Heartburn

[Tigris]

Well, fellas, I think I'm having my first bout with heartburn. I woke up around 3:45 with some pain and tried to sleep through it. It didn't go away and kept waking me up and I immediately started freaking out. I've done some research and the symptoms are dead on... upset stomach, burn behind the breastbone, shoots all the way up my throat. It's been a really bad 45 minutes. Luckily, the girlfriend had some Sierra Mist in the fridge and I'm downing it now. I've already taken 3 Tums but those things are worthless. This drink is settling it down a little but it's still really bad. I know it has to be from all that Easter food and then my usual pre night meal. I basically committed carbocide. Anyone have any helpful hints about dealing with this? It kicked my ass tonight and work in a few hours is going to be heck.

[fluhartz]

[quote name='Tigris' timestamp='1303720568' post='985561']
Well, fellas, I think I'm having my first bout with heartburn. I woke up around 3:45 with some pain and tried to sleep through it. It didn't go away and kept waking me up and I immediately started freaking out. I've done some research and the symptoms are dead on... upset stomach, burn behind the breastbone, shoots all the way up my throat. It's been a really bad 45 minutes. Luckily, the girlfriend had some Sierra Mist in the fridge and I'm downing it now. I've already taken 3 Tums but those things are worthless. This drink is settling it down a little but it's still really bad. I know it has to be from all that Easter food and then my usual pre night meal. I basically committed carbocide. Anyone have any helpful hints about dealing with this? It kicked my ass tonight and work in a few hours is going to be heck.
[/quote]


Zegerid OTC is about the best over the counter medicine for this I have seen. It's a little pricey... but it really works....

[|Bunghole|]

I used to get the [u]worst[/u] heartburn imaginable and regularly carried pocketfulls of Tums everywhere I went. That was 10 years ago. Now I take the Kroger brand generic version of Prilosec (omezaparole) and its about $9 for a two week supply and it is truly a miracle drug. Try it dude. It doesn't cure heartburn immediately, but once you simply take one of these a day, you will [i]never[/i] get it again. Its nice to be able to drink orange juice or eat tomatoes again.

[Tigris]

I'm wondering if this is something that is going to keep happening. When it settled last night, I was able to go back to sleep. As soon as I would move, roll, sit up to take a drink of water or anything, it would come back like I had a chili pepper burrowing into my insides. Then it would go away and I'd go back to sleep. I didn't eat breakfast this morning. I'm sore and nervous about it happening again.

Also, anyone take OsteoFlex? A few friends of mine take it for their joints and swear by it. Im starting on it tonight.

[ChicagoBengal]

I was doing the generic pepcid. Then moved up to the more powerful Prilosec (which worked well). Then decided to drop some weight, cut back on coffee, alcohol, and my propensity to be a glutton, and have for the most part, eliminated the heartburn / reflux. All together.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='ChicagoBengal' timestamp='1303740861' post='985602']
I was doing the generic pepcid. Then moved up to the more powerful Prilosec (which worked well). Then decided to drop some weight, cut back on coffee, alcohol, and my propensity to be a glutton, and have for the most part, eliminated the heartburn / reflux. All together.
[/quote]

Kudos to you sir! You did it the right way.

Tigris, the article at the bottom of this post is a worthwhile read for you. I had the exact same situation happen to me about 5 yrs ago. Mines was so bad that no matter what I ate (aside from fruits and veggies), I would get heartburn from it. Even drinking water would cause it. I was pissed/scared/curious all at the same time. I thought my days of eating what I wanted were over. I then did a whole lot of research and treated myself essentially as the doctors wanted to put me on a proton pump inhibitor regimen combined with 2 very strong antibiotics (gram negative and gram positive antibiotics to kill everything) as it is believed that acid reflux/heartburn/ulcers are caused by a bacteria (helicobacter pylori or h.pylori). Like I said, I researched and self treated and I have been heartburn free since. I can tell you exactly what I did if you'd like and I would imagine that would also be a good program for yourself. I had to be patient (as will you) but after only about 2 or 3 wks I was able to eat what I wanted to again. The main issue you have to deal with is that your good/bad bacteria ratio in your gut has been upset. Your system is in a state of dysbiosis. You need to bring it back to balance essentially. Do you want to treat the symptoms only or do you want to get to the root cause? Treating the symptoms only will lead you to become dependent on the pharmaceuticals. I suggest treat the root cause. Get at me if you want any more info.
[quote]
Acid reflux is an extremely common health problem. So common in fact, it affects one out of two of you watching this video. Other terms used for this condition are gastroesophageal reflux disease (GERD), or peptic ulcer disease. Typically, acid reflux is thought to be caused by having too much acid in your stomach.

This is a serious medical mistake that affects hundreds of millions of people.

What’s the REAL Cause of Acid Reflux?

It’s important to understand that acid reflux is NOT a disease of too much acid being produced, but rather it’s a condition related more commonly to hiatal hernia – a condition in which the acid is coming out of your stomach, where it’s supposed to remain.

After food passes through your esophagus into your stomach, a muscular valve called the lower esophageal sphincter (LES) closes, preventing food or acid to move back up. Gastroesophageal reflux occurs when the LES relaxes inappropriately, allowing acid from your stomach to flow (reflux) backward into your esophagus.

Heartburn is the primary symptom of acid reflux; a burning sensation that radiates up from your stomach to your chest and throat. It’s typically most bothersome at night, and tends to occur in connection with certain activities, such as:

*
After eating a heavy meal
*
Bending over
*
Lifting
*
Lying down, especially when laying on your back

Other symptoms include:

* Hoarseness
* A feeling that food is stuck in your throat
* Tightness in your throat
* Wheezing
* Asthma
* Dental problems
* Bad breath

While I was in residency training in medical school in the early 80s, an Australian physician named Dr. Barry Marshall did some pioneering work on acid reflux. He discovered that an organism called helicobacter pylori (initially called campylobacter) causes a chronic low-level inflammation of your stomach lining, and is responsible, or at least a major factor, for producing many of the symptoms of acid reflux.

There are over 16,000 articles supporting the fact that suppressing stomach acid does not treat the problem. It only treats the symptoms. And one of the explanations for this is that when you suppress the amount of acid in your stomach, you decrease your body’s ability to kill the helicobacter bacteria. So it actually makes your condition worse and perpetuates the problem.

Of course now we have treatments such as antibiotics that are designed to eradicate that organism. However, I’ve found that it’s virtually never necessary to use antibiotics, and I’ll share several simple, effective strategies to eliminate the helicobacter without the use of drugs.

How to Wean Yourself Off Dangerous Acid Reflux Drugs

If you suffer with this condition, and made the unwise choice of seeing a conventional physician for it, you’ve likely been put on a proton pump inhibitor like Prilosec or Prevacid.

Please understand that these are very dangerous drugs. It’s the last thing you’ll want to take for this condition.

Unfortunately, proton pump inhibitors are very popular because they work quite well. However, you’ll develop both tolerance and dependence on them, so you can’t stop taking them without suffering serious repercussions.

You should NEVER stop taking proton pump inhibitors cold turkey. You have to wean yourself off them gradually or else you’ll experience a severe rebound of your symptoms, and the problem may end up being worse than before you started taking the medication.

Ideally, you’ll want to get a lower dose than you’re on now, and then gradually decrease your dose. Once you get down to the lowest dose of the proton pump inhibitor, you can start substituting with an over-the-counter H2 blocker like Tagamet, Cimetidine, Zantac, or Raniditine. Then gradually wean off the H2 blocker over the next several weeks.

Safe and Effective Strategies That Can Eliminate Acid Reflux

While you wean yourself off these drugs (if you’re already on one), you’ll want to start implementing a lifestyle modification program that can eliminate this condition once and for all.

These strategies include:

Eliminating food triggers -- Food allergies can be a problem, so you’ll want to completely eliminate items such as caffeine, alcohol, and all nicotine products.

Increasing your body’s natural production of stomach acid -- Like I said earlier, acid reflux is not caused by too much acid in your stomach -- it’s usually a problem with too little acid. One of the simplest strategies to encourage your body to make sufficient amounts of hydrochloric acid (stomach acid) is to consume enough of the raw material.

One of the simplest, most basic food items that many people neglect is a high quality sea salt (unprocessed salt).

I recommend eliminating processed, regular table salt for a lot of different reasons, all of which I’ve reviewed before. But an unprocessed salt like Himalayan salt -- one of the best salts on the planet – will not only provide you with the chloride your body needs to make hydrochloric acid, it also contains over 80 trace minerals your body needs to perform optimally, biochemically.

Taking a hydrochloric acid supplement – Another option is to take a betaine hydrochloric supplement, which is available in health food stores without prescription. You’ll want to take as many as you need to get the slightest burning sensation and then decrease by one capsule. This will help your body to better digest your food, and will also help kill the helicobacter and normalize your symptoms.

Modifying your diet – Eating large amounts of processed foods and sugars is a surefire way to exacerbate acid reflux as it will upset the bacterial balance in your stomach and intestine.

Instead, you’ll want to eat a lot of vegetables, and high quality, organic, biodynamic, and locally grown foods. You can also supplement with a high quality probiotic or make sure you include fermented foods in your diet. This will help balance your bowel flora, which can help eliminate helicobacter naturally.

Optimizing your vitamin D levels -- As I’ve mentioned many times in the past, vitamin D is essential, and it’s essential for this condition as well because there’s likely an infectious component causing the problem. Once your vitamin D levels are optimized, you’re also going to optimize your production of 200 antimicrobial peptides that will help your body eradicate any infections that shouldn’t be there.

You’ll want to make sure your vitamin D level is about 60 ng/ml, and I strongly recommend you use LabCorp, which is a high quality testing facility.

As I’ve discussed in many previous articles, you can increase your vitamin D levels through appropriate amounts of sun exposure, or through the use of a safe tanning bed.

If neither of those are available, you can take an oral vitamin D3 supplement. However, whenever you use oral vitamin D, it’s imperative you get tested regularly to make sure you’re not reaching toxic levels.

Implementing an exercise routine – Exercise is yet another way to improve your body’s immune system, which is imperative to fight off all kinds of infections.[/quote]

[url="http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/04/25/news-flash-acid-reflux-caused-by-too-little-acid-not-too-much.aspx"]http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/04/25/news-flash-acid-reflux-caused-by-too-little-acid-not-too-much.aspx[/url]

[Tigris]

[quote name='ChicagoBengal' timestamp='1303740861' post='985602']
I was doing the generic pepcid. Then moved up to the more powerful Prilosec (which worked well). Then decided to drop some weight, cut back on coffee, alcohol, and my propensity to be a glutton, and have for the most part, eliminated the heartburn / reflux. All together.
[/quote]
I usually eat "bad" once in about 8 weeks. However, I've tried to gain some weight and have been putting down the
carbs. I guess Easter was the final straw for the whole weight gain experience. I'm thinking that it was just too much all at once and my body basically said to chill out. I wasn't eating per se... mainly just upped my carb intake by a couple hundred grams a day (which really isn't much in the whole scheme of things because I usually don't get many carbs at all).

[Tigris]

What ya got for me, buddy? I want to treat the root. Also, I'll read that in a few. I'm at court today for my sister's kids. It's a big cluster F

Thank you. And everyone else - thanks a lot.
[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1303746356' post='985626']
Kudos to you sir! You did it the right way.

Tigris, the article at the bottom of this post is a worthwhile read for you. I had the exact same situation happen to me about 5 yrs ago. Mines was so bad that no matter what I ate (aside from fruits and veggies), I would get heartburn from it. Even drinking water would cause it. I was pissed/scared/curious all at the same time. I thought my days of eating what I wanted were over. I then did a whole lot of research and treated myself essentially as the doctors wanted to put me on a proton pump inhibitor regimen combined with 2 very strong antibiotics (gram negative and gram positive antibiotics to kill everything) as it is believed that acid reflux/heartburn/ulcers are caused by a bacteria (helicobacter pylori or h.pylori). Like I said, I researched and self treated and I have been heartburn free since. I can tell you exactly what I did if you'd like and I would imagine that would also be a good program for yourself. I had to be patient (as will you) but after only about 2 or 3 wks I was able to eat what I wanted to again. The main issue you have to deal with is that your good/bad bacteria ratio in your gut has been upset. Your system is in a state of dysbiosis. You need to bring it back to balance essentially. Do you want to treat the symptoms only or do you want to get to the root cause? Treating the symptoms only will lead you to become dependent on the pharmaceuticals. I suggest treat the root cause. Get at me if you want any more info.


[url="http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/04/25/news-flash-acid-reflux-caused-by-too-little-acid-not-too-much.aspx"]http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/04/25/news-flash-acid-reflux-caused-by-too-little-acid-not-too-much.aspx[/url]
[/quote]

[Tigris]

I read it just now waiting on things to start. Very informative. Thanks a ton.

Looks like I need to get to the pharmacy this evening.

[Khatmandude]

I'll write something up and PM it to you. Good luck....I think with some discipline and patience, you can do it. Let me ask you a question first.....how much protein do you get a day and what is the source of that protein?

Also, how much of the following do you consume on a daily basis?
-Fruits
-Veggies
-PURE water
-milk
-soda
-alcohol
-tobacco

[|Bunghole|]

I don't know about all that, [b]IKOTA[/b]. GERD is caused by the barrier between the opening on the top of your stomach being unable to contain your stomach acids properly, which allows them to get into (reflux into) your lower esophagus, which is what causes the heartburn. Proton pump inhibitors like the one I take (omezparole) reduce the amount of acids your stomach produces without affecting diet, thus not allowing there to be enough acids to secrete into your esophagus.

Moreover, studies have shown that altering your sleeping position (laying on your left side, raising your head) will reduce reflux, as will what you eat and how much you eat at one sitting. The more you eat at one sitting, for example, the more acids your stomach will produce. It is recommended that you eat smaller meals throughout the day more often rather than fewer, larger meals.

I have never heard of the treatment you suggest, [b]IKOTA[/b].

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1303751613' post='985651']
I don't know about all that, [b]IKOTA[/b]. GERD is caused by the barrier between the opening on the top of your stomach being unable to contain your stomach acids properly, which allows them to get into (reflux into) your lower esophagus, which is what causes the heartburn. Proton pump inhibitors like the one I take (omezparole) reduce the amount of acids your stomach produces without affecting diet, thus not allowing there to be enough acids to secrete into your esophagus.

Moreover, studies have shown that altering your sleeping position (laying on your left side, raising your head) will reduce reflux, as will what you eat and how much you eat at one sitting. The more you eat at one sitting, for example, the more acids your stomach will produce. It is recommended that you eat smaller meals throughout the day more often rather than fewer, larger meals.

I have never heard of the treatment you suggest, [b]IKOTA[/b].
[/quote]

Did you read the article I posted Your omeprazole you're taking isn't good in the long term IMO. I think you also should seek alternative remedies instead of becoming dependent on a drug. And they call it PRACTICING medicine for a reason

And as far as not knowing about the treatment ....... I really didn't write out a treatment protocol or anything...just gave some info on how i also went through exactly this same situation and through research, I figured out what I needed to do and essentially "fixed" myself. I think the same regimen can be used to "fix" yourself but as you've been taking the PPI's now for a while, you need to ween yourself off of them first.

And your 2nd paragraph which shows that altering your sleep habits may have a positive effect.....again, this is a symptom you're trying to address rather than attacking the issue at the root cause. You can put as many plugs into the dam as you'd like......but the root cause of the leak isn't being addressed. Treating symptoms is like silencing a fire alarm.....the fire is still there even though you don't hear the alarm anymore. Want any more analogies hahaha?

I'd suggest you read the article as a starting point.

[Tigris]

I get about 250 grams a day. Half of that a day is from protein shakes and the other half is a mix between tuna, ham, turkey, chicken, tilapia (and whatever other fish/seafood I can afford at the time), steak, yogurt, and peanut butter.

On average, servings per day:

Fruits - 2
Veggies - 5 (mostly grain) I'd say 1 green a day.
Pure Water - 4 cups, total w/ protein mix 8 cups
Milk - 7 cups
Soda: None for 3 years except for that Sierra Mist (I do drink one of those low carb blue Monster drinks about once a month)
Alcohol: 3 times a year maybe
Tobacco: None

Thanks for helping me out. You're also helping my brother by the way. He's had the same problem for a year and a half now.

[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1303751438' post='985649']
I'll write something up and PM it to you. Good luck....I think with some discipline and patience, you can do it. Let me ask you a question first.....how much protein do you get a day and what is the source of that protein?

Also, how much of the following do you consume on a daily basis?
-Fruits
-Veggies
-PURE water
-milk
-soda
-alcohol
-tobacco
[/quote]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1303752962' post='985659']
Did you read the article I posted Your omeprazole you're taking isn't good in the long term IMO. I think you also should seek alternative remedies instead of becoming dependent on a drug. And they call it PRACTICING medicine for a reason

And as far as not knowing about the treatment ....... I really didn't write out a treatment protocol or anything...just gave some info on how i also went through exactly this same situation and through research, I figured out what I needed to do and essentially "fixed" myself. I think the same regimen can be used to "fix" yourself but as you've been taking the PPI's now for a while, you need to ween yourself off of them first.

And your 2nd paragraph which shows that altering your sleep habits may have a positive effect.....again, this is a symptom you're trying to address rather than attacking the issue at the root cause. You can put as many plugs into the dam as you'd like......but the root cause of the leak isn't being addressed. Treating symptoms is like silencing a fire alarm.....the fire is still there even though you don't hear the alarm anymore. Want any more analogies hahaha?

I'd suggest you read the article as a starting point.
[/quote]


No, I read it, but the article states that the GERD is actually caused by heliobacter, which is something I've never read or heard of before regarding "why" reflux occurs. It also states that proton pump inhibitors are "dangerous drugs" without stating "why" (other than dependence). Its just kinda pinging my BS radar a little.

[Cat]

[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1303758641' post='985690']
No, I read it, but the article states that the GERD is actually caused by heliobacter, which is something I've never read or heard of before regarding "why" reflux occurs. It also states that proton pump inhibitors are "dangerous drugs" without stating "why" (other than dependence). Its just kinda pinging my BS radar a little.
[/quote]

Well, that and that I have been to my GP, an ENT, and multiple treatments through my gastroenterologist, and they all like the omeprazole for me.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Cat' timestamp='1303759980' post='985696']
Well, that and that I have been to my GP, an ENT, and multiple treatments through my gastroenterologist, and they all like the omeprazole for me.
[/quote]

It is truly a [u]miracle[/u] drug. I used to get heartburn after eating [i]anything[/i], but especially acidic foods...tomatoes, juices, lemonade, etc etc. It affected my sleep, my work and my life. I would get heartburn so bad on a daily basis that it would often double me over in pain, and that was with gorging on handfulls of Tums. I'd vomit stomach acid into my mouth (and onto my pillow) at night (and I would dream I was choking on cigarette butts stuck in my throat, but nope...acid in my esophagus). Now I take this once a day...and nothing. I can pile hot sauce onto foods with reckless abandon!

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Cat' timestamp='1303759980' post='985696']
Well, that and that I have been to my GP, an ENT, and multiple treatments through my gastroenterologist, and they all like the omeprazole for me.
[/quote]

So you mean to tell me that the doctors you saw, who are given incentives to prescribe drugs by the drug companies, all like the drug you've been using? GET OUT! Maybe, just maybe the drug company will send those doctors to "medical conferences" in Hawaii for their efforts in promoting the drug!

And why would they like something that treats your symptoms, while not curing you of what ails you? Shouldn't medicine have to be taken to fix the problem and discontinued when the problem is fixed? When did the doctor say this omeprazole medicine will cure your issue? I would imagine the doctor never told you this was going to cure your ailment at all....only that it would make you feel better right? And if you can't afford your prescription....Astra Zeneca may be able to help.

Guess what the doctor prescribed for me when I had my issues with this? Yup, Prilosec....I didn't take it after the first day though as I read further. The doc also prescribed gram pos and gram neg antibiotics........to kill the h.pylori bacteria which is agreed upon in the medical profession now causes ulcers and the general acidity symptoms for the most part.

[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1303763435' post='985702']

No, I read it, but the article states that the GERD is actually caused by heliobacter, which is something I've never read or heard of before regarding "why" reflux occurs. It also states that proton pump inhibitors are "dangerous drugs" without stating "why" (other than dependence). Its just kinda pinging my BS radar a little.
[/quote]

It's good for things to ping your BS radar.....that just means you have to do more research until you can form your opinion. That's never a bad thing.

What do you think causes such a condition in people in the first place? Is it just unlucky ones whose spinchter can't close so that the acid gets up to the esophagus? How do you think such a condition starts? Definitely read about it more.......the medical profession pretty much agrees nowadays that the helicobacter pylori bacteria is the culprit for this sort of thing. And to back up their assertion with my own clinical trial (on myself), replenishing good bacteria in the gut while avoiding acidic foods that allow for the bad bacteria to thrive certainly worked for me. Evidence by the Chipotle burrito I just ate. I simply had to bring my body back to balance (Eastern medicine principle)and now I am able to eat what I want.

And it's bad for you and dangerous because it shuts off an essential function of the body. It leads to dependence, damage of the pumps which create the acid and destroys the stomach's ability to destroy food borne illnesses. Do you see how shutting off a function of the body could lead to issues later down the line? Our bodies are in such a delicate balance that disrupting a natural process could upset this balance.

I guess I take a more holistic approach to conditions of dis-ease.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1303766082' post='985705']
So you mean to tell me that the doctors you saw, who are given incentives to prescribe drugs by the drug companies, all like the drug you've been using? GET OUT! Maybe, just maybe the drug company will send those doctors to "medical conferences" in Hawaii for their efforts in promoting the drug!


[/quote]

Except that Prilosec and its derivatives have been OTC for quite awhile now, which removes the malicious incentives on the part of doctors to prescribe it at the questionable behest of pharmaceutical company representatives.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1303770350' post='985723']
Except that Prilosec and its derivatives have been OTC for quite awhile now, which removes the malicious incentives on the part of doctors to prescribe it at the questionable behest of pharmaceutical company representatives.
[/quote]


When someone, like Tigris, has this happen to them, they go to see the doctor...right? The doctor then prescribes 3 things. First, a proton pump inhibitor like Prilosec. The second and third items are the 2 antibiotics (Biaxin and Amoxycillin). He then informs the patient that he doesn't have to see him for further prescriptions for Prilosec because they make OTC strength. The person is still using Prilosec right?

Fast forward a week when the drug rep comes in to see the doctor and in their conversation, the doctor mentions how he prescribes Prilosec all the time for any one of a variety of symptoms. He also mentions to her (because they're usually women, usually attractive) that even if they dont need prescription strength, he always endorses Prilosec because of how well it works.

I;m not trying to make this into a conspiracy, this isn't about malicious intent. Doctors are handcuffed more than any other profession. They have to follow procedures that are going to ensure minimal lawsuits and everything else is secondary (like helping people). Its just what happens.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1303780853' post='985777']
I;m not trying to make this into a conspiracy, this isn't about malicious intent. Doctors are handcuffed more than any other profession. They have to follow procedures that are going to ensure minimal lawsuits and everything else is secondary (like helping people). Its just what happens.
[/quote]

I refuse to believe that there are that many doctors in the US system that are like that, whether it be "handcuffed" to procedures that are detrimental to patients or constantly worrying about the "lowest common denominator" because they worry more about lawsuits than patient care. I think this minority of doctors that act as you claim exist, but are the decided minority and I have never once felt that way in dealing with any doctor in my 41 years in this country having moved all over the place growing up (and half of those years were with Army doctors....yikes, right?).

[|Tigers Johnson|]

I have acid reflux since I was a teenager... did not realize what it was till I was 24...

I take the prescription Prevacid... works wonders!

I could not even drink water without getting acid reflux before I started taking that...

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1303783442' post='985799']
I refuse to believe that there are that many doctors in the US system that are like that, whether it be "handcuffed" to procedures that are detrimental to patients or constantly worrying about the "lowest common denominator" because they worry more about lawsuits than patient care. I think this minority of doctors that act as you claim exist, but are the decided minority and I have never once felt that way in dealing with any doctor in my 41 years in this country having moved all over the place growing up (and half of those years were with Army doctors....yikes, right?).
[/quote]

OK