Jamie_B Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 [quote name='akiliMVP' post='783925' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:41 AM']So you think spending trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars was the right thing to do, even though it has had no positive effect on the economy and unemployment rate?[/quote] I think I agree with Krugman, that we havent spent enough.... [url="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/25/what-i-was-afraid-of/"]http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/2...-was-afraid-of/[/url] [quote]What I was afraid of Back in March, when I was lamenting the inadequate size of the Obama stimulus, I made this prediction: Republicans are now firmly committed to the view that we should do nothing to respond to the economic crisis, except cut taxes — which they always want to do regardless of circumstances. If Mr. Obama comes back for a second round of stimulus, they’ll respond not by being helpful, but by claiming that his policies have failed. And I laid out the following scenario: So here’s the picture that scares me: It’s September 2009, the unemployment rate has passed 9 percent, and despite the early round of stimulus spending it’s still headed up. Mr. Obama finally concedes that a bigger stimulus is needed. But he can’t get his new plan through Congress because approval for his economic policies has plummeted, partly because his policies are seen to have failed, partly because job-creation policies are conflated in the public mind with deeply unpopular bank bailouts. It’s only June, but Republicans are already claiming that the Obama economic plan has failed. (Yes, that’s insane — hardly any of the money has flowed to the economy yet — but this was predictable.) Meanwhile, unemployment is already above 9 percent. And the green shoots are looking browner by the week, especially on the jobs front: new claims for unemployment insurance are stubbornly running at more than 600,000 a week, far above the 350,000 or so that would be consistent with a stable unemployment rate. We really do need a bigger stimulus. But it’s going to be hard slogging.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiliMVP Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='783953' date='Jul 6 2009, 01:29 PM']I think I agree with Krugman, that we havent spent enough.... [url="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/25/what-i-was-afraid-of/"]http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/2...-was-afraid-of/[/url][/quote] I have no idea what the answer is, but spending money we don't have doesn't seem like the best solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 [quote name='akiliMVP' post='783964' date='Jul 6 2009, 02:34 PM']I have no idea what the answer is, but spending money we don't have doesn't seem like the best solution.[/quote] It depends on what we are spending it on. If we are investing it on things that will be good for the long term in terms of job creation and keeping us moving foward as a society, then yes it is a good solution. I think thats where the issue is, where are we spending it, as of now as a few have said not much of it has been spent. It's like the kid going into collge imo, does he have the money himself to be paying 10K a year for 4-5 years, and what of graduate school? No. But you also assume that if he is doing what he is supposed to, he is investing in himself so that one day he will be able to repay it and make something of himself. We cant sit back and do nothing and hope things will get better, espessally with regard to securing our future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jza10304 Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 [quote name='akiliMVP' post='783925' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:41 AM']So you think spending trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars was the right thing to do, even though it has had no positive effect on the economy and unemployment rate?[/quote] How quickly do you think things get turned around in? [quote name='Jamie_B' post='783953' date='Jul 6 2009, 01:29 PM']I think I agree with Krugman, that we havent spent enough.... [url="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/25/what-i-was-afraid-of/"]http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/2...-was-afraid-of/[/url][/quote] :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: I'm a bit of a Krugman fanboy, but other economists such as Brad Delong have been saying the same things. As I posted in an earlier thread...my problem has been that not enough has been done soon enough and in the interests of appeasing a faction that will not compromise Obama shoud've asked for more than was thought to be needed in order to take into account the chunk that would be sliced off. What was left with was a stimulus plan that if deemed to be inadequate would make it that much more difficult to pass a second plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 [quote name='jza10304' post='783971' date='Jul 6 2009, 03:23 PM']How quickly do you think things get turned around in? :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: I'm a bit of a Krugman fanboy, but other economists such as Brad Delong have been saying the same things. As I posted in an earlier thread...my problem has been that not enough has been done soon enough and in the interests of appeasing a faction that will not compromise Obama shoud've asked for more than was thought to be needed in order to take into account the chunk that would be sliced off. What was left with was a stimulus plan that if deemed to be inadequate would make it that much more difficult to pass a second plan.[/quote] Well he does have a fillabuster proof majority now, if he can get some of the moderate dems..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiliMVP Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 [quote name='jza10304' post='783971' date='Jul 6 2009, 03:23 PM']How quickly do you think things get turned around in?[/quote] I'm not the only one that feels this way. There are millions of Americans and a lot of experts that said this would have no effect and so far they are right. He's spent I have no idea how many trillions of dollars over the last 6 months and the only effect so far has been overwhelmingly negative. How many years and trillions do you give "the man who can do no wrong" to fix it? What happens first: a fixed economy or total financial oblivion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 [quote name='akiliMVP' post='784000' date='Jul 6 2009, 05:16 PM']I'm not the only one that feels this way. There are millions of Americans and a lot of experts that said this would have no effect and so far they are right. He's spent I have no idea how many trillions of dollars over the last 6 months and the only effect so far has been overwhelmingly negative. How many years and trillions do you give "the man who can do no wrong" to fix it? What happens first: a fixed economy or total financial oblivion?[/quote] I dont think anyone here has said he is the man that can do no wrong, in fact I think a few are pointing out what wrong he is doing. Its just you take a oppisite viewpoint with regard to what should be done as far as spending. Curious, what would you have done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 Increase the debt more?!!??! Are you fucking serious or am i in some sort of fucked up time warp... "I am having a few problems with my finances this month, so my solution was to rack up all my credit cards... But don't worry, I used it on plasma tv's so that should create a few jobs to offset any problems... " Literally fucking insanity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 I love how we had to get the stimulus bill passes ASAP or the economy would crumble... Then it passes and 6 months later we have spent something less than 10% of the money so far... What is different with the way that was handled, versus the run-up to the invasion of Iraq? And why aren't people that bashed that decision calling this what it is: Fear mongering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 As far as Palin goes, weird ass shit... I remember Homer saying a while back that the nomination of her was going to be the downfall of her political career. At the time I thought that was a little overboard, but it came to frution. Almost guarenteed that there is some sort of blackmail going on here. And don't think i'm sticking up for Palin... To be blackmailed, you usually do something very wrong. Her political career is over. I wouldn't vote for her now if it were a Obama/Lucifer ticket... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='bengalrick' post='784034' date='Jul 6 2009, 09:34 PM']Increase the debt more?!!??! Are you fucking serious or am i in some sort of fucked up time warp... "I am having a few problems with my finances this month, so my solution was to rack up all my credit cards... But don't worry, I used it on plasma tv's so that should create a few jobs to offset any problems... " Literally fucking insanity...[/quote] yes im dead serious rick, again its about what the money is being spent on how are you paying for school? is it cash out of pocket or are you taking out loans? or is work paying for it? (which would be someone else's debit) now is school a good debit for you? will it give you a better life in the future? I would venture to say yes. Same principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='bengalrick' post='784036' date='Jul 6 2009, 09:39 PM']I love how we had to get the stimulus bill passes ASAP or the economy would crumble... Then it passes and 6 months later we have spent something less than 10% of the money so far... What is different with the way that was handled, versus the run-up to the invasion of Iraq? And why aren't people that bashed that decision calling this what it is: Fear mongering?[/quote] Well one directly kills our boys over a lie, the other not so much. (also wasnt it the banking bailout bill that needed to be passed asap? not the stimulus? i could be off here, thats what i seem to remember) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='783953' date='Jul 6 2009, 12:29 PM']I think I agree with Krugman, that we havent spent enough.... [url="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/25/what-i-was-afraid-of/"]http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/2...-was-afraid-of/[/url][/quote] The problem as I see it is that we [i]cannot spend enough[/i]. We don't have it, and even if we do, we'll continue to bankrupt ourselves into the next millenium in the process. Biting off your nose to spite your face. Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='Jul 6 2009, 01:52 PM' post='783967'] It depends on what we are spending it on. If we are investing it on things that will be good for the long term in terms of job creation and keeping us moving foward as a society, then yes it is a good solution. I think thats where the issue is, where are we spending it, as of now as a few have said not much of it has been spent. [/qoute] Another issue is how we the people DO NOT KNOW exactly how all that money is being sent. The transperancy Obama promised is opaque as far as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='784041' date='Jul 6 2009, 09:21 PM']Well one directly kills our boys over a lie, the other not so much. (also wasnt it the banking bailout bill that needed to be passed asap? not the stimulus? i could be off here, thats what i seem to remember)[/quote] The war in Ahghanistan is continuing apace, and while I tend to agree that we have needed to spend more resources there instead of Iraq like forever, I also think that the war there isn't really "winnable" in our context of speaking. The USSR learned that the hard way, and expended vaster resources learning it. All we can hope for over there is to stabilize certain regions while attempting to subjugate others. And we cannot rely on Pakistan to do any of the dirty work, as their troops on their side of the border are rife with Taliban sympathizers and yes men. It's a no winner to me. But it doesn't mean we cannot give it the olde college try! **flaring trumpets** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='Bunghole' post='784043' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:38 PM']The problem as I see it is that we [i]cannot spend enough[/i]. We don't have it, and even if we do, we'll continue to bankrupt ourselves into the next millenium in the process. Biting off your nose to spite your face. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.[/quote] and yet if we do nothing, banks fail, car companies fail, you get even higher than the 9.1% unemployment we have today Doing nothing was not an option this comes from the Bernstein-Romer paper (via Krugman) on the job impact of the recovery plan. [url="http://otrans.3cdn.net/45593e8ecbd339d074_l3m6bt1te.pdf"]http://otrans.3cdn.net/45593e8ecbd339d074_l3m6bt1te.pdf[/url] [img]http://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/romer_stim.png[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='Bunghole' post='784044' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:39 PM'][quote name='Jamie_B' post='783967' date='Jul 6 2009, 01:52 PM'] It depends on what we are spending it on. If we are investing it on things that will be good for the long term in terms of job creation and keeping us moving foward as a society, then yes it is a good solution. I think thats where the issue is, where are we spending it, as of now as a few have said not much of it has been spent.[/quote] Another issue is how we the people DO NOT KNOW exactly how all that money is being sent. The transperancy Obama promised is opaque as far as I can tell. [/quote] wasnt there a website that was created for this purpose? [url="http://www.recovery.gov/"]http://www.recovery.gov/[/url] Now what the Fed is doing is still a mystery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='Bunghole' post='784045' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:45 PM']The war in Ahghanistan is continuing apace, and while I tend to agree that we have needed to spend more resources there instead of Iraq like forever, I also think that the war there isn't really "winnable" in our context of speaking. The USSR learned that the hard way, and expended vaster resources learning it. All we can hope for over there is to stabilize certain regions while attempting to subjugate others. And we cannot rely on Pakistan to do any of the dirty work, as their troops on their side of the border are rife with Taliban sympathizers and yes men. It's a no winner to me. [b] But it doesn't mean we cannot give it the olde college try![/b] **flaring trumpets**[/quote] I was with you until you said this. Why? For our desire to have revenge? My parents always taught me if your going to get into a fight you better damned well win it, or dont fight at all. (also Im pretty sure Rick was refering to Iraq, not Afghanistan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jza10304 Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='bengalrick' post='784034' date='Jul 6 2009, 09:34 PM']Increase the debt more?!!??! Are you fucking serious or am i in some sort of fucked up time warp... "I am having a few problems with my finances this month, so my solution was to rack up all my credit cards... But don't worry, I used it on plasma tv's so that should create a few jobs to offset any problems... " Literally fucking insanity...[/quote] :bangingheadagainstwall: Haven't we been over this? Keep fighting the good fight Jaime... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jza10304 Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='784047' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:53 PM']and yet if we do nothing, banks fail, car companies fail, you get even higher than the 9.1% unemployment we have today Doing nothing was not an option this comes from the Bernstein-Romer paper (via Krugman) on the job impact of the recovery plan. [url="http://otrans.3cdn.net/45593e8ecbd339d074_l3m6bt1te.pdf"]http://otrans.3cdn.net/45593e8ecbd339d074_l3m6bt1te.pdf[/url] [img]http://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/romer_stim.png[/img][/quote] We should cut taxes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='784047' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:53 PM']and yet if we do nothing, banks fail, car companies fail, you get even higher than the 9.1% unemployment we have today Doing nothing was not an option this comes from the Bernstein-Romer paper (via Krugman) on the job impact of the recovery plan. [url="http://otrans.3cdn.net/45593e8ecbd339d074_l3m6bt1te.pdf"]http://otrans.3cdn.net/45593e8ecbd339d074_l3m6bt1te.pdf[/url] [img]http://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/romer_stim.png[/img][/quote] Am I missing large part of your point that the graph displayed is reflecting the unemployment is still following the path of the "No Recovery Plan" even with the "Recovery Plan"? The "Official" (snicker) is almost at 10% as it is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jza10304 Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='Elflocko' post='784059' date='Jul 7 2009, 12:53 AM']Am I missing large part of your point that the graph displayed is reflecting the unemployment is still following the path of the "No Recovery Plan" even with the "Recovery Plan"? The "Official" (snicker) is almost at 10% as it is...[/quote] All this shows is the estimates of this crisis were OVERLY optimistic. Are you saying that should the banks have continued to fail as well as the car industry that unemployment would be lower? Also look at when in the graph the stimulus plan is supposed to kick in. The large gaps in projected and actual unemployment are later. The policy was never portrayed as a quick fix...hence why it cannot be considered a "failure" just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='Elflocko' post='784059' date='Jul 7 2009, 12:53 AM']Am I missing large part of your point that the graph displayed is reflecting the unemployment is still following the path of the "No Recovery Plan" even with the "Recovery Plan"? The "Official" (snicker) is almost at 10% as it is...[/quote] That actually is my point, you can see where they missed the estimates and why they need a bigger stimulus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyUtah Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='784040' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:17 PM']yes im dead serious rick, again its about what the money is being spent on[/quote] When has a government ever been able to show that is can consistently allocate resources effectively? It seems that history has shown us time and time again that economic central planning does not work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='JohnnyUtah' post='784118' date='Jul 7 2009, 03:10 PM']When has a government ever been able to show that is can consistently allocate resources effectively? It seems that history has shown us time and time again that economic central planning does not work.[/quote] Like it didnt work for FDR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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