is. his in-game input wasn't on that level. go back of watch tapes of larry fitzgerald at pittsburgh...and he came out after only playing in his freshman and sophmore years and was drafted #3. i'm not convinced you are not talking about the same caliber of player...not convinced at all.
[/quote]

I don't say that he is. The same people that rank your pass rushers say he is. Again this is not scharm inc. creating AJ Green it's the pool of every NFL guy that typically says AJ Green or Peterson are the BEST and SAFEST players in the draft. I've heard that plenty of times.

Our current situation? What need trumps scoring TDs?

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1302809220' post='983673']
I think he had 3 TDs in the first half of the Conference Championship game. I did not say "only", I said major reason. That's true.

Fuckin ridiculous to play this dumb game that Larry Fitz is a dime a dozen player and the Arizone Cardinals are destined to be the Superbowl. Get the fuck out of here with that lame shit.

Who's to say that AJ Green will match Fitz? Well it's not Scharm inc. that has him rated in the top 5, it's just about the whole damn NFL world. So that is as credilbe as any other source saying Fairley is the next Warren Sapp.
[/quote]


production on the field of play.

again, this discussion isn't about arizona's situation and larry fitzgerald. larry and AJ are two totally different players. AJ was not NEARLY as accomplished in the college game as larry was. i provided you proof of that. did you ignore it? are you disputing it? this discussion isn't about how well ken wisenhunt built that team up. it isn't about whether he made a wise choice with a WR that was much more accomplished at the college level than AJ was.

this discussion is about the cincinnati bengals' pick this year. there are so many other variables you're bypassing.offensive style, team depth at the position, other team needs. it's an injustice to make "blanket comparisons" without factoring all those in.

now if you want to say you don't believe that bill walsh was correct in his statement about it being unwise to fill the WR position when you have many other glaring areas of need, then just say that. because that's at the very gist of this argument. and bill walsh didn't make that statement knowing all the weapons we already have as pass catchers.

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1302809842' post='983680']
thanks for the comparison. you know that's bullshit.
[/quote]

Nope. I think there is a nasty habit in this message board and in the media taking high level football truths and equating them to everything Bengals out of context.

Everyone would agree that killing the QB and protecting the QB are important. But football is a team game and if you don't have playmakers on the outside your QB can be just as ineffective.

If a guy warrants that ranking and by all acounts AJ Green does. IMO, it is foolish to discount his selection based on some football mumbo jumbo.

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1302809763' post='983679']
Eh, it's easy to say what Bill said about WR when you happen to always have one of the best WR alltime and the absolute best WR of all time playing for you. I'm sure Bill's opinion would have changed without those two.

Which by the way: Those guys selected 15th and 16th in their respective drafts so it's not like Bill was plucking WRs in the 5th round and making them into stud WR.

This is how crazy this shit gets around draft time (which I love by the way so I'm not fighting, you kinda got to state that now a days in go-bengals world). Let's say AJ Green actually does become a top player like (insert Great WR name here). Is someone really going to argue that he was a bad pick at 4 but a great pick at 16?

Bill Walsh is still a genious if he took Jerry at No. 1 overall. Jerry Rice is still a key part of those Superbowl winning teams if he was chosen No. 1 overall. Curtis is still a great underrated Bengal all time great even if he was selected no. 1 overall.
[/quote]


uh, sharm. you do know that bill walsh won the super bowl the year before he drafted jerry rice, don't you? you are only proving my point...and BILL WALSH'S point!

paul brown did select isaac with the 15th pick. but then again the guy had posted a faster 100 yard dash time than carl lewis and had played in college under don coryell.

neither of these picks were #4 in the draft!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wide Receivers don't win football games, QBs, Offensive lines and Defenses do. Chad has won us exactly zero playoff games and is the best WR this franchise has ever had. He led us to a 4 win season WITHOUT Carson Palmer. Led us to an 8 win season with Kitna.

Not bashing Chad's talent, just saying a WR at 4 doesn't make sense to me. Who would you rather have on your team as a rookie, Ray Lewis or Jerry Rice? I am picking Lewis every time. He is involved in EVERY defensive play for the most part and runs the defense. He intimidates the other team.

Rice was involved in maybe 1/2 of the plays in some respect, ran his routes and caught passes from 2 Hall of Fame QBs who had GREAT o lines and fine running games. Rice would not have been great without the rest of the offense, Ray Lewis made that defense WAY better just being there similar to the effect Bob Sanders had on the Colts.

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1302810597' post='983683']
production on the field of play.

again, this discussion isn't about arizona's situation and larry fitzgerald. larry and AJ are two totally different players. AJ was not NEARLY as accomplished in the college game as larry was. i provided you proof of that. did you ignore it? are you disputing it? this discussion isn't about how well ken wisenhunt built that team up. it isn't about whether he made a wise choice with a WR that was much more accomplished at the college level than AJ was.

this discussion is about the cincinnati bengals' pick this year. there are so many other variables you're bypassing.offensive style, team depth at the position, other team needs. it's an injustice to make "blanket comparisons" without factoring all those in.

now if you want to say you don't believe that bill walsh was correct in his statement about it being unwise to fill the WR position when you have many other glaring areas of need, then just say that. because that's at the very gist of this argument. and bill walsh didn't make that statement knowing all the weapons we already have as pass catchers.
[/quote]

Again, you are calling into question AJ's college accomplishments. As far as I can tell AJ Green has been projected a top 10 pick since last year if I am reading my draft mag correctly.

I ignored your stats. Why wouldn't I? Your are tyring to dispute something that is indisputable. AJ Green's college production and play has landed him a deserved ranking in the top 5 of this draft by football pundits. The only thing left is for the football experts to validate that by selecting him.

So to me that's ridiculous to argue. He's legit ranked.


Then the second layer of this discussion is the value of a WR to a team. It is about making a wise choice at the top of the draft acquiring a dynamic player that in turned helps you win a Conference Championship. The Arizona Cardinals support this example.

The 3rd layer is what the Cincinnati Bengals should do. I'm saying if it's AJ Green. Then hell fucking yeah! That's all. Everyone should be.

The Bill Walsh layer, I'm not disagreeing with Bill. I'm just pointing out the quote you used, well Bill had two GREAT WRs and they happened to be picked in the First Round. So it is what it is.

No person in their right mind would declare the selection of AJ Green a ridiculous pick. Ultimately they are throwing shit against the wall and will forget about it when they are proven wrong or be that know it all guy that happened to be right. Either way as it stands today with what I know, I'm very excited about the possibility of getting AJ Green.

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1302811261' post='983685']
uh, sharm. you do know that bill walsh won the super bowl the year before he drafted jerry rice, don't you? you are only proving my point...and BILL WALSH'S point!

paul brown did select isaac with the 15th pick. but then again the guy had posted a faster 100 yard dash time than carl lewis and had played in college under don coryell.

neither of these picks were #4 in the draft!!!!!!!!!!!!
[/quote]

I'm not sure what your point with Bill Walsh is. I know he thought highly enough about a WR that he acquired him the first round.

Paul Brown apparently did the same with Bill on his staff.

No shit they weren't the top 5 of those drafts. The kicker is, they'd still be GREAT picks if they were.

[quote name='SF2' timestamp='1302811327' post='983686']
Wide Receivers don't win football games, QBs, Offensive lines and Defenses do. Chad has won us exactly zero playoff games and is the best WR this franchise has ever had. He led us to a 4 win season WITHOUT Carson Palmer. Led us to an 8 win season with Kitna.

Not bashing Chad's talent, just saying a WR at 4 doesn't make sense to me. Who would you rather have on your team as a rookie, Ray Lewis or Jerry Rice? I am picking Lewis every time. He is involved in EVERY defensive play for the most part and runs the defense. He intimidates the other team.

Rice was involved in maybe 1/2 of the plays in some respect, ran his routes and caught passes from 2 Hall of Fame QBs who had GREAT o lines and fine running games. Rice would not have been great without the rest of the offense, Ray Lewis made that defense WAY better just being there similar to the effect Bob Sanders had on the Colts.
[/quote]


Football mumbo jumbo doesn't win football games. The only thing that's proven is football teams adjust and reinvent themselves through scheme players etc. That cycle simply never ends.

I'd say absolute statements about what wins football games and what doesn't are destined to be proven wrong.

At one point a Dome team never won a Superbowl. So why the hell would anybody build one?

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1302810195' post='983682']
What need trumps scoring TDs?
[/quote]


stopping the other team from scoring TDs. adding a player that makes your whole defense better, that will be involved in virtually all the defensive snaps.

vs. taking a WR who only slightly augments your offense, since you have so many other weapons and are committed to both using them and running the ball more.

so you weigh an integral defensive position, where you have a proven need and the guy likely plays most of the defensive snaps, against an improvement of an offensive position (WR) where his involvement in the offensive game plan will amount to 10-15% of the plays AT THE VERY MOST.

you had four pass catchers (simpson, caldwell, shipley, gresham) that showed promise at the offensive position throughout and at the end of last year.

you have a worn out tank johnson and a very under performing sims at the other position of need.

the defensive player you are considering was clearly more dominant at his position than the offensive player was, both against SEC competition. the offensive player had to sit out four games for contact with an agent and selling said agent football jerseys. and yet the defensive guy is the one they try to label as having character issues. go figure!

it's an easy choice, to me.

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1302812180' post='983690']
stopping the other team from scoring TDs. adding a player that makes your whole defense better, that will be involved in virtually all the defensive snaps.

vs. taking a WR who only slightly augments your offense, since you have so many other weapons and are committed to both using them and running the ball more.

so you weigh an integral defensive position, where you have a proven need and the guy likely plays most of the defensive snaps, against an improvement of an offensive position (WR) where his involvement in the offensive game plan will amount to 10-15% of the plays AT THE VERY MOST.

you had four pass catchers (simpson, caldwell, shipley, gresham) that showed promise at the offensive position throughout and at the end of last year.

you have a worn out tank johnson and a very under performing sims at the other position of need.

the defensive player you are considering was clearly more dominant at his position than the offensive player was, both against SEC competition. the offensive player had to sit out four games for contact with an agent and selling said agent football jerseys. and yet the defensive guy is the one they try to label as having character issues. go figure!

it's an easy choice, to me.
[/quote]

Eh, they've had a harder time scoring than stopping the other team. The defense has recently be ranked highly. Sometimes the lack of scoring has actually hurt the defense.

This is fact: A year ago this board was lit up about TO, Bryant, and the need/desire to trade for Brandon Marshall. None of those guys will be with the Bengals this year.

What's changed on the defense that makes that need go away? The defense in fact found some young talent last year.

You always take the best guy, but no way in HELL can someone make the arguement that offense isn't the greater need.

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1302811529' post='983688']
I'm not sure what your point with Bill Walsh is.
[/quote]


let me see if i can help you there, then. the "POINT" is that the gist of this discussion, as far as where i weighed in on it and everyone responded to, was bill walsh's statement that you only spend a 1st round pick on a WR when you have all the other areas of need filled on your team. he clearly must have been in that position in the year where he spent the 16th pick on jerry rice, since he won the super bowl the prior year.

does that help?

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1302812096' post='983689']
Football mumbo jumbo doesn't win football games. The only thing that's proven is football teams adjust and reinvent themselves through scheme players etc. That cycle simply never ends.

I'd say absolute statements about what wins football games and what doesn't are destined to be proven wrong.

At one point a Dome team never won a Superbowl. So why the hell would anybody build one?
[/quote]
What does a dome have to do with the quality of the team?

Sorry, WRs simply are not as important as some believe. We had Chad and TO this year and what did it get us without a good oline... nothing. Teams are built on the line and in my opinion at the Middle Line Backer spots. Great Linebackers MAKE plays and can change the game, Great WRs are useless if the QB sucks and the oline can't protect the QB.