Why do people still believe in and support W.

[Jamie_B]

When you say establishment clause in reference to the 1st admenment you talk about the the idea of not establishing a national church, I have no issue with that and agree with it, however lets not ignore the whole admentment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, [color="blue"]or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.[/color]"

As far as a "evangelicle theocracy", what exactly leads you to believe that this is the case? What event or policy that has been put forth shows that this is being attempted? I've seen nothing of the sort.

However there have been attempts at eroding the rights of the religous, Christian or otherwise, to express themselves. Here is a recent one.

[url="http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/news/story?id=2188313&CMP=OTC-DT9705204233"]http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/news/stor...TC-DT9705204233[/url]

Now explain to me why someone should not be allowed to pray or lead a prayer so long as that prayer is voluntary?

[scrotos]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Oct 14 2005, 04:00 PM']Perhaps a better article for you then.

[url="http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=9"]http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/sear...hp?ResourceID=9[/url]

My only point I'm trying to make is the idea that SCS is only there to keep us from having a national denomination, not to pull religon from the public square.

Edit: So I would ask then how is one denomination, or faith for that matter, have "power" over another? Show me some leagal cases that show this.
[right][post="169457"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

I don't want to pull religion from the public square either (we wouldn't be having this lively debate if we did [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/3.gif[/img] ). But I also don't like the slippery slope where a government can fund "faith-based" organizations. Funding is usually finite and I don't want an elected official deciding which organization worships God the correct way, giving them the bulk of the funding....not saying it would, but it might.

Given the chance to fund one last faith-based project.....who gets it in the current Adminstration? A Baptist organization or a Catholic organization? (I don't even mention a Jewish organization, because they wouldn't have a chance).

For a decent rebuttal website about the perils of ignoring SCS, please read:

[url="http://www.pbuuc.org/worship/sermons/2001sermons/jun242001.html"]This Site[/url]

It also has some killer quotes from one of my favs J. Madison, who unfortunately had a hate on for another of my favorites, J. Adams.

As far as one denomination over another... this might not be court case struggle, but rather a political influence and money struggle (see the above "faith-based" organization paragraph)

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='scrotos' date='Oct 14 2005, 04:48 PM']I don't want to pull religion from the public square either (we wouldn't be having this lively debate if we did  [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/3.gif[/img] ).  But I also don't like the slippery slope where a government can fund "faith-based" organizations.  Funding is usually finite and I don't want an elected official deciding which organization worships God the correct way, giving them the bulk of the funding....not saying it would, but it might.

Given the chance to fund one last faith-based project.....who gets it in the current Adminstration?  A Baptist organization or a Catholic organization?  (I don't even mention a Jewish organization, because they wouldn't have a chance).

For a decent rebuttal website about the perils of ignoring SCS, please read:

[url="http://www.pbuuc.org/worship/sermons/2001sermons/jun242001.html"]This Site[/url]

It also has some killer quotes from one of my favs J. Madison, who unfortunately had a hate on for another of my favorites, J. Adams.

As far as one denomination over another... this might not be court case struggle, but rather a political influence and money struggle (see the above "faith-based" organization paragraph)
[right][post="169479"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

I agree with you in terms of not allowing one faith to get money over another faith, but is so far as I know or have seen, there hasnt been a case that this has happened where as one faith has been leagally blocked from the money that another faith has access to. If it has I'd be upset about it, so if I missed it please enlighten me.

[url="http://www.faithbasedcommunityinitiatives.org/"]http://www.faithbasedcommunityinitiatives.org/[/url]

Edit: As a matter of fact here is the exucitve order saying that there must be equal protection.

[url="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/12/20021212-6.html"]http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...20021212-6.html[/url]

[Jamie_B]

Also in reference to your point about the Military benifits, under bush as the article said the benifits have increased much more than they did under Clinton.

[KMHBB]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Oct 14 2005, 03:47 PM']When you say establishment clause in reference to the 1st admenment you talk about the the idea of not establishing a national church, I have no issue with that and agree with it, however lets not ignore the whole admentment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, [color="blue"]or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.[/color]"

As far as a "evangelicle theocracy", what exactly leads you to believe that this is the case? What event or policy that has been put forth shows that this is being attempted? I've seen nothing of the sort.

However there have been attempts at eroding the rights of the religous, Christian or otherwise, to express themselves. Here is a recent one.

[url="http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/news/story?id=2188313&CMP=OTC-DT9705204233"]http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/news/stor...TC-DT9705204233[/url]

Now explain to me why someone should not be allowed to pray or lead a prayer so long as that prayer is voluntary?
[right][post="169478"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
If you cannot see why so called voluntary prayer in a public school is wrong you have the blinders on.
1.) what chance would any desenting religious minority on the team have of actually not participating. cmmmon we all know that what the coach says goes.
voluntary prayer in public schools is a falacy. I would have no objection to a moment of silence which would allow anyone to pray to whomever they may like or choose not to pray at all.

2.)my tax dollars pay for those schools and I might feel like it is a violation of my 1st amendment rights to force my presbeterian son to participate in a babtist prayer (just for example), or god forbid im a muslim and my son happens to participate in sports. public schools are gov. funded and therefore subject to the legal square not the fully open public square. If the coach wants to have everyone pray before a game and lead that prayer he should coach at a private religous school.

3.)I will be the very first one to defend "free exercise therof" I recently read a case where a group was using parkland that they had reserved ( much like you can reserve a section for family reunions)for babtisms and someone sued. They were neither forcing anyone to attend or participate or directly using tax dollars to fund the babtisms therefore they were expressing their first amendment rights, and I believe the aclu backed them and they won but I would have to check.

See scrotos's posts for an answer on evangelicle theocracy ?. Not to mention surrounding oneself with the likes of pat robertson or essentially declaring your presidency as annointed by god and jesus.

"The very first act of the new Bush administration was to have a Protestant Evangelist minister officially dedicate the inauguration to Jesus Christ, whom he declared to be 'our savior.' Invoking 'the Father, the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ' and 'the Holy Spirit,' Billy Graham's son, the man selected by President George W. Bush to bless his presidency, excluded the tens of millions of Americans who are Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Shintoists, Unitarians, agnostics, and atheists from his blessing by his particularistic and parochial language.
"The plain message conveyed by the new administration is that George W. Bush's America is a Christian nation and that non-Christians are welcome into the tent so long as they agree to accept their status as a tolerated minority rather than as fully equal citizens. In effect, Bush is saying: 'This is our home, and in our home we pray to Jesus as our savior. If you want to be a guest in our home, you must accept the way we pray.'"
-- Alan M. Dershowitz, in "Bush Starts Off by Defying the the Constitution," Los Angeles Times, January 24, 2001

[Jamie_B]

Ill adress this more sometime over the weekend or next week, Im heading out for the day and DC traffic is horrible, so I wolnt be home for awhile, then meeting up with an old roomate who is in town.

You fellas have a good day, well discuss it more later.

And Who-Dey on Sunday!!

[-Dan_Bengals_FL-]

[quote name='GoBengals' date='Oct 14 2005, 12:28 PM']hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha

i hope bush dies soon.
[right][post="169357"][/post][/right][/quote]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]

Almost pissed my pants. Funniest thing I've heard, since BJ called the girls in the hall bitches.

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Oct 14 2005, 05:21 PM']Ill adress this more sometime over the weekend or next week, Im heading out for the day and DC traffic is horrible, so I wolnt be home for awhile, then meeting up with an old roomate who is in town.

You fellas have a good day, well discuss it more later.

And Who-Dey on Sunday!!
[right][post="169488"][/post][/right][/quote]

Who-Dey Jamie. Even if our country is fucked up, at least we have the Bengals.

[Guest bengalrick]

nothing funnier than wishing the president would die... [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/30.gif[/img]

[Lawman]

[quote]"The plain message conveyed by the new administration is that George W. Bush's America is a Christian nation and that non-Christians are welcome into the tent so long as they agree to accept their status as a tolerated minority rather than as fully equal citizens. In effect, Bush is saying: 'This is our home, and in our home we pray to Jesus as our savior. If you want to be a guest in our home, you must accept the way we pray.'"[/quote]

You are so full of shit.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Oct 14 2005, 03:00 PM']Perhaps a better article for you then.

[url="http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=9"]http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/sear...hp?ResourceID=9[/url]

My only point I'm trying to make is the idea that SCS is only there to keep us from having a national denomination, not to pull religon from the public square.

Edit: So I would ask then how is one denomination, or faith for that matter, have "power" over another? Show me some leagal cases that show this.
[right][post="169457"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Jamie,

If I understand the thrust of your question, then I would recommend a review of English history from the period of the Tudors onward. There is a lot fo grist there to think about, particularly the relationship between the Catholic factions and the (developing) Episcopal factions. Perfect intersection of church and state/politics in this context, because the whole controversy about Henry VIII is wrapped up in both political and reigious causes. In fact, even to this day, the head of the Church of England is the Queen (or King). It's why I left the Episcopalian Church so many years ago. I don't need no stinkin' Queen to act as my intercessor to the divine!

How the various North American colonies developed views about Church and State are directly related to the events in England. New England Puritans, Mid-Atlantic Quakers and Catholics, Southern Church of England elites (especially among the FFV) all had a particular relationship to both the religious and political trends in the home country.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Oct 14 2005, 03:59 PM']Also in reference to your point about the Military benifits, under bush as the article said the benifits have increased much more than they did under Clinton.
[right][post="169483"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

If I remember correctly, this is due to Congress leading the Executive and not the other way around.

[Lawman]

[quote]I have even heard one member of the military ( who I have the utmost respect for ) defend him tooth and nail and complain how much Clinton sucked as a CIC.[/quote]

I defend him from false accusations and character assassination, mainly promulgated by a media I do not trust. I do not agree on everything he does, this last Supreme Court Justice Nominee as an example.

No, he does not have the charisma or gift of speech as Clinton, but that's fine with me. To be honest, I think some of his people have tried to polish him up and this has made him look bad. They should of left him alone and let him be natural.

Clinton sucked ass as Commander-in-Chief. The man was a disgrace, but more and more I am leaning toward placing this blame on his puppet-master wife Hillary.

Launching cruise-missle into an Al-Qaida training facility compound at night, does not make a Commander-in-Chief. Yes, I blame 9/11 on Bill Clinton. His cutting of funding into Intelligence funding, specifically HUMINT is the primary blame.


We can talk later about this 1993 trade agreement with China. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/37.gif[/img]

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='Oct 14 2005, 05:29 PM']Also in reference to your point about the Military benifits, under bush as the article said the benifits have increased much more than they did under Clinton.
[right][post="169483"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Who cares if they increased more than they did under Clinton, it's NOT ENOUGH! Why must people continually excuse everything Bush does since Clinton did it.

Ask the fellas at the exits of highways who are in wheelchairs if they are currently enjoying their expanded benefits.

[|Bunghole|]

Unbelievable what some of you believe. Just....unbelievably devoid of rational thought. Insight into the way our military works vis a vis our political machine is your first step. I can no longer expend much energy defending the current state of our country versus what the alternative might be under different leaders.
9/11 is not a governmental cudgel to beat you over the head like your blessed media would have you believe....if it doesn't bleed, it doesn't sell papers or TV ad spots....
Fuck this conversation. I cannot bite at the lure any longer, for the people who choose to blame a President or their government for everything that is wrong in the world is just....stupid.
Bush is supremely imperfect in an imperfect world. Many of these allegations are fabrications and lies, just as surely as many things that come from our govt are fabrications and lies.
Ya gotta sift through the pebbles to get to the gold....
We are still the greatest nation on Earth. Don't let media types, subversives and ne'er do wells convince you otherwise.
And quit blaming the soldier, some of you.....

[Kool Keith]

[quote name='Bunghole' date='Oct 15 2005, 01:20 AM'][b]Unbelievable what some of you believe.  Just....unbelievably devoid of rational thought.[/b]  Insight into the way our military works vis a vis our political machine is your first step.  I can no longer expend much energy defending the current state of our country versus what the alternative might be under different leaders.
9/11 is not a governmental cudgel to beat you over the head like your blessed media would have you believe....if it doesn't bleed, it doesn't sell papers or TV ad spots....
[b]Fuck this conversation.[/b] [b]I cannot bite at the lure any longer, for the people who choose to blame a President or their government for everything that is wrong in the world is just....stupid.[/b]
[b]Bush is supremely imperfect in an imperfect world.  Many of these allegations are fabrications and lies, just as surely as many things that come from our govt are fabrications and lies.[/b]
Ya gotta sift through the pebbles to get to the gold....
[color="red"]We are[/color][color="gray"] still the greatest[/color] [color="blue"]nation on Earth.[/color]  [b]Don't let media types, subversives and ne'er do wells convince you otherwise.
And quit blaming the soldier, some of you.....[/b]
[right][post="169643"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


Good Post.

I've reduced my output to the J&D section because there just aren't enough uncontaminated brains. There are some that will think for themselves, listen to 2 or more sides of an issue, and can reason and rationalize....but not [i]that[/i] many.

Hey Bunghole....Did you know that George Bush has infected over 3 million Africans with Aids???? All by himself. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/32.gif[/img]

[BirdmanND]

[quote name='BlackJesus' date='Oct 14 2005, 12:07 PM'][b][color="red"]You forgot his real accomplishments[/color]
- Took an 8 Trillion dollar surplus - turned it into a 3 trillion $ Deficit
- Has increased the amount of people in Poverty every year he has been President
- Claimed Saddam couldn't get WMD's.... then watched N Korea aquire Nukes
- Has created an environment where the Army can no longer meet recruitment standards
- Has not found Osama.... even though he vowed to ...... He did find his fathers ex friend dictator Saddam in Iraq though
- Has turned Iraq from being a secular stable country ruled by an Asshole dictator like dozens of our other allies..... into a Jihad magnet and splintering quasi war zone... leaving 2,000 Americans to die, and over 50,000 wounded many without Limbs .... now the country will be in chaos for decades... and we may be stuck there for years
- Gave over 70 % of all his tax cuts to the top 1 % of wage earners.... The Paris Hiltons of the world now have a few extra billion while New Orleans sits under water and sewage without adequate funds to even pay their city workers
- Has consitently given No bid contracts to Haliburton and Bechtel.... enriching Cheney to the tune of 10 million $..... Haliburtons stock is up 300 %
- Placed a Arabian horse expert in charge of Fema.... then fiddled while New Orleans drown
- Sat in his Piss for 7 minutes while a plane hurdled into the Pentagon
- Has squandered the U.S.'s reputation throughout the World.... and set the nation back a generation as far as how we are viewed abroad....
- Created thousands of future Osamas..... who will be attacking us for decades....
- Now has placed his Personal DUI lawyer up for the Supreme Court
- Done nothing to aid the Darfur genocide... and now has it buried at the UN by Bolton
- Set Civil Liberites back to the McCarthy Era with the Patriot Act[/b]
[right][post="169336"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


Don't forget his environmental "achievements" like Kyoto.

Not to mention the Patriot act.

And all the other things. Just to many to even count. How could we as a nation be so stupid as to re-elect this man. Even if you believe in the Republican philosophy of government, you have to recognise that Bust is simply a terrible leader who only gets by because of his ability to schmooze. Not my idea of a president.

Edit:
My bad, didn't see your second post. All good points.

Also, the reason we didn't "take care of" Saddam in 91 was because the old Bush realized that an extended occupation of Iraq would not be feasable. Go figure.

[Guest ONYX]

[color="red"][b]I found these opinions to be quite interesting[/b][/color]

At a National Organization for Women forum for the Democratic contenders Friday night, political satirist Elayne Boosler said Americans support for Bush resembled [b]"the battered woman syndrome"[/b], as she put it, [b]"loyalty to a man who, under the guise of protecting her, is kicking the crap out of her because she actually has no constitution left with which to walk out."[/b]


[color="red"][b]There is also a good column from Eric Margolis.[/b][/color]

[url="http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives/2004/10/why_republicans.php"]http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives/2004/...republicans.php[/url]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote]As far as a "evangelicle theocracy", [color="blue"]what exactly leads you to believe that this is the case?[/color] What event or policy that has been put forth shows that this is being attempted? I've seen nothing of the sort.[/quote]

[b]JamieB......[/b]

[b]--> During his 2000 presidential campaign, George W. Bush said he'd been “called” to seek higher office and talked openly about his faith, claiming in the debates that Jesus was his favorite philosopher. [/b]

[i]''I believe God wants me to run for president.” [/i]
[b]--- George W. Bush [/b]



[i]"Events aren't moved by blind change and chance'', but by ''the hand of a just and faithful God.'' [/i]
[b]--- George W. Bush[/b]


[i]"Therefore, I, George W. Bush, Governor of Texas, do hereby proclaim June 10, 2000, Jesus Day in Texas and urge the appropriate recognition whereof, In official recognition whereof, I hereby affix my signature this 17th day of April, 2000." [/i]
[b]--- George W. Bush, "Jesus Day 2000" Proclamation [/b]



[i]“God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them.” [/i]
[b]--- George W. Bush [/b]



[i]“I believe that God has planted in every heart the desire to live in freedom.”[/i]
[b]--- George W. Bush[/b]



[i]“Our Nation is chosen by God and commissioned by history to be a model to the world of justice.”[/i]
[b]--- George W. Bush[/b]



[i]“The United States has been called upon to bring God’s gift of liberty to every human being in the world.” [/i]
[b]--- George W. Bush[/b]



[i]“We are in a conflict between good and evil, and we will call evil by its name.” [/i][b]
--- George W. Bush[/b]



[i]“I think when it’s all said and done, the Iraqis are going to look back and say thank God for America.” [/i]
[b]--- George W Bush[/b]



[i]"Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them."[/i]
[b]--- George W. Bush (Sept 20th 2001)
(he then goes on to prove this by dropping bombs from the clouds and hoping that God directs them towards intended targets)[/b]



[i]"We can be confident in the ways of Providence. ... Behind all of life and all of history, there's a dedication and purpose, set by the hand of a just and faithful God." [/i]
[b]--- George W. Bush (National Prayer Breakfast) [/b]



[i]"God speaks through me" [/i]
[b]--- George W. Bush (6//9/2004)[/b]



[i]"He is a man of the spirit" [/i]
[b]--- George Bush Sr. referring to his Son[/b]


[b]---> In response to the June 26, 2002, ruling by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco that the words “under God,” added in 1954 to the Pledge of Allegiance, violated the constitutional principle of separation of church and state, President Bush said: “The decision points up the fact that we need common-sense judges who understand that our rights were derived from God. Those are the kind of judges I intend to put on the bench.” [/b]


[b]--->[color="red"] Bush’s Thoecratic agenda thus includes: [/color]
Conservative pro-life judicial nominations; new HUD regulations that allow federal grants for construction of “social service” facilities at religious institutions; a ban on human cloning and “partial birth” abortion; a sweeping program to allow churches, to use federal funds to administer social-welfare programs; strengthened limits on stem-cell research; increased funding to teach sexual abstinence in schools, rather than safer sex and pregnancy prevention; foreign-aid policies that stress right-to-life themes, and federal money for prison programs (like the one in Texas) that use Christian tough love in an effort to lower recidivism rates among convicts.[/b]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote]At a National Organization for Women forum for the Democratic contenders Friday night, political satirist Elayne Boosler said Americans support for Bush resembled "the battered woman syndrome", as she put it, "loyalty to a man who, under the guise of protecting her, is kicking the crap out of her because she actually has no constitution left with which to walk out."[/quote]


[b]I think there is good Evidence to show that Bush a Lifelong Alcoholic has started to hit the Bottle again as well.....

Think about the Behavior of a Drunk Person (I know this well see Video from Jax)[/b]

[img]http://www.topplebush.com/humor/drunkdriver.jpg[/img]

Drunk people....

[b]--> Run up tabs they can't pay
(3 trillion dollar debt)

--> Pick fights with people who didn't attack them
(Iraq)

--> Are notorious for Showing up late
(New Orleans, 9/11 piss stain)

--> Have Slurred Speech and use jumbled language
(see any talk from last 5 years)

--> Like to be isolated by themself
(stays at Ranch for weeks)

--> Don't show up for work
(month long vacations)

--> Usually need others to help them find their way
(Rove=Brian)[/b]



[color="red"][i]Drunks are awesome at parties...... not sure if they should control most of the worlds Nukes and the worlds largest army though [/i][/color]

[Guest ONYX]

[quote name='BlackJesus' date='Oct 15 2005, 05:10 AM'][b]I think there is good Evidence to show that Bush a Lifelong Alcoholic has started to hit the Bottle again as well.....

Think about the Behavior of a Drunk Person (I know this well see Video from Jax)[/b]

[img]http://www.topplebush.com/humor/drunkdriver.jpg[/img]

Drunk people....

[b]--> Run up tabs they can't pay 
(3 trillion dollar debt)

--> Pick fights with people who didn't attack them
(Iraq)

--> Are notorious for Showing up late
(New Orleans, 9/11 piss stain)

--> Have Slurred Speech and use jumbled language
(see any talk from last 5 years)

--> Like to be isolated by themself
(stays at Ranch for weeks)

--> Don't show up for work
(month long vacations)

--> Usually need others to help them find their way
(Rove=Brian)[/b]
[color="red"][i]Drunks are awesome at parties...... not sure if they should control most of the worlds Nukes and the worlds largest army though [/i][/color]
[right][post="169666"][/post][/right][/quote]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]

[Guest BengalBacker]

[quote name='Bunghole' date='Oct 15 2005, 12:20 AM']Unbelievable what some of you believe.  Just....unbelievably devoid of rational thought.  Insight into the way our military works vis a vis our political machine is your first step.  I can no longer expend much energy defending the current state of our country versus what the alternative might be under different leaders.
9/11 is not a governmental cudgel to beat you over the head like your blessed media would have you believe....if it doesn't bleed, it doesn't sell papers or TV ad spots....
Fuck this conversation. I cannot bite at the lure any longer, for the people who choose to blame a President or their government for everything that is wrong in the world is just....stupid.
Bush is supremely imperfect in an imperfect world.  Many of these allegations are fabrications and lies, just as surely as many things that come from our govt are fabrications and lies.
Ya gotta sift through the pebbles to get to the gold....
We are still the greatest nation on Earth.  Don't let media types, subversives and ne'er do wells convince you otherwise.
And quit blaming the soldier, some of you.....
[right][post="169643"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Great post. I stopped arguing a long time ago. So many people have lost all objectivity and rationale. Sad really.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[color="red"][b]speaking of the Devil [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [/b][/color]


[quote][u]BUSH'S BOOZE CRISIS
By JENNIFER LUCE and DON GENTILE
Published on: 09/21/2005[/u]


Faced with the biggest crisis of his political life, President Bush has hit the bottle again, The National Enquirer can reveal.

Bush, who said he quit drinking the morning after his 40th birthday, has started boozing amid the Katrina catastrophe.

Family sources have told how the 59-year-old president was caught by First Lady Laura downing a shot of booze at their family ranch in Crawford, Texas, when he learned of the hurricane disaster.

His worried wife yelled at him: "Stop, George."

Following the shocking incident, disclosed here for the first time, Laura privately warned her husband against "falling off the wagon" and vowed to travel with him more often so that she can keep an eye on Dubya, the sources add.

"When the levees broke in New Orleans, it apparently made him reach for a shot," said one insider. "He poured himself a Texas-sized shot of straight whiskey and tossed it back. The First Lady was shocked and shouted: "Stop George!"

"Laura gave him an ultimatum before, 'It's Jim Beam or me.' She doesn't want to replay that nightmare — especially now when it's such tough going for her husband."

Bush is under the worst pressure of his two terms in office and his popularity is near an all-time low. The handling of the Katrina crisis and troop losses in Iraq have fueled public discontent and pushed Bush back to drink.

A Washington source said: "The sad fact is that he has been sneaking drinks for weeks now. Laura may have only just caught him — but the word is his drinking has been going on for a while in the capital. He's been in a pressure cooker for months.

"The war in Iraq, the loss of American lives, has deeply affected him. He takes every soldier's life personally. It has left him emotionally drained.

The result is he's taking drinks here and there, likely in private, to cope. "And now with the worst domestic crisis in his administration over Katrina, you pray his drinking doesn't go out of control."

Another source said: "I'm only surprised to hear that he hadn't taken a shot sooner. Before Katrina, he was at his wit's end. I've known him for years. He's been a good ol' Texas boy forever. George had a drinking problem for years that most professionals would say needed therapy. He doesn't believe in it [therapy], he never got it. He drank his way through his youth, through college and well into his thirties. Everyone's drinking around him."

Another source said: "A family member told me they fear George is 'falling apart.' The First Lady has been assigned the job of gatekeeper." Bush's history of drinking dates back to his youth. Speaking of his time as a young man in the National Guard, he has said: "One thing I remember, and I'm most proud of, is my drinking and partying. Those were the days my friends. Those were the good old days!"

Age 26 in 1972, he reportedly rounded off a night's boozing with his 16-year-old brother Marvin by challenging his father to a fight.

On November 1, 2000, on the eve of his first presidential election, Bush acknowledged that in 1976 he was arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol near his parents' home in Maine. Age 30 at the time, Bush pleaded guilty and paid a $150 fine. His driving privileges were temporarily suspended in Maine.

"I'm not proud of that," he said. "I made some mistakes. I occasionally drank too much, and I did that night. I learned my lesson." In another interview around that time, he said: "Well, I don't think I had an addiction. You know it's hard for me to say. I've had friends who were, you know, very addicted... and they required hitting bottom (to start) going to AA. I don't think that was my case."

During his 2000 presidential campaign, there were also persistent questions about past cocaine use. Eventually Bush denied using cocaine after 1992, then quickly extended the cocaine-free period back to 1974, when he was 28.

Dr. Justin Frank, a Washington D.C. psychiatrist and author of Bush On The Couch: Inside The Mind Of The President, told The National Enquirer: "I do think that Bush is drinking again. Alcoholics who are not in any program, like the President, have a hard time when stress gets to be great.

"I think it's a concern that Bush disappears during times of stress. He spends so much time on his ranch. It's very frightening."[/quote]

[url="http://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebrity/63426"]article[/url]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote]So many people have lost all objectivity and rationale. Sad really.[/quote]

[i][b]Backer you obviously believe that people can enter a state where they lose all ability to see reality.....

so is it possible that you have ?


Also me and you agree on people and Religion -- we both see them as blind to reality.... and isn't it funny that those same people who believe in fundamentalist (stop the Gays) flying carpenter man Gods.... also give their undying devotion to Bushs version of Reality ???[/b][/i]

[Guest ONYX]

And finally, New Rule: America must recall the president. That's what this country needs. A good, old-fashioned, California-style recall election! Complete with Gary Coleman, porno actresses and action film stars. And just like Schwarzenegger's predecessor here in California, George Bush is now so unpopular, he must defend his jog against...Russell Crowe. Because at this point, I want a leader who will throw a phone at somebody. In fact, let's have only phone throwers. Naomi Campbell can be the vice-president!

Now, I kid, but seriously, Mr. President, this job can't be fun for you anymore. There's no more money to spend. You used up all of that. You can't start another war because you also used up the army. And now, darn the luck, the rest of your term has become the Bush family nightmare: helping poor people.

Yeah, listen to your mom. The cupboard's bare, the credit card's maxed out, and no one is speaking to you: mission accomplished! Now it's time to do what you've always done best: lose interest and walk away. Like you did with your military service. And the oil company. And the baseball team. It's time. Time to move on and try the next fantasy job. How about cowboy or spaceman?!

Now, I know what you're saying. You're saying that there's so many other things that you, as president, could involve yourself in...Please don't. I know, I know, there's a lot left to do. There's a war with Venezuela, and eliminating the sales tax on yachts. Turning the space program over to the church. And Social Security to Fannie Mae. Giving embryos the vote. But, sir, none of that is going to happen now. Why? Because you govern like Billy Joel drives. You've performed so poorly I'm surprised you haven't given yourself a medal. You're a catastrophe that walks like a man.

Herbert Hoover was a shitty president, but even he never conceded an entire metropolis to rising water and snakes.

On your watch, we've lost almost all of our allies, the surplus, four airliners, two Trade Centers, a piece of the Pentagon and the City of New Orleans...Maybe you're just not lucky!

I'm not saying you don't love this country. I'm just wondering how much worse it could be if you were on the other side. So, yes, God does speak to you, and what he's saying is, "Take a hint."

-----------[b]Bill Maher, host of Real Time on HBO[/b]

[big_dish]

[quote name='Bunghole' date='Oct 15 2005, 12:20 AM']Unbelievable what some of you believe.  Just....unbelievably devoid of rational thought.  Insight into the way our military works vis a vis our political machine is your first step.  I can no longer expend much energy defending the current state of our country versus what the alternative might be under different leaders.
9/11 is not a governmental cudgel to beat you over the head like your blessed media would have you believe....if it doesn't bleed, it doesn't sell papers or TV ad spots....
Fuck this conversation. I cannot bite at the lure any longer, for the people who choose to blame a President or their government for everything that is wrong in the world is just....stupid.
Bush is supremely imperfect in an imperfect world.  Many of these allegations are fabrications and lies, just as surely as many things that come from our govt are fabrications and lies.
Ya gotta sift through the pebbles to get to the gold....
We are still the greatest nation on Earth.  Don't let media types, subversives and ne'er do wells convince you otherwise.
And quit blaming the soldier, some of you.....
[right][post="169643"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]


ahhh, Thank you! people are always going to have these debates, and everyone is going to always think that they are the right one, and the other side is the wrong one. UNfortunatly, the truth which people think is somewhere in the middle, but highly tainted by what the media wants you to think. ANyway, I am not going to comment on the whole discussion, it is pretty pointless, but as far as from a military standpoint, I have served under both Clinton and Bush, and I sure as fuck am glad Clinton is gone. From a military standpoint, he was horrible, and he most likely was the weak link in a chain of events that snowballed into what it became. He destroyed our intelligence. Period.
I also love how whenever anyone (media, protesters, people on this board, etc...)criticises Bush, they invoke the military. If you havent walked in the shoes as a military man, dont speak his words for him. Like anyone who hasnt made that sacrifice can lay claim to understanding what its all about. Its volunteer these days boys. You know neither the great suffering, nor the tremendous pride through which the military man traverses. Dont call up stats or lost lives as a fucking pawn in your argument. We all sign on the dotted line. We all understand the consequences. Some people die, some dont.

I am safer in Iraq, than on I-75 at 830 am. George Bush has done a shitty job with traffic. My car door has dings in it because Bush let some shithead park next to me at Kroger. I cant get an autowash for less than $5 because Bush has allowed the price of car wash gel to skyrocket. He has let Armor All dominate the $1 machines at self car wash ports. Damn him to hell!!!