Three rounder by me

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='akiliMVP' post='630954' date='Feb 8 2008, 09:11 AM']Harvey is like a perfect fit at outside linebacker in the 3-4... If by some crazy ass improbable chance we switch to the 3-4 I think he's definitely the pick in round 1. I don't trust Pollack to return as a full time starter right away, and other than nose tackle, a pass rushing linebacker is the most important cog in a the 3-4. I guess I could see Kentwan Balmer, because he's a good fit at end in the 3-4, but I still think that's a bit of a reach for him.[/quote]


see, even without pollack, I would think Geathers, Henderson, Jeanty, Brooks, (and Odell?) would provide more than enough pass rush from the LB spot. That's why I think we concentrate on the d-line early regardless of a 3-4 or 4-3.


IMO we aren't switching the base D anyway.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='630959' date='Feb 8 2008, 09:25 AM']see, even without pollack, I would think Geathers, Henderson, Jeanty, Brooks, (and Odell?) would provide more than enough pass rush from the LB spot. That's why I think we concentrate on the d-line early regardless of a 3-4 or 4-3.


IMO we aren't switching the base D anyway.[/quote]
I would be pissed if they didn't add more to the linebacking corps in a 3-4 switch. The only proven pass rusher in that bunch is Geathers, and I don't even know if you can call him proven after this last season. Henderson and Jeanty certainly fit the position of outside linebacker, but neither are starting material IMO. Brooks will play inside and could provide some pass rush, but his job will mostly be stopping the run. Odell is another inside linebacker that I think will be told to just stop the run.

I'd say we would have to sign/draft another starting caliber pass rushing outside linebacker in order to have an average 3-4. Not to mention 2-3 new starters on the defensive line.

[Jason]

[quote name='akiliMVP' post='630941' date='Feb 8 2008, 08:54 AM']If you want a guy that is grossly underachieving, not hardworking, disappears in most games, is easily blockable and is going to be a huge bust than yeah.[/quote]

You yourself said the draft is based "on potential, not what they did in college". None of the DE prospects have as much potential as Campbell.

[Jason]

[quote name='akiliMVP' post='630944' date='Feb 8 2008, 08:58 AM']Because it doesn't make sense.

[b]Because we can't even keep 3 linebackers healthy, let alone 4[/b].

Because the 4 linebackers that everyone projects to start, only have 37 total starts combined in the last 2 seasons, 32 of which are by Geathers.

Because the defensive line is already horrible and giving them more responsibility doesn't make them better.

Because we are already trying to resign Landon and Dhani, both weakside linebackers in the 4-3 that have no place in a 3-4.



I could probably keep going.[/quote]

That was last year. If you think every season is going to be a repeat of the one before, we might as well give up now.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='Jason' post='630983' date='Feb 8 2008, 10:28 AM']That was last year. If you think every season is going to be a repeat of the one before, we might as well give up now.[/quote]
Ok we only have Jeanty, Brooks, Henderson, Schlegel, Manning, Maxwell, Thurman and Pollack signed on the team for next season. The last two haven't played football in 2 years, and Manning and Maxwell were only brought in because we had so little depth, a safety was starting at linebacker. Brooks has proven he can't stay healthy, and Henderson hasn't proven anything other than training camp hype. Schlegel is a backup at best. Jeanty is decent when he can stay healthy, but again he hasn't been healthy in the 2 seasons he's been here.

No I don't think that injuries will kill us like last season, but if we go to the 3-4 (we won't) we need to a couple more healthy proven linebackers so we don't end up having Chad Johnson starting at middle linebacker.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='Jason' post='630981' date='Feb 8 2008, 10:27 AM']You yourself said the draft is based "on potential, not what they did in college". None of the DE prospects have as much potential as Campbell.[/quote]
No I said the draft is based on MOSTLY potential, and not what they did in college. In other words potential is weighed more when drafting than college production. I never said they didn't factor in college production.

None of the DE prospects are as big of underachievers as Campbell either. Have you ever even seen him player or are you just looking at his height/weight and "projected" workout numbers? He's no where near dominant in actual games. Looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='akiliMVP' post='630988' date='Feb 8 2008, 10:41 AM']Brooks has proven he can't stay healthy, and Henderson hasn't proven anything other than training camp hype.[/quote]


seriously, because he got injured once?

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='630996' date='Feb 8 2008, 10:48 AM'] seriously, because he got injured once?[/quote]
He was injury prone in college too. He missed games due to knee surgery in 2005, and also ankle and back injuries. I think he may have also missed a few games in 2006 due to a neck injury.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='akiliMVP' post='631001' date='Feb 8 2008, 10:57 AM']He was injury prone in college too. He missed games due to knee surgery in 2005, and also ankle and back injuries. I think he may have also missed a few games in 2006 due to a neck injury.[/quote]


what's your point? That was pre-NFL. Chris Perry wasn't injury prone in college, and look at him.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='631003' date='Feb 8 2008, 10:58 AM']what's your point? That was pre-NFL. Chris Perry wasn't injury prone in college, and look at him.[/quote]
Obviously he has injury problems.

I'm not saying I don't think he'll be good, but people talk about him like he's the next coming of Lawrence Taylor. He hasn't proven a damn thing yet, other than injury problems. If he can play an entire season I think he'll be good, but he hasn't done that yet.

[bengaled]

[quote name='akiliMVP' post='630941' date='Feb 8 2008, 08:54 AM']If you want a guy that is grossly underachieving, not hardworking, disappears in most games, is easily blockable and is going to be a huge bust than yeah.[/quote]

you've just described the knock that's claimed by a lot of experts on derrick harvey...tho i'd never be so outspoken as you and claim a guy is going to be a bust when he's never played a down in the NFL.

[happyrid]

I think you did a great job of nailing the general values of most of the guys in your draft as far as where they are projected, especially at the top.

I'm not really a fan of the Bengals' picks but that is because I disagree with you about the likelihood of a switch to the 3-4 and because I think that even if we do stick to a 4-3, we still need to add some size in the front 7. I will say that I would be perfectly happy taking front 7 guys with our first 3 picks but unfortunately we will probably not invest enough picks in the D line yet again.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='bengaled' post='631111' date='Feb 9 2008, 01:12 AM']you've just described the knock that's claimed by a lot of experts on derrick harvey...tho i'd never be so outspoken as you and claim a guy is going to be a bust when he's never played a down in the NFL.[/quote]
I have never seen anyone describe Harvey as underachieving or not hardworking. Show me one source where you have read this.

Campbell on the other hand, is. And if you ever watch him play he's not even close to as dominant as you would think with his size and athletic ability. Can you fault me for not wanting an underachiever with a top 10 pick?

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='happyrid' post='631113' date='Feb 9 2008, 01:33 AM']I think you did a great job of nailing the general values of most of the guys in your draft as far as where they are projected, especially at the top.

I'm not really a fan of the Bengals' picks but that is because I disagree with you about the likelihood of a switch to the 3-4 and because I think that even if we do stick to a 4-3, we still need to add some size in the front 7. I will say that I would be perfectly happy taking front 7 guys with our first 3 picks but unfortunately we will probably not invest enough picks in the D line yet again.[/quote]
See I think we need to add speed to the front seven, more specifically the d-line. Quick athletic guys who can get after the quarterback and make plays behind the line of scrimmage. I think that's mostly what Zimmer is about, an aggressive pass rushing scheme.

[bengaled]

[quote name='akiliMVP' post='631139' date='Feb 9 2008, 11:19 AM']I have never seen anyone describe Harvey as underachieving or not hardworking. Show me one source where you have read this.

Campbell on the other hand, is. And if you ever watch him play he's not even close to as dominant as you would think with his size and athletic ability. Can you fault me for not wanting an underachiever with a top 10 pick?[/quote]

to be clear, i'd say it's a HUGE, HUGE projection to put either there. they haven't done anything to show they belong there yet. that's where we differ.

[happyrid]

[quote name='akiliMVP' post='631140' date='Feb 9 2008, 11:24 AM']See I think we need to add speed to the front seven, more specifically the d-line. Quick athletic guys who can get after the quarterback and make plays behind the line of scrimmage. I think that's mostly what Zimmer is about, an aggressive pass rushing scheme.[/quote]

Yeah, I'm not going to convince you otherwise and you likely aren't going to convince me. I think the primary need is an improved pass rush but I also think that we are going to have a hard time winning in the division we are in with our DTs weighing 290 and our DEs weighing 265 which is what we'd probably be looking at if things went according to your mock. It is just hard to match up with the physical offensive lines and strong RBs of Pitt, Balt and Clev with such an undersized D.

I'd love to see us pick up a big time 3-4 DE or OLB in the first round and then grab a true nose tackle in the 2nd or 3rd. Seems like there are a lot of those NT type guys available this year and none are projected to go too high.

[bengaled]

[quote name='happyrid' post='631147' date='Feb 9 2008, 12:55 PM']Yeah, I'm not going to convince you otherwise and you likely aren't going to convince me. I think the primary need is an improved pass rush but I also think that we are going to have a hard time winning in the division we are in with our DTs weighing 290 and our DEs weighing 265 which is what we'd probably be looking at if things went according to your mock. It is just hard to match up with the physical offensive lines and strong RBs of Pitt, Balt and Clev with such an undersized D.

I'd love to see us pick up a big time 3-4 DE or OLB in the first round and then grab a true nose tackle in the 2nd or 3rd. Seems like there are a lot of those NT type guys available this year and none are projected to go too high.[/quote]

i understand your thinking but the problem is this... there are but a very few nose guys that actually equate to types that have starter potential in a 3-4. if you go into the draft banking on the fact that you can get one of them in the later rounds (we'll say 2-3), you damned well better have your projections right...which is a difficult thing to do.

let's say you take a calais campbell in the 1st, with the mindset that you'll grab your nose tackle in a round thereafter. how fucked up does your draft become when you see red bryant and frank okam go off the board prior to your 46th pick, disrupting those plans? now which way do you turn? your 1st round pick suddenly doesn't look so good now that you have to stay in a 4-3, and you're left scratching your head as to whether you conducted your draft correctly. since you've banked on that move, you're suddenly pigeonholed into reaching for a guy to cover your nose spot. sorry, but that's a huge gamble.

[akiliMVP]

Campbell isn't a good fit in the 3-4 anyways.

The only two guys I would consider taking with the #9 pick (realistically) in the off chance we run a 3-4 are Derrick Harvey (OLB) and Kentwan Balmer (DE). I could maybe even see Phillip Merling (DE).

[bengaled]

[quote name='akiliMVP' post='631228' date='Feb 10 2008, 12:59 AM']Campbell isn't a good fit in the 3-4 anyways.

The only two guys I would consider taking with the #9 pick (realistically) in the off chance we run a 3-4 are Derrick Harvey (OLB) and Kentwan Balmer (DE). I could maybe even see Phillip Merling (DE).[/quote]
i was only using campbell as an example in happyrid's drafting theory. i'm really not that fond of him. the same case could be made inserting balmer in that hypothetical. i'd still be very concerned about the success rate in acquiring that "mandatory" nose man in the later rounds. it would be a huge gamble that a quality nose would be available. then you're stuck with trying to make balmer fit in a 4-3, which is a possibility. but i really doubt that it would be the wisest use of such a high pick.

[texbengal]

I like this draft, actually. I think Harvey has a lot of ability, not only as a pass rusher, but as an athletic run defender, too. Remember, he played at a high level in the best conference in the country, and he was playing a ton of snaps at FL, sometimes even playing inside, and he held up. DEs these days are smaller and quicker (generally), and he fits that profile.

Wheeler wasn't a guy I knew that much about, but he was productive at GA Tech, and he was a beast in the Sr. Bowl... very physical and sudden. And I've always liked Laws, and at the top of the 3rd round for a guy who has less than optimum size, I could see that.

The front 7 needs a lot of work, and this definitely addresses that need. Eddie Royal brings playmaking ability to STs and to the WR position as well.

All of that said, I think it'll be interesting to see if the Bengals take a very close look at DeSean Jackson. He's the best WR in this class, he's got home run speed, and he can return kicks, too. With Chad's volatility, and his and TJ's advancing age, the fact that Henry is one step away from being banished, and beyond that, there is no one proven, they might go that way. Not suggesting that will happen, but I could see it. They would likely trade down, because I don't believe he's the 9th best player, but maybe top 15.