Cincinnati Streetcar?

[CincyInDC]

Streetcars may be coming back to Cincinnati. City council wants to run a starter/test line from GABP/the Banks (ha) to Findlay Market/OTR. The capital cost would be $102M, and it's yet unclear where that money would come from. Trains would share the road with cars, unlike the light rail MetroMoves referendum that was shot down several years ago. The line would require operation subsidies in the neighborhood of several million per year.

What is your knee-jerk reaction? Vote.

[img]http://www.citystreetcar.net/images/MusicHall.jpg[/img]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='CincyInDC' post='582402' date='Oct 31 2007, 03:23 PM']Streetcars may be coming back to Cincinnati. City council wants to run a starter/test line from GABP/[color="#FF0000"]the Banks (ha)[/color] to Findlay Market/OTR. The capital cost would be $102M, and it's yet unclear where that money would come from. Trains would share the road with cars, unlike the light rail MetroMoves referendum that was shot down several years ago. The line would require operation subsidies in the neighborhood of several million per year.

What is your knee-jerk reaction? Vote.

[img]http://www.citystreetcar.net/images/MusicHall.jpg[/img][/quote]

[Nati Ice]

sounds cool but it costs too much

[Actium]

Houston has one of these and it's AWFUL

I supported it in theory but light rail is lame. A full-blown subway is needed to make mass transit practical, and that costs wayyyy too much in all likelihood

[Vol_Bengal]

It is, but it is not relevant to this discussion, but I just love having hundreds of buses running here as "mass transit" is being subsidized by tax dollars and are running all day and when you look on them you see 2-3 people...

It'd be cheaper to just buy these few people vehicles...

I guess that is why they have that nifty advertisement stuff where it covers the whole side of the bus including the windows so it is harder to see inside them.

But, maybe that is just here in Knoxville.

[MULLY]

I voted against it. Who in their right fucking mind is going to ride that down to Findlay Market? Unless times have changed drastically that is one shitty fucking area.
MULLY

[CincyInDC]

[quote name='Actium' post='582413' date='Oct 31 2007, 04:25 PM']Houston has one of these and it's AWFUL

I supported it in theory but light rail is lame. A full-blown subway is needed to make mass transit practical, and that costs wayyyy too much in all likelihood[/quote]

Didn't Houston just decide to build a shitload more light rail?


[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='582679' date='Nov 1 2007, 08:15 AM']It is, but it is not relevant to this discussion, but I just love having hundreds of buses running here as "mass transit" is being subsidized by tax dollars and are running all day and when you look on them you see 2-3 people...

It'd be cheaper to just buy these few people vehicles...

I guess that is why they have that nifty advertisement stuff where it covers the whole side of the bus including the windows so it is harder to see inside them.

But, maybe that is just here in Knoxville.[/quote]

There are some pretty clear economic and/or racial divides when it comes to who would ride a bus vs. something on rails. Basically for any mass transit system to "thrive" there has to be some sort of economic incentive for lots of people to use it. For us office-types that can equate to hours stuck in traffic vs. quickly getting to work, or $6/day for transit vs. $20/day for parking. I put "thrive" in quotes because there aren't any transit systems (in this country, anyway) that don't receive some sort of subsidy.


[quote name='Fulcher_33' post='582701' date='Nov 1 2007, 08:51 AM']I voted against it. Who in their right fucking mind is going to ride that down to Findlay Market? Unless times have changed drastically that is one shitty fucking area.
MULLY[/quote]

This is exactly why it's running to Findlay Market and not Hyde Park. OTR is poised for economic (re)development, and studies show that rail rapid transit brings investment as the route (unlike with busses) can't be quickly or cheaply altered.

[Actium]

[quote name='CincyInDC' post='582734' date='Nov 1 2007, 09:09 AM']Didn't Houston just decide to build a shitload more light rail?[/quote]

Yes, and it's stupid. They had a vote on it about 4 years ago, right before this current one opened, and before people realized how inefficient it was, and how annoying it is for cars on the road.

Houston is spread out over an area about half the size of Rhode Island. Even getting somewhere semi-close takes forever on those stupid trains.

[CincyInDC]

[quote name='Actium' post='582739' date='Nov 1 2007, 10:15 AM']Yes, and it's stupid. They had a vote on it about 4 years ago, right before this current one opened, and before people realized how inefficient it was, and how annoying it is for cars on the road.

Houston is spread out over an area about half the size of Rhode Island. Even getting somewhere semi-close takes forever on those stupid trains.[/quote]

Someone told me once that Houston essentially has 4 downtown (i.e., skyscraper-y) areas. This someone happened to be a douche; was he a lying douche or just a douche?

[Actium]

[quote name='CincyInDC' post='582742' date='Nov 1 2007, 09:17 AM']Someone told me once that Houston essentially has 4 downtown (i.e., skyscraper-y) areas. This someone happened to be a douche; was he a lying douche or just a douche?[/quote]

That's true--downtown area, Greenway Plaza area, Galleria (Uptown) area, Westchase area, plenty of other districts too but those are the more major ones

[MULLY]

So if they clean up Over the Rhine where the fuck are all the crack dealers gonna go? Man, that place was scary as all hell when I lived there and that was damn near 20 years ago. I can't even imagine what it's like now.
MULLY
They should take that money and use it for something good, like building me a winter home in Cincinnati that comes with season tickets

[CincyInDC]

[quote name='Fulcher_33' post='582766' date='Nov 1 2007, 10:52 AM']So if they clean up Over the Rhine [b]where the fuck are all the crack dealers gonna go[/b]? Man, that place was scary as all hell when I lived there and that was damn near 20 years ago. I can't even imagine what it's like now.
MULLY
They should take that money and use it for something good, like building me a winter home in Cincinnati that comes with season tickets[/quote]


Eventually, the drug dealers will be pushed out of the city (that's the desire, anyway). Label this cartoon with Cincinnati neighborhoods/suburbs as you see fit.

[img]http://www.eventsclubsartsculture.com/gentrification.jpg[/img]

[Go Tory Go!]

I'm not into the streetcar idea. It won't really do much to ease traffic, which is something a transit project should obviously do. I'd much rather have this money go to a part of a full-blown light rail plan, off the vehicular right of way. And it would also be nice if they could extend it a little bit to go up to Clifton, there are tons of people without cars up there who also happen to enjoy going to bars such as those found in their vision for OTR. You could get a lot of commuters to downtown from up there as well.

I wonder if there is a plan that would allow them to use the existing subway tunnels under downtown / central parkway. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/39.gif[/img]

It is also somewhat annoying that it involves literally replacing the infrastructure that was ripped out earlier in the 20th century in favor of buses, but I suppose there's nothing you can do about that, especially considering that GM was behind this and numerous other sabotages of public transit systems at the time.

[MULLY]

No, what they should do is put that towards helping the homeless. There's no reason to for a streetcar.
MULLY

[CincyInDC]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='582779' date='Nov 1 2007, 11:25 AM']I'm not into the streetcar idea. It won't really do much to ease traffic, which is something a transit project should obviously do. I'd much rather have this money go to a part of a full-blown light rail plan, off the vehicular right of way. And it would also be nice if they could extend it a little bit to go up to Clifton, there are tons of people without cars up there who also happen to enjoy going to bars such as those found in their vision for OTR. You could get a lot of commuters to downtown from up there as well.

I wonder if there is a plan that would allow them to use the existing subway tunnels under downtown / central parkway. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/39.gif[/img]

It is also somewhat annoying that it involves literally replacing the infrastructure that was ripped out earlier in the 20th century in favor of buses, but I suppose there's nothing you can do about that, especially considering that GM was behind this and numerous other sabotages of public transit systems at the time.[/quote]

The idea is that the phase II of this streetcar line would go to UC. Baby Steps, I suppose. $100M is 1/26th the cost of the killed light rail proposal from 2002.

There is no plan to use the existing subway tunnels as many of them are not exactly abandoned. This one has a sizable water main and there are other tunnels with data lines, too.

[img]http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/subway-b4.jpg[/img]

Lamenting the dismantling of public transit during the post-war era isn't unreasonable, but yeah, it's not very constructive.

[CincyInDC]

[quote name='Fulcher_33' post='582788' date='Nov 1 2007, 11:36 AM']No, what they should do is put that towards helping the homeless. There's no reason to for a streetcar.
MULLY[/quote]

One of the goals of this whole project is to lure people back to the city. Dwindling population (and therefore a dwindling tax base) is pretty bad when it comes to funding assistance for the homeless.

[CatScratchFever]

[quote name='CincyInDC' post='582801' date='Nov 1 2007, 11:57 AM']One of the goals of this whole project is to lure people back to the city. Dwindling population (and therefore a dwindling tax base) is pretty bad when it comes to funding assistance for the homeless.[/quote]
If they want to lure people back into the city, they need to plan a massive train system that runs from the suburbs int o downtown, like DC has.
What they are proposing is a small light rail system, similar to Baltimore. In a nutshell it doesn't work, and here's why:
1. It's too small to be useful. It doesn't go anywhere people want to go. It's great if you live in the one suburb that it goes to and want to go to a ballgame downtown. Otherwise, it's useless. It's slightly more useful since they extended it to the airport, but carrying luggage on the train can be a pain in the ass, too.
2. The population size won't support a large rail system. Only a big rail system will be useful, and Cincinnati is too small a town to support a large system. It costs too much and won't bring in the revenue necessary to finance it.

This "trolley" they are proposing, if built, will never be anything more that a curiosity and a minor transportation option between a few select places in the downtown area. It will not bring people downtown, just shuttle them around, which, if I'm not mistaken, is exactly what the bus does now.

[Actium]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='582779' date='Nov 1 2007, 10:25 AM']I'm not into the streetcar idea. It won't really do much to ease traffic, which is something a transit project should obviously do. I'd much rather have this money go to a part of a full-blown light rail plan, off the vehicular right of way. And it would also be nice if they could extend it a little bit to go up to Clifton, there are tons of people without cars up there who also happen to enjoy going to bars such as those found in their vision for OTR. You could get a lot of commuters to downtown from up there as well.

I wonder if there is a plan that would allow them to use the existing subway tunnels under downtown / central parkway. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/39.gif[/img]

It is also somewhat annoying that it involves literally replacing the infrastructure that was ripped out earlier in the 20th century in favor of buses, but I suppose there's nothing you can do about that, especially considering that GM was behind this and numerous other sabotages of public transit systems at the time.[/quote]

An elevated line a la Chicago would be the best solution I think. Not as expensive as a subway but more effective than a half-assed light rail.

[CatScratchFever]

[quote name='Actium' post='582832' date='Nov 1 2007, 12:36 PM']An elevated line a la Chicago would be the best solution I think. Not as expensive as a subway but more effective than a half-assed light rail.[/quote]
you reminded me of my other point... no one wants to live near a train track. Above ground trains will drive people away. The light rail in Baltimore destroyed almost every neighborhood it runs through and turned them into slums.
You avoid that by moving the train underground, but that's already been tried in Cincy and failed.

[CincyInDC]

[quote name='CatScratchFever' post='582836' date='Nov 1 2007, 12:40 PM']you reminded me of my other point... no one wants to live near a train track. Above ground trains will drive people away. The light rail in Baltimore destroyed almost every neighborhood it runs through and turned them into slums.
You avoid that by moving the train underground, but that's already been tried in Cincy and failed.[/quote]

This reminds me of the scene from the Blues Brothers in Elwood's "apartment" near the El. yeah, living next to that would suck. I lived close to the CSX tracks in Oxford back in the day. Freight trains and their horns rolling through at 4 in the morning blew chunks. I don't think the streetcars Cincinnati is looking at using are even as loud as diesel buses, though. That's what they say, anyway.

[MrOrange1219]

The streetcar is a great idea as a beginning step!

There needs to be a light rail system in Cincinnati, and I whole-heartedly disagree with anyone who says otherwise. We studied the effects of a light rail system in Cincinnati throughout my time at UC as a planning student and if you actually look into case studies and the potential of the project, you'd agree with me.

Rarely has a city of Cincinnati's size developed a lightrail system that hasn't been profitable to the city and local businesses. Most exceed expectations by great percentages - Portland, Houston, Denver, St Louis for example.

Cincinnati will continnue to sprawl and gentrify unless something is done, and a lightrail system is a great step in the right direction. People are just scared of the cost, but it's worth it.

www.protransit.com - check it out.

[Actium]

[quote name='MrOrange1219' post='587839' date='Nov 6 2007, 03:56 PM']The streetcar is a great idea as a beginning step!

There needs to be a light rail system in Cincinnati, and I whole-heartedly disagree with anyone who says otherwise. We studied the effects of a light rail system in Cincinnati throughout my time at UC as a planning student and if you actually look into case studies and the potential of the project, you'd agree with me.

Rarely has a city of Cincinnati's size developed a lightrail system that hasn't been profitable to the city and local businesses. Most exceed expectations by great percentages - Portland, Houston, Denver, St Louis for example.

Cincinnati will continnue to sprawl and gentrify unless something is done, and a lightrail system is a great step in the right direction. People are just scared of the cost, but it's worth it.

www.protransit.com - check it out.[/quote]

I live in Houston and EVERYONE hates the light rail. Really. I supported it at first, but all it does is get in the way of making left turns, hits pedestrians, and takes up limited rod space. It's horrendous

[Nati Ice]

[quote name='Fulcher_33' post='582788' date='Nov 1 2007, 10:36 AM']No, what they should do is put that towards helping the homeless. There's no reason to for a streetcar.
MULLY[/quote]
yea, because if there has been one successful urban endeavor in modern america it has been riding cites of the homeless.


look, 99% of homeless people are either lazy, addicts, or mentally ill. none of which will seek out permanent help if its provided. all they want is a warm meal, a cot, and a 40 of nati ice. an opportunity to work, or what non miscreants may view as the way out of the gutter, is not in their plans. all current solutions to the homeless plight are a waste of funds, although i could see how a one way light rail system to dayton, cleveland, or pissburgh could alleviate the problem.

[CincyInDC]

Yo. I hadn't thought about this in a week or so, but here's the reason I brought all this up.

I think about the things that make the District of Columbia a livable city. The job market is pretty freakin' sweet--thank you military and Heimatlandsverteidigunsministerium (homeland security). Also, crime isn't as bad as people think. The biggie, however, (I don't work for either of the former) is that we have a GOOD public transportation system. Metro (http://WMATA.com) has TONS of faults/problems, but in the end, I live less than a mile from two subway stops, and therefore I don't [i]have[/i] to own a car. Does anybody realize how much that saves per year? Granted, I have to buy Metro fares (I get them pre-tax, haha) and I buy Flexcar membership (more on that later). I also don't have a wife (anymore--whew) or kids. I'm not ready for that kind of thing anyway, so no biggie.

My neighborhood is one of many who are (or were) slated to get streetcars like those planned for downtown Cincinnati. The streetcars are meant to be circulators to get people from neighborhoods to transit hubs (to us, those are Metro stations). There is no way in hell I'd want to take a streetcar all the way to the office (many miles from my apartment). That would be ludicrous. However, if I could take the streetcar instead of walking the .7 miles to the Metro I'd do it in a heartbeat.

This is the role that the Cincinnati streetcar is attempting to fill...circulate people to/between the short distance "interest centers"...GABP, the Banks (recently approved!), Findlay Market, OTR, PBS?, UC? or Southbank (someday maybe). Don't forget the rather quiet Transit Center. Maybe someday it will actually be a real transit center where long-distance trains from Chicago or not-so-long-distance trains from Milford or even CVG and Florence will allow people to access Downtown in a meaningful way.

When I visit the 'Nati (god, I hate that moniker), which happens at least 3 times a year, I actually use public transportation. But generally only from Newport (Southbank) or Covington to GABP or PBS. I think to myself would I like to move back? Sadly, given the state of the area, the answer is no, but fortunately the city council realizes that the city is hemorrhaging citizens (and therefore tax dollars) and it is trying to make Cincinnati a more desirable place to live. The streetcar is a step in the right direction; [b]it brings economic development[/b] and it will [b]bring a population (tax) base back to the city.[/b] The starter line alone won't be enough to save the city, but it is a starting point to making the city worth coming to, or worth staying in, especially assuming the starter line is just that...a start.

There is SO much more to it than this issue...for example...Actium, given the proposed route of the starter (google it...it's out there), I would think it won't be as annoying as it is in Houston...plus it's not light rail in traffic...it's smaller, lighter, streetcars in traffic (or is automobile traffic in a streetcar right-of-way???). I ask this: why do streetcars work in Munich better than Houston? I'll bet there's better planning involved in Munich (i.e., apply that planning in Cincinnati for Christ's sake!) plus it's a different kind of rail car in Houston (right?).

that's enough for several evenings... cheers to all

[Jamie_B]

I used to do .5 from the Tenleytown AU station to NBC 4. It wasnt bad except during the winter.