Gun law debate

[The_Joker]

I never engage in these debates because there is no point. Like abortion, people believe a certain way and will not be swayed. These are deep rooted beliefs and to argue the facts are pointless. Due to the recent events I wanted to look at other aspects of the argument. I think everyone wil agree that innocent children should be protected especially when the parents have no control. To this day it amazes me that our schools are not more secure. They build these new schools with no added protection. Buzz people in? glass that can be shot out. No police presence for most schools any way. This goes beyond the gun law debate. In this new era our schools are just not safe. Meter maid cops giving piss ant tickets for traffic violations would be better served standing at the front door of every school in this country. You will never out law guns but the the agency sworn to protect and serve could start doing that instead of wasting tax payers money on generating revenue for the department. It's a shame. If you work for law enforcement I challenge you to bring this concept to your office. Leave your alpha male personality aside and start protecting and serving.

[sois]

Security shit costs money, homie.

[T-Dub]

If you had a point there other than criticizing cops for not being everywhere at all times, I sure missed it.

Apologies if that was sincere but it came off as a broadside volley of trollcannon.

[The_Joker]

It's not free but what is? Never said they should be everywhere at all times either. The point, which you missed was instead of patrolling like barney fife put one police officer at every door of every school. protect and serve...

[sois]

[quote name='The_Joker' timestamp='1355797570' post='1195024']
It's not free but what is? Never said they should be everywhere at all times either. The point, which you missed was instead of patrolling like barney fife put one police officer at every door of every school. protect and serve...
[/quote]

I like this idea as alternative to handing out chicken shit tickets, but that is hella expensive.

There's like 200 public schools here and @ 50k per cop = $1,000,000. Where is this cash going to come from?

[The_Joker]

They are already on the payroll take one and stop burning gas and stand a post. I know it's not as exciting as chasing down that mom in a mini van that just blew a yellow light- but if the public pays for education then the entity should be responsible for the safe keeping of our children while they are out of our control.
Remember this solution is in lieu of the gun control debate, which will never happen. The point is, Who is keeping our kids safe when we turn them over to be educated? A buzzer at the school door? Glass that can be kicked in? UN-FUCKing-Acceptable! The school system owns this responsibility. Do you realize the pay of the admin staff. I am not talking teachers...I am talking about people sitting on the board who rarely go to the schools in their disct. Hundreds of thousands of dollars...gov't over pay at it's finest.

[gatorclaws]

IMO, a cop at the door would have just been victim #1.

If people weren't assholes, cops wouldn't need to be chasing down traffic violations. Without having any numbers to back it up, the mom in the mini van blowing through an intersection has to be responsible for more child deaths than madmen shooting up schools. People want all this extra protection but then shit a brick if their taxes go up a penny. If cops weren't doing this so called revenue generation they wouldn't have the funds to exist.

You're going to have to try harder if you want me to believe our kids are in more danger at school than they are at any other public place.

This thread is poorly titled. There's no gun law debate going on here.

[Jamie_B]

Someone's take that I dont nessasarily agree with but am putting forth to foster debate so I can take some ideas back to the person that gave this to me.

[url="http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/"]http://www.policeone...nemy-is-denial/[/url]

[quote]
[b] Active shooters in schools: The enemy is denial[/b]

[b] Preventing juvenile mass murder in American schools is the job of police officers, school teachers, and concerned parents[/b]



[i][b]Editor's Note:[/b] Today we bring you the first in an occasional series of articles stemming from an extraordinary daylong seminar presented by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. In coming months we’ll discuss Grossman’s thoughts on the use of autogenic breathing, surviving gunshot wounds, and dealing with survivor guilt following a gun battle. We begin with violence among and against children in our schools. We would like to extend our special thanks to Gary Peterson, Mike Elerick, and the men and women of the California Peace Officers Association (Region II) for their warm invitation to this remarkable talk. On Saturday, May 8th, CPOA is holding its annual Memorial Run and Family BBQ, honoring California officers who died in the line of duty in 2009. Additional details are [url="http://www.policeone.com/PDFs/CPOA-May3-Event.pdf"]available here[/url].[/i]


“How many kids have been killed by school fire in all of North America in the past 50 years? Kids killed... school fire... North America... 50 years... How many? Zero. That’s right. Not one single kid has been killed by school fire anywhere in North America in the past half a century. Now, how many kids have been killed by school violence?”

So began an extraordinary daylong seminar presented by [url="http://www.killology.com/bio.htm"]Lt. Col. Dave Grossman[/url], a Pulitzer Prize nominated author, West Point psychology professor, and without a doubt the world’s foremost expert on human aggression and violence. The event, hosted by the [url="http://www.cpoa.org/"]California Peace Officers Association[/url], was held in the auditorium of a very large community church about 30 miles from San Francisco, and was attended by more than 250 police officers from around the region.

Grossman’s talk spanned myriad topics of vital importance to law enforcement, such as the use of autogenic breathing, surviving gunshot wounds, dealing with survivor guilt following a gun battle, and others. In coming months, I will present a series of articles addressing many of these subjects, but violence among and against children was how the day began, and so it is in this area I will begin my coverage...

“In 1998,” Grossman said, “school violence claimed what at the time was an all time record number of kids’ lives. In that year there were 35 dead and a quarter of a million serious injuries due to violence in the school. How many killed by fire that year? Zero. But we hear people say, ‘[i]That’s the year Columbine happened, that’s an anomaly.[/i]’ Well, in 2004 we had a new all time record — 48 dead in the schools from violence. How many killed by fire that year? Zero. Let’s assign some grades. Put your teacher hat on and give out some grades. What kind of grade do you give the firefighter for keeping kids safe? An ‘A,’ right? Reluctantly, reluctantly, the cops give the firefighters an ‘A,’ right? Danged firefighters, they sleep ‘till they’re hungry and eat ‘till they’re tired. What grade do [b][u][i]we[/i][/u][/b] get for keeping the kids safe from violence? Come on, what’s our grade? Needs improvement, right?”

[b]Johnny Firefighter, A+ Student[/b]
“Why can’t we be like little Johnny Firefighter?” Grossman asked as he prowled the stage. “He’s our A+ student!”

He paused, briefly, and answered with a voice that blew through the hall like thunder, “Denial, denial, denial!”

Grossman commanded, “Look up at the ceiling! See all those sprinklers up there? They’re hard to spot — they’re painted black — but they’re there. While you’re looking, look at the material the ceiling is made of. You know that that stuff was selected because it’s fire-retardant. Hooah? Now look over there above the door — you see that fire exit sign? That’s not just any fire exit sign — that’s a ‘battery-backup-when-the-world-ends-it-will-still-be-lit’ fire exit sign. Hooah?”

Walking from the stage toward a nearby fire exit and exterior wall, Grossman slammed the palm of his hand against the wall and exclaimed, “Look at these wall boards! They were chosen because they’re what?! Fireproof or fire retardant, hooah? There is not one stinking thing in this room that will burn!”

Pointing around the room as he spoke, Grossman continued, “But you’ve still got those fire sprinklers, those fire exit signs, fire hydrants outside, and fire trucks nearby! Are these fire guys crazy? Are these fire guys paranoid? NO! This fire guy is our A+ student! Because this fire guy has redundant, overlapping layers of protection, not a single kid has been killed by school fire in the last 50 years!

“But you try to prepare for violence — the thing much more likely to kill our kids in schools, the thing [u][i]hundreds of times[/i][/u] more likely to kill our kids in schools — and people think you’re paranoid. They think you’re crazy. ...They’re in denial.”

[b]Teaching the Teachers[/b]
The challenge for law enforcement agencies and officers, then, is to overcome not only the attacks taking place in schools, but to first overcome the denial in the minds of mayors, city councils, school administrators, and parents. Grossman said that agencies and officers, although facing an uphill slog against the denial of the general public, must diligently work toward increasing understanding among the sheep that the wolves are coming for their children. Police officers must train and drill with teachers, not only so responding officers are intimately familiar with the facilities, but so that teachers know what they can do in the event of an attack.

“Come with me to the library at Columbine High School,” Grossman said. “The teacher in the library at Columbine High School spent her professional lifetime preparing for a fire, and we can all agree if there had been a fire in that library, that teacher would have instinctively, reflexively known what to do. But the thing most likely to kill her kids — the thing hundreds of times more likely to kill her kids, the teacher didn’t have a clue what to do. She should have put those kids in the librarian’s office but she didn’t know that. So she did the worst thing possible — she tried to secure her kids in an un-securable location. She told the kids to hide in the library — a library that has plate glass windows for walls. It’s an aquarium, it’s a fish bowl. She told the kids to hide in a fishbowl. What did those killers see? They saw targets. They saw fish in a fish bowl.”

Grossman said that if the school administrators at Columbine had spent a fraction of the money they’d spent preparing for fire — if the teachers there had spent a fraction of the time they spent preparing for fire — doing lockdown drills and talking with local law enforcers about the violent dangers they face, the outcome that day may have been different.

Rhetorically he asked the assembled cops, “If somebody had spent [b][u][i]five minutes[/i][/u][/b] telling that teacher what to do, do you think lives would have been saved at Columbine?”

[b]Arming Campus Cops is Elementary[/b]
Nearly two years ago, I wrote an article called [url="http://www.policeone.com/police-products/body-armor/articles/1713022-Arming-campus-cops-is-elementary/"]Arming campus cops is elementary[/url]. Not surprisingly, Grossman agrees with that hypothesis.

“Never call an unarmed man ‘security’,” Grossman said.

“Call him ‘run-like-hell-when-the-man-with-the-gun-shows-up’ but never call an unarmed man security. Imagine if someone said, ‘[i]I want a trained fire professional on site. I want a fire hat, I want a fire uniform, I want a fire badge. But! No fire extinguishers in this building. No fire hoses. The hat, the badge, the uniform — that will keep us safe — but we have no need for fire extinguishers.[/i]’ Well, that would be insane. It is equally insane, delusional, legally liable, to say, ‘[i]I want a trained security professional on site. I want a security hat, I want a security uniform, and I want a security badge, but I don’t want a gun.[/i]’ It’s not the hat, the uniform, or the badge. It’s the tools in the hands of a trained professional that keeps us safe.

“Our problem is not money,” said Grossman. “It is denial.”

Grossman said (and most cops agree) that many of the most important things we can do to protect our kids would cost us nothing or next-to-nothing.

[b]Grossman’s Five D’s[/b]

In the next installment of this series, I will explore what follows in much greater detail, but for now, let’s contemplate the following outline and summary of Dave Grossman’s “Five D’s.” While you do, I encourage you to add in [url="http://www.policeone.com/school-violence/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/#comments_block"]the comments area below[/url] your suggestions to address, and expand upon, these ideas.
[indent=1]
[b]1. Denial — [/b]Denial is the enemy and it has no survival value, said Grossman.
[b]2. Deter —[/b] Put police officers in schools, because with just one officer assigned to a school, the probability of a mass murder in that school drops to almost zero
[b]3. Detect —[/b] We’re talking about plain old fashioned police work here. The ultimate achievement for law enforcement is the crime that didn’t happen, so giving teachers and administrators regular access to cops is paramount.
[b]4. Delay — [/b]Various simple mechanisms can be used by teachers and cops to put time and distance between the killers and the kids.[/indent]
[indent=1]
[b]a.[/b] Ensure that the school/classroom have just a single point of entry. Simply locking the back door helps create a hard target.
[b]b.[/b] Conduct your active shooter drills within (and in partnership with) the schools in your city so teachers know how to respond, and know what it looks like when you do your response.[/indent]
[b]5. Destroy — [/b]Police officers and agencies should consider the following:
[indent=1]
[b]a.[/b] Carry off duty. No one would tell a firefighter who has a fire extinguisher in his trunk that he’s crazy or paranoid.
[b]b.[/b] Equip every cop in America with a patrol rifle. One chief of police, upon getting rifles for all his officers once said, “If an active killer strikes in my town, the response time will be measured in feet per second.”
[b]c.[/b] Put smoke grenades in the trunk of every cop car in America. Any infantryman who needs to attack across open terrain or perform a rescue under fire deploys a smoke grenade. A fire extinguisher will do a decent job in some cases, but a smoke grenade is designed to perform the function.
[b]d.[/b] Have a “go-to-war bag” filled with lots of loaded magazines and supplies for tactical combat casualty care.
[b]e.[/b] Use helicopters. Somewhere in your county you probably have one or more of the following: medivac, media, private, national guard, coast guard rotors.
[b]f.[/b] Employ the crew-served, continuous-feed, weapon you already have available to you (a firehouse) by integrating the fire service into your active shooter training. It is virtually impossible for a killer to put well-placed shots on target while also being blasted with water at 300 pounds per square inch.
[b]g.[/b] Armed citizens can help. Think [b][i][u]United 93[/u][/i][/b]. Whatever your personal take on gun control, it is all but certain that a killer set on killing is more likely to attack a target where the citizens are unarmed, rather than one where they are likely to encounter an armed citizen response.[/indent]

[b]Coming Soon: External Threats[/b]
Today we must not only prepare for juvenile mass murder, something that had never happened in human history until only recently, but we also must prepare for the external threat. Islamist fanatics have slaughtered children in their own religion — they have killed wantonly, mercilessly, and without regard for repercussion or regret of any kind. What do you think they’d think of killing our kids?

“Eight years ago they came and killed 3,000 of our citizens. Do we know what they’re going to do next? No! But one thing they’ve done in every country they’ve messed with is killing kids in schools.”

The latest al Qaeda charter states that “children are noble targets” and Osama bin Laden himself has said that “Russia is a preview for what we will do to America.”

What happened in Russia that we need to be concerned with in this context? In the town of Beslan on September 1, 2004 — the very day on which children across that country merrily make their return to school after the long summer break — radical Islamist terrorists from Chechnya took more than 1,000 teachers, mothers, and children hostage. When the three-day siege was over, more than 300 hostages had been killed, more than half of whom were children.

“If I could tackle every American and make them read one book to help them understand the terrorist’s plan, it would be [i][url="http://www.amazon.com/Terror-Beslan-Russian-Tragedy-Americas/dp/0976775301"]Terror at Beslan[/url][/i] by John Giduck. Beslan was just a dress rehearsal for what they’re planning to do to the United States.”

A future feature will focus solely on the issue of the terror threats against American schools, but for the time being consider this: There are almost a half a million school busses in America — it would require every enlisted person and every officer in the entire Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps combined to put just one armed guard on every school bus in the country.

As a country and as a culture, the level of protection Americans afford our kids against violence is nothing near what we do to protect them from fire. Grossman is correct: Denial is the enemy. We must prepare for violence like the firefighter prepares for fire. And we must do that today.
Hooah, Colonel![/quote]

[T-Dub]

So the argument is that the elementary school art teacher should also be trained in CQC?

lolwut

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1355846869' post='1195190']
So the argument is that the elementary school art teacher should also be trained in CQC?

lolwut
[/quote]

you laugh but there are alot of folks saying this now, we need a better response to it than "lolwut"


[b] [/b]

[Jamie_B]

[url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/joe-scarborough-newtown-shooting_n_2315100.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular"][b]Joe Scarborough: Newtown Shooting Made 'Ideologies Of My Past' On Guns Irrelevant (VIDEO)[/b][/url]

[T-Dub]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1355849492' post='1195220']
you laugh but there are alot of folks saying this now, we need a better response to it than "lolwut"[/quote]


You're probably right, but it seemed the most appropriate. That's some callous shit to suggest, considering some of the victims died protecting those kids. It's another variation of "blame the victim", in my opinion. The problem is, was, and will continue to be heavily-armed psychopaths. That is the problem that needs to be addressed, not the lack of sandbags & well-coordinated fire teams in our schools. I think it runs into a deeper question of what kind of nation we want to become in the 21st century.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1355850822' post='1195233']
You're probably right, but it seemed the most appropriate. That's some callous shit to suggest, considering some of the victims died protecting those kids. It's another variation of "blame the victim", in my opinion. The problem is, was, and will continue to be heavily-armed psychopaths. That is the problem that needs to be addressed, not the lack of sandbags & well-coordinated fire teams in our schools. I think it runs into a deeper question of what kind of nation we want to become in the 21st century.
[/quote]

I completely agree with you. However at the same time if we dont respond to this irrational answer with rationally it will gain traction imo.

[The_Joker]

Again, I think the point is being overlooked. One officer at the door is a natural deterrent. No one is staying stage seal team six at every school. If you have a child then you know as you look into their innocent eyes that you cant protect them when you turn them over to a school. You trust they will be cared for.
It is impossible to know when someone is going to snap. But NO defensive measure at the point of attack is nothing more than an invitation for these assholes. Taking your gun rights is not an option. Doing nothing is not an option. Hell, if the 50k a year is your issue fire every music teacher and use that money to pay for it. Marching bands are fucking stupid anyway. If you want your kid to play an instrument pay for it yourself. Doing nothing is no longer an option because it will happen again, we just don't know when or where.

[sois]

[quote name='The_Joker' timestamp='1355853519' post='1195262']
[b]Hell, if the 50k a year is your issue fire every music teacher and use that money to pay for it. Marching bands are fucking stupid anyway. If you want your kid to play an instrument pay for it yourself. Doing nothing is no longer an option because it will happen again, we just don't know when or where.[/b]
[/quote]

ahhaahahah I am actually kinda liking your idea now. All it takes is to insult some people and I'm in.

Yeah, put one cop at the school.

Oh yeah, this reminds me, our school had security guards. Did this school not have any?

[Jamie_B]

Get rid of marching bands? Arent we kind of already strapped for school money and slowly doing that anyway?

Personally if I wasnt in marching band as a kid, who knows how I would have ended up, it kind of gave me dicipline.

[sois]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1355854194' post='1195267']
Personally if I wasnt in marching band as a kid, who knows how I would have ended up,[b] it kind of gave me dicipline.[/b]
[/quote]

And lots of girls with low self esteem

PS But in Joker's land, you would never get to those low self esteem girls if you died. Therefore, I still like his idea.

[The_Joker]

No this school didn't.

Insult? Just because my opinion of a marching band? Cops? If your offended then I must be right on track.. I doubt that you have a child that you send to school with no protection or you would at least admit our allocation of jobs in the public sector should be evaluated to allow some level of security for our children. The problem is multi faceted. Identify the nut jobs (hard to do) strict gun laws (not the end all solution) protection at the source (easier to implement and control at the local level). Our elected officials need to look at the resources available i.e. reservists, reallocation, etc...

[The_Joker]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1355854194' post='1195267']
Get rid of marching bands? Arent we kind of already strapped for school money and slowly doing that anyway?

Personally if I wasnt in marching band as a kid, who knows how I would have ended up, it kind of gave me dicipline.
[/quote]
Hell no...there is one every halftime at the bengals games. I have been waiting for the frisbee catching dogs to return for years.
You would have been fine...I have met you in person..lol.

[sois]

[quote name='The_Joker' timestamp='1355854876' post='1195271']
No this school didn't.

Insult? Just because my opinion of a marching band? Cops? If your offended then I must be right on track.. I doubt that you have a child that you send to school with no protection or you would at least admit our allocation of jobs in the public sector should be evaluated to allow some level of security for our children. The problem is multi faceted. Identify the nut jobs (hard to do) strict gun laws (not the end all solution) protection at the source (easier to implement and control at the local level). Our elected officials need to look at the resources available i.e. reservists, reallocation, etc...
[/quote]

I'm not offended, homie. I like insulting marching bands, cause they're hella gay, except the ones that are brass & drums only.

I like your idea. Instead of handing out chicken shit traffic tickets, cops can be at schools patrolling. I'm in.

But that is weird how my school had a bunch of security guards in the 90s and this school in the 10s didn't have anything.

[The_Joker]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1355855195' post='1195273']


I'm not offended, homie. I like insulting marching bands, cause they're hella gay, except the ones that are brass & drums only.

I like your idea. Instead of handing out chicken shit traffic tickets, cops can be at schools patrolling. I'm in.

But that is weird how my school had a bunch of security guards in the 90s and this school in the 10s didn't have anything.
[/quote]

Since you use the word "homie" I can only assume you went to an urban school where the general population couldnt behave if you offered a $100 reward at the end of the day. The guards were there to protect the teachers from hood rats that are all the next OG rap star playa that have no respect for authority. Make it rain!!!!!! Of course this is some how my fault.
These shootings have happened in rural schools in small towns. At most you have to ring a buzzer to have the admin let you in. In this case the kid shot the glass and kicked in the glass. This school in CT. Is in a small town there would never be a reason to expect something like that.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='The_Joker' timestamp='1355855116' post='1195272']
Hell no...there is one every halftime at the bengals games. I have been waiting for the frisbee catching dogs to return for years.
You would have been fine...I have met you in person..lol.
[/quote]



All I'm saying is for me marching band was my outlet, perhaps instead of making cuts in these areas so we can put guards at schools we address the root of the problem and give kids outlets to deal with their issues.

I've gone to a school with armed security, its not something I'm comfortable with as a solution.

[The_Joker]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1355858294' post='1195289']




All I'm saying is for me marching band was my outlet, perhaps instead of making cuts in these areas so we can put guards at schools we address the root of the problem and give kids outlets to deal with their issues.

I've gone to a school with armed security, its not something I'm comfortable with as a solution.
[/quote]

So profile these nut jobs...hell half of this board would be under review...lol

[gatorclaws]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1355858294' post='1195289']


All I'm saying is for me marching band was my outlet, perhaps instead of making cuts in these areas so we can put guards at schools we address the root of the problem and give kids outlets to deal with their issues.

I've gone to a school with armed security, its not something I'm comfortable with as a solution.
[/quote]

I agree with that. The kids with the issues seem to always feel like they are an outcast and don't belong. Something like marching band and other after school activities are a great outlet since in additon to the skills learned they feel like they belong to something. It's too bad things like that are always on the chopping block.

[sois]

[quote name='The_Joker' timestamp='1355858069' post='1195288']
Since you use the word "homie" I can only assume you went to an urban school where the general population couldnt behave if you offered a $100 reward at the end of the day. The guards were there to protect the teachers from hood rats that are all the next OG rap star playa that have no respect for authority. Make it rain!!!!!! Of course this is some how my fault.
These shootings have happened in rural schools in small towns. At most you have to ring a buzzer to have the admin let you in. In this case the kid shot the glass and kicked in the glass. This school in CT. Is in a small town there would never be a reason to expect something like that.
[/quote]

Let's outlaw small towns.