Bengals1181 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='The PatternMaster' timestamp='1331047245' post='1102606'] How can you say Boling will be fine, what about his technique flaws and it's no given that he will just magically wake up stronger. Boling was horrible, he played a few snaps, got owned, then replaced by a guy they signed off the street, Mike McGlynn. Boling showed me nothing that says he will be fine, he needs to prove he can play at this level because he didn't do that last year. They gave him an opportunity to play and he proved he wasn't ready. [/quote] you can find it stated multiple places that the lockout effected rookie olinemen as much as any other position group. Not only from a mental standpoint, but particularly from a strength and conditioning standpoint. It would be absolutely stupid to write off Boling, who was a highly regarded guard prospect, at this point in his career based off of 4 games in his rookie season. Sure, he's not going to just wake up stronger. That's a dumb comment. However, he's now had 6 months since those games to work with the trainers on strength and conditioning. Do you honestly think those games in September were the peak of his ability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The PatternMaster Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='Mikey6866' timestamp='1331043924' post='1102591'] In 2 years time the cap is expected to go up almost 50% due to the new TV deals....the cap is gonna skyrocket right before Aj and Dalton come due for extension....were gonna have tons of cap room when they both come due. We could technically sign Carl Nicks and Mario Williams this year abd lock up the core of our team in the future without being too cap strapped. [b]OG's dont score points but they give Dalton more time to hit a WR or opens up a hole for a RB to get the TD. Having good G's and Oline in general is pretty important if you want to be sucessful.[/b] [/quote] I understand that, but my point is you would paying one guy more than the combined salaries of the qb, wr, te, and rb's who do score points. That's like a business paying the admin more than sales guys, it's not a strong business model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='Jason' timestamp='1331047650' post='1102611'] So true. It's a crying shame NFL teams don't have weight rooms and strength coaches. Oh, wait, they do. [/quote] And in most off seasons Boling would have had some time in the weight room before the season started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='The PatternMaster' timestamp='1331047772' post='1102614'] I understand that, but my point is you would paying one guy more than the combined salaries of the qb, wr, te, and rb's who do score points. That's like a business paying the admin more than sales guys, it's not a strong business model. [/quote] You can't compare them because those guys are in rookie contracts and Nicks is a vested NFL veteran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='The PatternMaster' timestamp='1331042651' post='1102585'] I don't understand why everyone loves Boling so much, he did nothing last year when he got the opportunity to play. He performed worse than Livings, but everyone wants to kick Livings to the curb and give the job to Boling...por que`? Yes it would be great to add Nicks but he wants too much money, imo. I think the salary for OG is getting out of hand, you can't have every starter on the team making 8-9 million dollars. Plus we will have re-sign Dalton, Green, Dunlap, Atkins, etc...and they will all want big money deals, so who do want? Nicks or Dalton? Nicks or Green? OG's don't score pts, they dont' sack the qb, or generate turnovers. Sure having the best OG would be great, but it's not better than the best qb/wr combo in the NFL, which is what we will have in the next 2-3 years. And if we want to keep them we will need every bit of cap space we have to do so. I would rather plan for the future and fiscally responsible than throw money at a perceived area of need just because we have it to spend. [/quote] [quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1331042885' post='1102587'] First Livings has been in the offense for awhile now and still sucks. His technique is horrible and for being as strong as he is, he gets run over too much because he stands up to much and loses the leverage battle. Boling was a rookie and still needed to put on some more muscle. Boling will befine. Come on man...OGs may not score points, but an offense doesn't score point if an OG can't block. It's a team game and if OG weren't important they would get rid of them right? [/quote] I don't think they would get rid of the guard position, but go through the first round and see how many have been taken. Look at last year. Livings obviously target No. 1 as bad. Boling was horrible. We had a horrible guard problem last season. Still made the playoffs. The overall line played well enough for 3 guys to play in a pro bowl during a playoff season. You have to consider the value of the position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1331048069' post='1102618'] I don't think they would get rid of the guard position, but go through the first round and see how many have been taken. Look at last year. Livings obviously target No. 1 as bad. Boling was horrible. We had a horrible guard problem last season. Still made the playoffs. The overall line played well enough for 3 guys to play in a pro bowl during a playoff season. You have to consider the value of the position. [/quote] Right but if the team had good guards where would they have made it? Would they have been good enough to win the division? Would they have gotten a first round bye? Imagine the possibilities. How mnay times did the Bengals have a third and short and couldn't get a first down run up the middle? The Bengals offensive line was on of the most penalized teams in the NFL. How many times were the Bengals stopped in the Redzone and had to kick a field goal? Don't settle for just making the playoffs, think bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 The development of Boling can go either way. Alexander has gotten decent mileage out of some undrafted players but also has some middle round picks that don't do jack shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1331048389' post='1102621'] The development of Boling can go either way. Alexander has gotten decent mileage out of some undrafted players but also has some middle round picks that don't do jack shit. [/quote] People say McNally is only here to watch film from home and consult, but I would almost guarentee he is at training camp. He might not be at games but he will do some coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1331048251' post='1102619'] Right but if the team had good guards where would they have made it? Would they have been good enough to win the division? Would they have gotten a first round bye? Imagine the possibilities. How mnay times did the Bengals have a third and short and couldn't get a first down run up the middle? The Bengals offensive line was on of the most penalized teams in the NFL. How many times were the Bengals stopped in the Redzone and had to kick a field goal? Don't settle for just making the playoffs, think bigger. [/quote] you know, I went to get the penalty stat for this, but surprisingly found this instead: [size=4]on "[/size][left][size=4]rushes on 3rd or 4th down with 2 or fewer yards to go that achieved a first down or TD. Also includes rushes on 1st-and-goal and 2nd-and-goal from the opponent's 2-yard line or closer." [/size][size=3][size=4] [/size][size=4]up the middle, the Bengals had a [b]perfect success rate.[/b] It was running to the left and right where they struggled the most.[/size][/size] [url="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&season=2011&seasonType=REG&role=TM&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&conference=ALL&d-447263-s=RUSHING_CENTER_POWER"]http://www.nfl.com/s...NG_CENTER_POWER[/url][/left] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1331048772' post='1102623'] you know, I went to get the penalty stat for this, but surprisingly found this instead: on "[left]rushes on 3rd or 4th down with 2 or fewer yards to go that achieved a first down or TD. Also includes rushes on 1st-and-goal and 2nd-and-goal from the opponent's 2-yard line or closer." [size=3] [size=4]up the middle, the Bengals had a [b]perfect success rate.[/b] It was running to the left and right where they struggled the most.[/size][/size] [url="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&season=2011&seasonType=REG&role=TM&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&conference=ALL&d-447263-s=RUSHING_CENTER_POWER"]http://www.nfl.com/s...NG_CENTER_POWER[/url] [/quote] Pfft I watched the games and I don't think many would argue that the Bengals sucked trying to run up the middle and get first downs and TDs.[/left] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The PatternMaster Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='Jason' timestamp='1331047650' post='1102611'] So true. It's a crying shame NFL teams don't have weight rooms and strength coaches. Oh, wait, they do. [/quote] But it's not a sure thing that he will get stronger, that was my point. I know they have strength coaches and weight rooms, but not everybody applies themselves the same way. Do you know who else has a strength coach and weight room, the Univ of Georgia, so if he spent 4 years in there strenght and conditioning program and won awards for his dedication to the program and STILL isn't strong enough to compete at a starters level why would be ready after one offseason in ours. Maybe it's not a strength but a technique issue, or maybe he will never be strong enough. I just don't get the love for Boling, he's done nothing to earn it. Why people think we can just plug him in there and he will go to Pro Bowl after what he showed last season is beyond me and reaks of delusion. Just because you want something bad enough doesn't mean it will happen. I I think Boling has potential but I'm not going to crown is ass just yet, he has to prove he can get the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='The PatternMaster' timestamp='1331049217' post='1102630'] But it's not a sure thing that he will get stronger, that was my point. I know they have strength coaches and weight rooms, but not everybody applies themselves the same way. Do you know who else has a strength coach and weight room, the Univ of Georgia, so if he spent 4 years in there strenght and conditioning program and won awards for his dedication to the program and STILL isn't strong enough to compete at a starters level why would be ready after one offseason in ours. Maybe it's not a strength but a technique issue, or maybe he will never be strong enough. I just don't get the love for Boling, he's done nothing to earn it. Why people think we can just plug him in there and he will go to Pro Bowl after what he showed last season is beyond me and reaks of delusion. Just because you want something bad enough doesn't mean it will happen. I I think Boling has potential but I'm not going to crown is ass just yet, he has to prove he can get the job done. [/quote] I don't think anyone is crowning him, we are doing the same thing you are as far as waiting to see if he can become the player the coaches think he can be. The only difference between you and some of us is, you are less optimistic that he can do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1331048251' post='1102619'] Right but if the team had good guards where would they have made it? Would they have been good enough to win the division? Would they have gotten a first round bye? Imagine the possibilities. How mnay times did the Bengals have a third and short and couldn't get a first down run up the middle? The Bengals offensive line was on of the most penalized teams in the NFL. How many times were the Bengals stopped in the Redzone and had to kick a field goal? Don't settle for just making the playoffs, think bigger. [/quote] Who is advocating for not having "good" guards??????? I'm questioning the value. Believe it or not, good guards can be found other places and the Bengals have proven the ability to cover up lower teir guard players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1331049735' post='1102638'] Who is advocating for not having "good" guards??????? I'm questioning the value. Believe it or not, good guards can be found other places and the Bengals have proven the ability to cover up lower teir guard players. [/quote] And how well has that worked for them? The best guard the Bengals have had in the last 10 year is Whitworth...who is a tackle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1331049816' post='1102639'] And how well has that worked for them? The best guard the Bengals have had in the last 10 year is Whitworth...who is a tackle! [/quote] As noted 2 playoffs seasons in the last 3 years. Bobbie Williams has been a solid guard for them which was a 2nd round pick of the Eagles and nice FA signing for the Bengals. What point are you trying to prove? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1331050408' post='1102644'] As noted 2 playoffs seasons in the last 3 years. [/quote] So you are happy with just making it to the first round of the playoffs and losing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1331050449' post='1102645'] So you are happy with just making it to the first round of the playoffs and losing? [/quote] I just answered your question. Having the guard situation over the past 3 years has gotten them 2 playoff season in 3 seasons. Is that something that should make me want the highest paid guard in the league? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1331050937' post='1102649'] I just answered your question. Having the guard situation over the past 3 years has gotten them 2 playoff season in 3 seasons. Is that something that should make me want the highest paid guard in the league? [/quote] You ever heard the saying "Putting them over the top?" They got the money why not upgrade your worst position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1331051060' post='1102650'] You ever heard the saying "Putting them over the top?" They got the money why not upgrade your worst position? [/quote] Again, who is advocating not to upgrade the guards? So you think the only way to get over the top is to pay a mega deal to a Free Agent Guard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1331051475' post='1102654'] Again, who is advocating not to upgrade the guards? So you think the only way to get over the top is to pay a mega deal to a Free Agent Guard? [/quote] I'm not arguing for Nicks, I think we are having a miscommunication here. Patternmaster was saying that guards weren't important and I am arguing they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1331047732' post='1102613'] you can find it stated multiple places that the lockout effected rookie olinemen as much as any other position group. Not only from a mental standpoint, but particularly from a strength and conditioning standpoint. It would be absolutely stupid to write off Boling, who was a highly regarded guard prospect, at this point in his career based off of 4 games in his rookie season. Sure, he's not going to just wake up stronger. That's a dumb comment. However, he's now had 6 months since those games to work with the trainers on strength and conditioning. Do you honestly think those games in September were the peak of his ability? [/quote] i haven't seen anyone write him off. i know i surely haven't. but on the side of the argument, there are posters here who are trying to say he's automatically ready to plug in as a starter this year. logic would tell you he has done nothing to merit that elevated status. so i see him as an unknown, nothing more, nothing less... as much of an unknown as any other reserve guard on this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1331051781' post='1102658'] I'm not arguing for Nicks, I think we are having a miscommunication here. Patternmaster was saying that guards weren't important and I am arguing they are. [/quote] Patternmaster is closer to being right than you are, IMO. It's not importance but rather value. Good guards and the impact they have can be found alot of places. The drop off in impact from having the League's best guard to having a solid tier guard is not big, IMO. I would say the Bengals are in even a better situation given their tackle position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The PatternMaster Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1331049816' post='1102639'] And how well has that worked for them? The best guard the Bengals have had in the last 10 year is Whitworth...who is a tackle! [/quote] What about Bobbie Williams, he's been pretty good since he came here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1331052245' post='1102662'] Patternmaster is closer to being right than you are, IMO. It's not importance but rather value. Good guards and the impact they have can be found alot of places. The drop off in impact from having the League's best guard to having a solid tier guard is not big, IMO. [/quote] That's good in all if youwant to wait a year or two for them to develop like Boling. Personally I don't want to see the same thing to happen to Dalton that happend to Carson. Get guys that contribute NOW and not waste the good years of Dalton's career trying to develop guys around him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 [quote name='The PatternMaster' timestamp='1331049217' post='1102630'] But it's not a sure thing that he will get stronger, that was my point. I know they have strength coaches and weight rooms, but not everybody applies themselves the same way. Do you know who else has a strength coach and weight room, the Univ of Georgia, so if he spent 4 years in there strenght and conditioning program and won awards for his dedication to the program and STILL isn't strong enough to compete at a starters level why would be ready after one offseason in ours. Maybe it's not a strength but a technique issue, or maybe he will never be strong enough. I just don't get the love for Boling, he's done nothing to earn it. Why people think we can just plug him in there and he will go to Pro Bowl after what he showed last season is beyond me and reaks of delusion. Just because you want something bad enough doesn't mean it will happen. I I think Boling has potential but I'm not going to crown is ass just yet, he has to prove he can get the job done. [/quote] If he doesn't then our strength and conditioning coach needs to be fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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