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Getting everyone on their feet...


Guest bengalrick

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[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Sep 21 2005, 01:54 PM']So punish [b]THOSE[/b] people, but lets be careful we dont brush [b]EVERYONE[/b] with that wide of a brush.
[right][post="154266"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
That's true, but I don't think he's really trying to label everyone as abusers. I believe he was just looking for a solution so that [b]noone[/b] can abuse them.
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[quote name='steggyD' date='Sep 21 2005, 02:04 PM']That's true, but I don't think he's really trying to label everyone as abusers. I believe he was just looking for a solution so that [b]noone[/b] can abuse them.
[right][post="154277"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


There will always be those who find ways to cheat and abuse the system. No system can ever be perfect, but that doesnt mean we should avoid the system.
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Guest bengalrick
[quote name='steggyD' date='Sep 21 2005, 01:04 PM']That's true, but I don't think he's really trying to label everyone as abusers. I believe he was just looking for a solution so that [b]noone[/b] can abuse them.
[right][post="154277"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

right... keith has a point when he talks about vouchers...

you can't trade vouchers in for money... they should be given vouchers for housing, food, and diapers etc... maybe only for hotel rooms and krogers (or there equivalent in texas/louisiana)...

we can't paint these guys w/ a wide brush... for instance, pat robertson doesn't speak for me as a christan... bob from NO that has spent 2000 dollars at the "big titties" club doesn't speak for most people from NO...
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The FEMA cards that were being handed out had MASTERCARD logos on them. ANY retailer that has a Mastercard logo on their door or window, or virtually any business that has a POS machine (excluding those with exclusivity agreements, like the Olympics, etc.) will accept these cards like cash for any goods or services.

Some people have caught on to this in this thread. Many have not.
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Newsflash!

There are thieves in the world. Some of them come from the lower classes. Some of them are even among our leadership. That's nothing new.

I'm still unclear about the core motivation for your displeasure. I understand the arguments and I understand the black economy. These folks need all kinds of instruments to get back on their feet, including some alienable paper (i.e. cash or derivative.) I have no objections to vouchers for fixed expenses, but that doesn't take care of variable expenses. Also demonstrate for me that vouchers are somehow inherently less prone to corruption.

If you want to rail about thievery, then I'm with you. But, if you want to deprive a class of folks of a needed instrumentality for the sake of a some abusers, then you'll have to give a better argument than you have to this point.
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Guest bengalrick
[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Sep 21 2005, 07:14 PM']Newsflash!

There are thieves in the world. Some of them come from the lower classes. Some of them are even among our leadership. That's nothing new.

I'm still unclear about the core motivation for your displeasure. I understand the arguments and I understand the black economy. These folks need all kinds of instruments to get back on their feet, including some alienable paper (i.e. cash or derivative.) I have no objections to vouchers for fixed expenses, but that doesn't take care of variable expenses. Also demonstrate for me that vouchers are somehow inherently less prone to corruption.

If you want to rail about thievery, then I'm with you. But, if you want to deprive a class of folks of a needed instrumentality for the sake of a some abusers, then you'll have to give a better argument than you have to this point.
[right][post="154543"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

but homer, these people (unfortinately) aren't living like they did 4 weeks ago... what more do they need until they get home, other than housing, clothes, food, and necessisities? at least for what the government should be paying for... i also see your point, and unfortinately there are theives everywhere and we have to deal w/ that... but giving a theif the same thing as cash is like giving an arsonist gas and a match... some people will still get other things, even w/ vouchers, but i guarentee the numbers would have been emensly (sp?) lower...

now i have to explain to you, how vouchers would be less prone to corruption... first of all, they can't be cashed in... secondly, most things that are done illegally are done w/ cash, and it would be very hard (but far from impossible) to get cash back for the vouchers... much harder than a mastercard, where you could just buy something and return it w/ a receipt at most places, and get a full refund in cash... people would have to take somethink like half value to random people for cash for a voucher... i think that would cut the corruption down...
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[quote name='bengalrick' date='Sep 21 2005, 07:30 PM']but homer, these people (unfortinately) aren't living like they did 4 weeks ago... what more do they need until they get home, other than housing, clothes, food, and necessisities? at least for what the government should be paying for... i also see your point, and unfortinately there are theives everywhere and we have to deal w/ that... but giving a theif the same thing as cash is like giving an arsonist gas and a match... some people will still get other things, even w/ vouchers, but i guarentee the numbers would have been emensly (sp?) lower...

now i have to explain to you, how vouchers would be less prone to corruption... first of all, they can't be cashed in... secondly, most things that are done illegally are done w/ cash, and it would be very hard (but far from impossible) to get cash back for the vouchers... much harder than a mastercard, where you could just buy something and return it w/ a receipt at most places, and get a full refund in cash... people would have to take somethink like half value to random people for cash for a voucher... i think that would cut the corruption down...
[right][post="154550"][/post][/right][/quote]

I don't think you are a cruel person by nature, br. So I ask you to look at the implicit cruelty of your remarks. What more do they need? Maybe a couple of dollars in the wallet to handle expenses while being cast adrift into a mostly impersonal bureaucracy. Maybe even a spare dollar or two to take the kids to a movie or to McD's or to do something that might restore a small sense of belonging in a society that seems to have stomped on them while they are down. Think back to the last time you were penniless. Did it affect your psychological outlook any? Now, imagine that feeling in the context these folks are in. Does a little cash restore even a small semblance of self-determination into these folks lives?

I understand vouchers, br. I was in the military, remember? :D

The problems associated with the corrupt use of vouchers is higher up the "food chain" so to speak. But that would make it white collar crime and thus, apparently, of no use in bashing the lower classes who have been displaced. :whistle:

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[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Sep 21 2005, 08:14 PM']If you want to rail about thievery, then I'm with you. But, if you want to deprive a class of folks of a needed instrumentality for the sake of a some abusers, then you'll have to give a better argument than you have to this point.
[right][post="154543"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Homer - We stand together.

I don't have any objections to FEMA's checks. Those go out later, after claims have been filed, to people who have had a loss, and FEMA helps to restore their possesions. Now, I don't like that memo that went out with directives for cashing them, but that's a different story.

BUT, the debit cards were an issue of reactive policy. And I can assure you that if Rita hits Texas, does the same damage or worse, we still won't see these $2K debit cards again. They were bad policy, and probably part of the reason Mike Brown was relieved of his duty (although not a large part of the reasoning).

So....that's that, until next time.
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I thought the memo was illustrative, too. Relaxing the standards may not be elegant, but under these circumstances, I'm not sure what else could be done. I'm sure we'd all like to see better checks and balances in place to deal with stuff like this, but on the other hand, the magnitude of this thing is pretty overwhelming and everyone knows that bureaucracies aren't exactly fast-moving in their responses.

Insofar as getting some disposable cash into the hands of those who needed it, for both practical and psychological reasons (and I do not discount the latter), I'm not sure how one could do that better than debit cards, a cut of which, by the way, ends up in the pockets of finance, whereas plain old cash would not. Although, because these people were dispersed so widely, there surely was some inherent unfairness to those who were not on the scene and could have used the money.
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Sep 21 2005, 10:41 PM']I thought the memo was illustrative, too. Relaxing the standards may not be elegant, but under these circumstances, I'm not sure what else could be done. I'm sure we'd all like to see better checks and balances in place to deal with stuff like this, but on the other hand, the magnitude of this thing is pretty overwhelming and [b]everyone knows that bureaucracies aren't exactly fast-moving in their responses.[/b]

Insofar as getting some disposable cash into the hands of those who needed it, for both practical and psychological reasons (and I do not discount the latter), I'm not sure how one could do that better than debit cards, a cut of which, by the way, ends up in the pockets of finance, whereas plain old cash would not. Although, because these people were dispersed so widely, there surely was some inherent unfairness to those who were not on the scene and could have used the money.
[right][post="154621"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


Which to me is the point in terms of why the response was slow, but also why this "fast cash" is a nessacity. Your dead right here homer.
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Guest bengalrick

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='Sep 21 2005, 08:18 PM']I don't think you are a cruel person by nature, br. So I ask you to look at the implicit cruelty of your remarks. What more do they need? Maybe a couple of dollars in the wallet to handle expenses while being cast adrift into a mostly impersonal bureaucracy. Maybe even a spare dollar or two to take the kids to a movie or to McD's or to do something that might restore a small sense of belonging in a society that seems to have stomped on them while they are down. Think back to the last time you were penniless. Did it affect your psychological outlook any? Now, imagine that feeling in the context these folks are in. Does a little cash restore even a small semblance of self-determination into these folks lives?

I understand vouchers, br. I was in the military, remember? :D

The problems associated with the corrupt use of vouchers is higher up the "food chain" so to speak. But that would make it white collar crime and thus, apparently, of no use in bashing the lower classes who have been displaced. :whistle:
[right][post="154580"][/post][/right][/quote]

you've got a point about having a dollar in your pocket... i guess we have to find some sort of happy median in there somehow... it can be done i think...

i am not trying to make this problem a low/high class or white/black thing... i'm trying to make it fair, yet harder to corrupt the system...

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[quote name='bengalrick' date='Sep 22 2005, 10:38 AM']you've got a point about having a dollar in your pocket... i guess we have to find some sort of happy median in there somehow... it can be done i think...

i am not trying to make this problem a low/high class or white/black thing... i'm trying to make it fair, yet harder to corrupt the system...
[right][post="154855"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


Untill you make it harder to corrupt the hearts of men, you will have a hard time to make it harder to corrupt their systems.
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