How far is too far in regards to the Confederate Flag ?

[USN Bengal]

You're mostly right, MC. Pat Cleburne was virtually ostracized for suggesting that the south enlist slave regiments (and free them for their service.) And I do think that a few units of self-organized free negros from Louisiana were declined if my memory serves me. But very late in the war (when it was far too late) laws were passed that allowed for the enlistment and formation of negro units in the south. I want to say early 1865 (Feb/March?)
 
Although I think USN could have argued his point better, I tend to agree with him that the law making rebels U.S. veterans in 1957 has force and should be upheld. Yes, this was the Dixiecrat era but if one were to adopt a Lincolnian view that a ) the south was in rebellion and never recognized as separate from the union in any legal form, and b ) that although the rebels bear moral culpability for their actions defending slavery, the issuance of pardons--wherein anyone formerly in a state of rebellion swears to uphold the Constitution, etc...--effectively and legally granted full citizenship again.
 
And as an aside, let's not forget that racism in the north was/is very virulent, too. The most structurally racist region was/is the south but the most overtly racist place I've ever lived was Philadelphia.
 
Do as everyone here suggests, remove the flag symbolism from all government paraphernalia, leaving cemeteries, etc... alone. Especially Arlington. I personally think that the fact of using the former home (via his wife) of one of the greatest traitors of them all, R.E. Lee, as a cemetery is all the symbolism--and just reward--necessary. If that ain't "rubbing it in" I don't know what is.

USN was lazy to be perfectly honest... thank you for the insight Homer.

[|Bunghole|]

Homer:

 

Do you really view Robert E Lee as "one of the greatest traitors of them all"? I mean, I understand that he's often considered in heroic terms due to his military exploits and he was in fact a helluva general and a lifelong military man, but isn't there some context that somewhat mitigates your view vis a vis the overwhelming loyalty to a state versus the nation as a whole in those times versus what we have today? 

 

I realize that morality regarding race relations was pretty vague in some respects on some sides (kind Southern masters, racist Unionists, etc) but they were in fact different times and even radical abolitionists weren't going to let Fredrick Douglass marry or fuck their white daughter.

 

The only traitorious aspect I can think of with Lee was him being offered the chance to serve in the Union Army by Lincoln and refused, choosing to serve Virginia, a slave state, instead. Many, many people made that choice, are they not "equally traitorious"?

[Jamie_B]

[Homer_Rice]

Homer:

 

Do you really view Robert E Lee as "one of the greatest traitors of them all"?

 

Well, it's only an opinion, but yes I do. I put him right up there with Aaron Burr and Benedict Arnold.

 

I mean, I understand that he's often considered in heroic terms due to his military exploits and he was in fact a helluva general and a lifelong military man, but isn't there some context that somewhat mitigates your view vis a vis the overwhelming loyalty to a state versus the nation as a whole in those times versus what we have today?

 

Interesting point. I do think it true that (Texas excepted, lol) ties to one's state are more blurred via a vis our nation as a whole nowadays. There was a bit more localism then and a lot of that had to do with questions over sovereignty and where it lies. The Civil War settled that question beyond any doubt but if one reviews Madison and others during the debates over ratification of the Constitution, it's pretty clear that it was a "once you're in, there's no leaving" aspect. Madison is explicit on this somewhere and I think this was a key element of the Rhode Island debate. (Don't hold me to the latter precisely as I'm relying on memory.) Furthermore, the ideas on both sides of that debate were as pronounced then as they are now so Lee was aware of the choices he had and their governmental implications. He choose the wrong set of ideas, imo.

 

I realize that morality regarding race relations was pretty vague in some respects on some sides (kind Southern masters, racist Unionists, etc) but they were in fact different times and even radical abolitionists weren't going to let Fredrick Douglass marry or fuck their white daughter.

 

Look, Franklin, Hamilton and many others were right about this in the late 1700s. More right than Jefferson, Washington, etc... . The only difference between then and now is that the idea that races were intrinsically different is slowly being chipped away. And look how far we have yet to go. Even then, those who thought that human nature was of a higher order than mere racial distinction, the problem was not an issue to them. They were in a minority then, as you suggest.

 

The only traitorious aspect I can think of with Lee was him being offered the chance to serve in the Union Army by Lincoln and refused, choosing to serve Virginia, a slave state, instead. Many, many people made that choice, are they not "equally traitorious"?

 

Well, I guess we can put Davis, Stephens and many others right up there, too--civilians and military. But I do make a distinction between those folks and say, many of the less well-informed soldiers that fought for the south. I still consider them morally culpable, just as I hold myself morally culpable for serving in the armed forces at the tail end of Vietnam. And don't forget, many Virginians (and others from other southern states) chose the Union over secession, George Thomas being the one cited most often. Lee gets more derision from me for the reason you cited, though. I'll put it in different words: Lincoln and Scott offered Lee the opportunity to lead the effort to preserve the Union--and to fight against slavery. Instead, he chose to take the lead in the secessionist army raised in Virginia--thereby explicitly choosing rebellion and also choosing, in full knowledge, that he was defending the political economy of Virginia and other secessionist states, which depended upon slavery and the notion that human beings were chattel (which is not associated with northern racism so much.)

 

And, because Lee so often gets a pass because of his demeanor and so-called character, not to mention the mythical symbol he became after the war, he gets to be at the very top of my list, if for no other reason than to puncture that myth and to plant a few seeds of thought in others minds.