Bengals look for an edge

[Arkansas Bengal]

Bengals look for an edge

Posted Feb 21, 2015

Geoff Hobson Editor Bengals.com

With Margus Hunt (above) and Will Clarke, the Bengals hope to generate some pass-rush solutions internally.

INDIANAPOLIS _ Not a bad NFL scouting combine for the Bengals.

Since it looks like reliable tackles, fast receivers, and productive pass rushers can be had in the first three rounds or so of the April 30-May 2 draft, they can pluck what falls to them and keep the rest of the league guessing on what they’ll take when.

With the defensive line set to work out Sunday at Lucas Oil Stadium, NFL Network analyst Mike Mayock christened it “the best edge class in years.”

He’s thinking back to 2011 when the first round yielded a Pro Bowl crop of potent pass rushers darting off the edge to torture quarterbacks great and small. Houston’s J.J. Watt, San Francisco’s Aldon Smith, Denver’s Von Miller, and St. Louis’ Robert Quinn have dominated and wouldn’t it be nice if the Bengals could get an enforcer like that after a season they generated a NFL-low 20 sacks?

But projecting college defenders into 4-3 ends is one of the more difficult exercises of this gig. With the collegiate game now spread out from here to Texas, they’re playing with 240-pound ends and that makes it tough on a Bengals team that recently built its best defenses bookended by ends averaging 6-6 and 265-280 pounds and put their hands on the ground. And if there are long lanky guys, a lot of times now they end up as tight ends.

“They exist,” says Bengals defensive coordinator Paul Guenther. “Typically the high-level guys that have the dimensions for a true 4-3 and they are very good players, they go quickly. When you are looking at maybe a guy who is a 3-4 linebacker, those guys will be sprinkled through the draft, but there are guys in that group that can project as they get bigger if they have the dimensions.  Maybe not the weight or the size or something like that, but he can become that. True 4-3 ends are like really good corners. The guys that are plug and play type guys tend to go really fast. “

Just look at the first three ends projected to come off the board long before the Bengals pick at No. 21. Nebraska’s Randy Gregory showed up here at 235 pounds. Missouri’s Shane Ray is listed at about 245 pounds. Ray and Florida’s Dante Fowler are 6-3.

“Historically, Cincinnati goes for the really long, big athletic guys, and there’s just not a lot of them,” says draft analyst Rob Rang of CBS Sports. “They have gone with guys that are a little raw and need a little more polish.”

Two of those guys, taken in the last two drafts, may be part of the answer as the Bengals try to build back up to that seven- and eight-man rotation that was the key to the previous three seasons in which they averaged 46 sacks. The rotational ends, Robert Geathers and Wallace Gilberry, never really found a rotation.

Margus Hunt, a second-round selection two years ago, and Will Clarke, last year’s third-round pick, played only a combined 251 snaps as they grappled with the loss of three-down end Michael Johnson while dealing with raw players. Hunt was limited to 187 of them because of an ankle injury that took him out of four games.

“We’ve got some young guys that probably needed to play some more,” says Bengals defensive line coach Jay Hayes. “I thought Margus was coming on and developing but the injury slowed him down a little bit. All my guys have worked into the mix. Robert Geathers, Carlos (Dunlap), Mike (Johnson). None of them played a lot right away. You have to earn your time.”

Both Clarke and Hunt figure to play more in 2015. For one thing, even Geathers, who turns 32 in training camp, had a sense after the playoff loss that he might not be back after 11 seasons. For another, Hunt is healthy and Clarke, drafted at about 270 pounds or so, figures to be closer to 290.

But they could use somebody else. Mayock and Rang say there’ll be edge guys beyond No. 21. Indeed, Mayock says they are sprinkled throughout the draft. Rang says they’re not as talented as the Dunlaps and Johnsons yet, but Mayock points to Mississippi State’s Preston Smith, a 6-5, 270-pounder, and UCLA’s Owamagbe Odighizuwa, a 6-4, 266-pounder, as potential second-rounders.

Rang thinks Kentucky’s Alvin “Bud,” Dupree is a potential fit for Cincinnati at No. 21 at 6-4, 270 pounds even though he’s listed as an outside backer. He’s got a knock for not being stout against the run (he’s compared to former Cleveland tweener Kamerion Wimbley), but he’s got the Bengals’ specs and he’s played both 4-3 end in a three-point stance and has stood up.

“I think they’ve got me at linebacker because they’ve seen me do the three-point stance,” Dupree said this week of the Combine. “I’ve got a lot of film in the three-point stance and standing up. I think any team can see that I can play both positions.”

Dupree’s tag-team partner in Lexington, Za’Darius Smith, a 6-5, 270-pound basketball player who didn’t start playing football until his senior season in high school, is another name. He’s been projected as high as the third round and Rang thinks he fits the Bengals.

But he’s not as high on another former basketball player, Oregon’s Arik Armstead, a guy committed to football only for the past year after he left the Ducks’ basketball team. At 6-7, 296 pounds, Armstead, projected somewhere between late first round and the second, is the quintessential project in the Hunt mold. In fact, Rang compares his body to Hunt’s, but he sees his style as more geared to a 3-4 backer.

“I know,” said Armstead with a smile Saturday when he saw a Bengals pullover. “Carlos Dunlap is tall and wasn’t Michael Johnson with them? I'd say it's a fit."

But don’t forget those two guys they just drafted, too. Hunt and Clarke.

“A player or two,” said Hayes when asked how far away they are from another full rotation. “It could be guys in the building if they take care of their business.”

 

 

 

.

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Bengals-look-for-an-edge/ddf5222d-9f54-421b-9d56-d098315887b4

[bengaled]

arik armstead is just shy of 300 lbs while only being 20 years old. he's going to naturally grow and fill out and has no business being discussed as a 4-3 DE, especially a RDE like we need. also, i'd need to see more college production if i were going to spend a 1st round pick on a guy. this guy only had 2.5 sacks last year and 4 for his entire college career. no thanks.

[SocalBengalEd]

arik armstead is just shy of 300 lbs while only being 20 years old. he's going to naturally grow and fill out and has no business being discussed as a 4-3 DE, especially a RDE like we need. also, i'd need to see more college production if i were going to spend a 1st round pick on a guy. this guy only had 2.5 sacks last year and 4 for his entire college career. no thanks.

Agree

[happyrid]

arik armstead is just shy of 300 lbs while only being 20 years old. he's going to naturally grow and fill out and has no business being discussed as a 4-3 DE, especially a RDE like we need. also, i'd need to see more college production if i were going to spend a 1st round pick on a guy. this guy only had 2.5 sacks last year and 4 for his entire college career. no thanks.

 

Yep, just ran in the 5s at the combine too. I don't see it with him.

[happyrid]

Hobson has had a pretty good pulse on things most of the time. Notice he only mentions pass rushers, OTs and WRs as possibilities for their first 3 picks.

 

Not a surprise or anything, but the fact that he doesn't mention LB for example is somewhat meaningful.

[Bengals1181]

 

Yep, just ran in the 5s at the combine too. I don't see it with him.

 

 

x2.  3-4 DE all the way.

 

 

 

He has the same leverage issues Hunt is having.

[happyrid]

Just watched some Bud Dupree. I can see why people like him and I definitely think he is a 1st rounder. Very smooth athlete with a nice burst off the edge in rushing the passer. His best fit is as a 3-4 OLB in my opinion. He is really good in coverage for a guy his size and playing in space. Just a perfect fit for that position.

 

The one thing that scares me a little about projecting him as a 4-3 DE is that he gets pushed backwards pretty easily against the run. He does not set the edge very well which is a big part of the job at DE in our scheme. In one of the games I watched, he lined up against Florida LT DJ Humphries a few times and Humphries was able to easily throw him backwards a few yards on some run plays.

 

Potentially still worth a 1st round pick for a team like the Bengals because he could be a good 3rd down pass rush specialist (and maybe play some LB on other downs?), but I don't see him as an every down DE like Dunlap and MJ in a 4-3. 

[SocalBengalEd]

Dupree will only get stronger and bigger. He should be fine as a RDE in a 4 -3 defense. Avril Bennett MJ and many others grew into that spot in a couple years in this league. I'd would love to draft DE Owa Odighizuwa from UCLA. He's got heavy hands great balance and is really disruptive player. Perfect fit for our 4 3 defense.

[alleycat]

Dupree will only get stronger and bigger. He should be fine as a RDE in a 4 -3 defense. Avril Bennett MJ and many others grew into that spot in a couple years in this league. I'd would love to draft DE Owa Odighizuwa from UCLA. He's got heavy hands great balance and is really disruptive player. Perfect fit for our 4 3 defense.

 

I'll admit, you can see disruption and actual pass rush skills more with Owa. In fact, he does a very nice inside move, which, perhaps because of scheme, you can see a lot more on his tape than a straight outside speed rush  - something I didn't feel like I saw enough of TBH. He's also MUCH MORE stout against the run. 

 

Dupree, on the other hand, does flash a bit more of that speed - but that seems to be his only real trick.

 

IMO if they were both there it would all come down to how the staff thinks they can develop a player and in consideration of the kind of coaching they've already received. 

 

It does seem to me this year, based on Duke Tobin's comments during the combine, that the bengals WILL BE looking at a smaller, faster, speed pass rusher - perhaps even a specialist.

[SocalBengalEd]

I'll admit, you can see disruption and actual pass rush skills more with Owa. In fact, he does a very nice inside move, which, perhaps because of scheme, you can see a lot more on his tape than a straight outside speed rush  - something I didn't feel like I saw enough of TBH. He's also MUCH MORE stout against the run. 
 
Dupree, on the other hand, does flash a bit more of that speed - but that seems to be his only real trick.
 
IMO if they were both there it would all come down to how the staff thinks they can develop a player and in consideration of the kind of coaching they've already received. 
 
It does seem to me this year, based on Duke Tobin's comments during the combine, that the bengals WILL BE looking at a smaller, faster, speed pass rusher - perhaps even a specialist.

Yep. If thats the case expect a Shane Ray, Beasley, Dupree, Gregory type of guy.

[EnglishBengal]

Dupree will only get stronger and bigger. He should be fine as a RDE in a 4 -3 defense. Avril Bennett MJ and many others grew into that spot in a couple years in this league. I'd would love to draft DE Owa Odighizuwa from UCLA. He's got heavy hands great balance and is really disruptive player. Perfect fit for our 4 3 defense.

Two years to grow into the spot.........this isn't going to cut it for a first round pick. We need pass rushers in the worst possible way, but the Bengals also currently need a first round talent who is going to come in and hit the ground running.

[alleycat]

Two years to grow into the spot.........this isn't going to cut it for a first round pick. We need pass rushers in the worst possible way, but the Bengals also currently need a first round talent who is going to come in and hit the ground running.

 

The two guys who will most hit the ground running from a traditional DE spot are Owa from UCLA and Preston Smith from Miss State.  Owa would be a little bit of that smaller faster they are talking about, but is the one guy who isn't on roller skates in the run game out of them.  Preston Smith I've been pimping for weeks, and he has Bengals prototypical DE written all over him.  He compares almost exactly to Robert Geathers when he came in and was young and fresh IMO.  He doesn't have the elite edge speed we want, but he's sneaky with his moves and technique and gets consistent effective pressure.  

 

OTOH, you could argue that one of the smaller guys COULD have an immediate impact if they were used the way Seattle brought on Bruce Irvin.  That is, as a straight specialty rusher.

 

But if you want hit the ground running stud, your best bet in this draft (if one of the WR's don't fall), will be to take an OL, or reach a tiny bit for one of two LBs (McKinney, Kendricks) -- and accept the fact that though they may taken a little early, they will have an immediate impact. 

 

I would normally say DT as well, but Jay Hayes has gone on the record again just last week talking about how guys need to bide their time and earn their way and it takes time yada yada yada...

[happyrid]

 

The two guys who will most hit the ground running from a traditional DE spot are Owa from UCLA and Preston Smith from Miss State.  Owa would be a little bit of that smaller faster they are talking about, but is the one guy who isn't on roller skates in the run game out of them.  Preston Smith I've been pimping for weeks, and he has Bengals prototypical DE written all over him.  He compares almost exactly to Robert Geathers when he came in and was young and fresh IMO.  He doesn't have the elite edge speed we want, but he's sneaky with his moves and technique and gets consistent effective pressure.  

 

OTOH, you could argue that one of the smaller guys COULD have an immediate impact if they were used the way Seattle brought on Bruce Irvin.  That is, as a straight specialty rusher.

 

But if you want hit the ground running stud, your best bet in this draft (if one of the WR's don't fall), will be to take an OL, or reach a tiny bit for one of two LBs (McKinney, Kendricks) -- and accept the fact that though they may taken a little early, they will have an immediate impact. 

 

I would normally say DT as well, but Jay Hayes has gone on the record again just last week talking about how guys need to bide their time and earn their way and it takes time yada yada yada...

 

Agree that a guy like Dupree could make an impact even in a limited role. If I remember correctly, Dunlap played less than 50% of the snaps as a rookie and second year player but he made an instant impact with 8 or 9 sacks as a rookie despite the limited role.

 

In fact, I think even if we did draft a rookie that is more "well rounded" (like Smith or Owa) and better against the run, we'd still probably be looking at a 50% of the snaps type of guy at best. That should be fine though. Wallace Gilberry is still a good player if he's playing 30-40% of the snaps. He just got exposed when he was forced to play 75% of the snaps. I'm not sure if Hunt is ever going to do much, but I thought Will Clarke looked good when he played last year and he could be the early down run stopper type DE with a rookie like Dupree taking most of the 3rd down snaps with a lot of Gilberry mixed in on early downs as well. 

 

The Bengals haven't been too scared to rotate DTs in either. Geno played a lot as a rookie as did Peko and Sims. Thompson and Still were both hurt as rookies so hard to judge off of that. I do think the Bengals like their top 3 DTs when healthy more than the fans do though. Atkins, Peko and Thompson (when all at 100%) is a pretty nice trio. We just need a 4th guy to join the rotation (preferably with some pass rush ability). 

[PatternMaster]

I would rather we go after a guy like Preston Smith, he can play the run or get after the QB.

 

He has the size and strength to play right away.