Defense

[Guest A-Men-HouseofPain]

[quote name='Jeb' post='386453' date='Nov 14 2006, 01:23 PM']I buy all of that. You've been studying the D for a while now.[/quote]
i chose to post intelligently for a change. everyone always says i dont.

[Jeb]

[quote name='A-Men-HouseofPain' post='386489' date='Nov 14 2006, 01:48 PM']i chose to post intelligently for a change. everyone always says i dont.[/quote]

You've been all over our D ever since before the draft and I always thought you had a good grasp the problem.

[Guest A-Men-HouseofPain]

[quote name='Jeb' post='386503' date='Nov 14 2006, 01:59 PM']You've been all over our D ever since before the draft and I always thought you had a good grasp the problem.[/quote]
you are probably the ONLY person who would say anything postive about me. Thanks.

[Jeb]

[quote name='A-Men-HouseofPain' post='386520' date='Nov 14 2006, 02:11 PM']you are probably the ONLY person who would say anything postive about me. Thanks.[/quote]

Bickering is one thing but the truth is always the truth. Everyone here recognizes quality when they see it.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='A-Men-HouseofPain' post='386416' date='Nov 14 2006, 12:57 PM']the first half they didnt give LT many touches in the passing game or quality running plays in the run game. In the 2nd half they utilized LT much better. That was the difference. The no huddle wasnt the reason. The reason was our D is bad and LT is good and they got him the ball more and let him make plays.
do we have Richard Seymour? nope. do we have Teddy Bruschi? nope.
defenses need a playmaker. The past few years the Colts D hasnt been great, but it has been good enough to win. Dwight Freeney had great seasons all those years. Freeney is having a bad season this year and look at the Colts D, they are significantly worse. If Freeney picks up that whole D will and he makes them significantly better by himself. The games that Julius Peppers plays well, the Panthers usually win. We dont have that playmaker on defense.

Smith is solid, but nothing like a star and we dont have a star at LB either. Hell we dont even have 3 worthy Starting LBs. Our defense would be servicable if we had at least 2 of Pollack, Thurman, Simmons, but we dont have any right now. Once the starting LBs went down i didnt expect our D to hold any teams under 30 points. They have done better in most games until this past one than i expected. Deltha is also hurt and isnt able to play very agressive and that hurts a lot too. Madeiu is just having a bad year, im not sure why. Maybe because LBs arent taking blockers out of the way or something. idk. I just know this defense is built around LBs and the Bengals LBs are either inexperienced or backups/STs at best.[/quote]



Why do you make excuses? [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/3.gif[/img]

[Guest A-Men-HouseofPain]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='386533' date='Nov 14 2006, 02:19 PM']Why do you make excuses? [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img][/quote]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='A-Men-HouseofPain' post='386555' date='Nov 14 2006, 02:31 PM'][/quote]

[Guest A-Men-HouseofPain]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='386557' date='Nov 14 2006, 02:32 PM'][/quote]

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='steggyD' post='386288' date='Nov 14 2006, 09:06 AM']I like Marvin, yeah. Not defending him as much as pointing something out that might be a huge factor. Where's our stats people?

How many points did we score per game in 2002, as compared to the years after, especially 2004 and on?

Honestly, I just don't remember out D being any good before or after Marvin came. I always felt like any team could walk all over us at any time they felt the need to.[/quote]


2002: Bengals scored 279 points and allowed 456. That averages out to 17 points scored 28.5 allowed a game.
2003: Bengals scored 346 points and allowed 384. That averages out to 22 points scored 24 allowed a game.
2004: Bengals scored 374 points and allowed 372. That averages out to 23 points scored 23 allowed a game.
2005:Bengals scored 421 points and allowed 350. That averages out to 26 points scored 21.8 allowed a game.
2006: Bengals have scored 216 points and allowed 217. That averages out to 24 points scored and 24.1 allowed a game.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='386609' date='Nov 14 2006, 03:25 PM']2002: Bengals scored 279 points and allowed 456. That averages out to 17 points scored 28.5 allowed a game.
2003: Bengals scored 346 points and allowed 384. That averages out to 22 points scored 24 allowed a game.
2004: Bengals scored 374 points and allowed 372. That averages out to 23 points scored 23 allowed a game.
2005:Bengals scored 421 points and allowed 350. That averages out to 26 points scored 21.8 allowed a game.
[b]2006: Bengals have scored 216 points and allowed 217. That averages out to 24 points scored and 24.1 allowed a game.[/b][/quote]


And thats with missing the 3 starting LBs

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='386613' date='Nov 14 2006, 02:27 PM']And thats with missing the 3 starting LBs[/quote]

The points per game allowed dropped dramatically and improved every year since Marvin`s taken over,
until this season too.


And points allowed per game IS the most important stat...

[Guest fredtoast]

[quote name='A-Men-HouseofPain' post='386425' date='Nov 14 2006, 01:09 PM']it happend another year too, when they won. But they didnt lose any TOP defensive players like they did last season. Last year they lost their top players, the year of the SB they lost role guys and some starters, but no stars. Seymour, Wilfork, Bruschi, Harrison make up that defense. Last year all but Wilfork got hurt and they werent that good, but survived they didnt have the offensive injuries that we have had.[/quote]

They won their last Super Bowl with a starting CB (Troy Brown) who was a WR until the final games of the season. So I know that they had lost a few DBs, but I don't think they were as banged up as we are. Also the were a GREAT defense before they suffered all those injuries while our defense would have been lucky to crack the top ten even with Pollack, Thurman, Simmons, Jackson, Adams, and Oneal all playing at 100%.

[Guest A-Men-HouseofPain]

[quote name='fredtoast' post='386629' date='Nov 14 2006, 03:41 PM']They won their last Super Bowl with a starting CB (Troy Brown) who was a WR until the final games of the season. So I know that they had lost a few DBs, but I don't think they were as banged up as we are. Also the were a GREAT defense before they suffered all those injuries while our defense would have been lucky to crack the top ten even with Pollack, Thurman, Simmons, Jackson, Adams, and Oneal all playing at 100%.[/quote]
yea, but even their starting CBs werent very good. They were a good D b4 that. With all of our defenders healthy/not suspended i expected our defense to finish 12th. If our D finished 12th in NFL we'd have a shot at the top record in the league. Going into this season i expected 11-5. If i would have known all of these injuries b4 the season started i would have guessed 9-7. Im not that disappointed in the team because we are so depleted it is unreal. We cant make excuses tho, we just need to go out and try to win games and thats what we are doing.

[TheBZ]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='386609' date='Nov 14 2006, 03:25 PM']2002: Bengals scored 279 points and allowed 456. That averages out to 17 points scored 28.5 allowed a game.
2003: Bengals scored 346 points and allowed 384. That averages out to 22 points scored 24 allowed a game.
2004: Bengals scored 374 points and allowed 372. That averages out to 23 points scored 23 allowed a game.
2005:Bengals scored 421 points and allowed 350. That averages out to 26 points scored 21.8 allowed a game.
2006: Bengals have scored 216 points and allowed 217. That averages out to 24 points scored and 24.1 allowed a game.[/quote]

Great post, OLD...And that is why a lot of us had high hopes that it would get down to <=20.0 points allowed this season.

Injuries have derailed that right now, but there are 7 games left to try to improve. That's really all they can do at this stage, and we'll see how it shakes out.

BZ

[cwing]

[quote name='fredtoast' post='386629' date='Nov 14 2006, 03:41 PM']They won their last Super Bowl with a starting CB (Troy Brown) who was a WR until the final games of the season. So I know that they had lost a few DBs, but I don't think they were as banged up as we are. Also the were a GREAT defense before they suffered all those injuries while our defense would have been lucky to crack the top ten even with Pollack, Thurman, Simmons, Jackson, Adams, and Oneal all playing at 100%.[/quote]

Correct. NE won with many injuries. Those injuries were primarly to role players. Their front 7 on D and their O-line, RB, QB all stayed healthy.

We too could afford an injury or two but this is too much -------

[cwing]

[quote name='New Jersey Bengal' post='357206' date='Oct 2 2006, 09:58 AM'][b]Can anyone answer this question. I believe that Marvin Lewis was one of the best defensive coordinators that the NFL has ever seen before becoming a Head Coach. Lovie Smith was a good not great defensive coordinator with the Rams before becoming the Bears head coach. Why then do the Bears have a defense that is a lot better than ours? I just cannot figure out why we cannot have a better defense with Marvin making decisions. [/b][/quote]

Many good posts here ----------- Lovie vs Marvin ---------a better comparsion would b e Tony Dungy vs Marvin.

There is only so much money to go around. When Tony D went to Indy, they had commented to a high powered offense. Since Tony D has been there, they continue to put the majority of their money on the offensive side of the ball. Manning, Harrison, Wayne etc... Tony D built the defense that dominated in TB but his defenses in Indy have been middle of the road at best.

Marvin is in the same boat. Funny how things sometimes work out. Marvin the defensive guy, Belick (Ravens) an offensive guy.......

[Guest A-Men-HouseofPain]

[quote name='cwing' post='386896' date='Nov 14 2006, 10:59 PM']Many good posts here ----------- Lovie vs Marvin ---------a better comparsion woould b e Tony Dungy vs Marvin.
[b]
There is only so much money to go around. When Tony D went to Indy, they had commented to a high powered offense. Since Tony D has been there, they continue to put the majority of their money on the offensive side of the ball. Manning, Harrison, Wayne etc... Tony D built the defense that dominated in TB but his defenses in Indy have been middle of the road at best.
[/b]
Marvin is in the same boat. Funny how things sometimes work out. Marvin the defensive guy, Belick (Ravens) an offensive guy.......[/quote]
another common thing is that injuries have hurt the Indy D pretty bad too. BUT Dungy was doing better. They lost Marcus Washington in FA to the Redskins. Stars like Washington dont come around every day. Losing him killed.



Marvin has some work to do, but he will get it right. He had to not only rebuild a team, but rebuild a community, front office. He rebuilt a city and a franchise from the depths of hell to respect in 3 seasons. People calling for his head should be losing theirs.

[Storm]

[quote name='A-Men-HouseofPain' post='386899' date='Nov 15 2006, 04:05 AM']Marvin has some work to do, but he will get it right. He had to not only rebuild a team, [b]but rebuild a community, front office. He rebuilt a city [b]and a franchise from the depths of hell to respect in 3 seasons. People calling for his head should be losing theirs.[/quote]

No doubt Marvin raised the franchise to respectability but I sure hope you were joking saying he rebuilt the city a community and the front office.

Anyway I can't find too many people calling for his head

[New Jersey Bengal]

[quote name='A-Men-HouseofPain' post='386899' date='Nov 14 2006, 11:05 PM']another common thing is that injuries have hurt the Indy D pretty bad too. BUT Dungy was doing better. They lost Marcus Washington in FA to the Redskins. Stars like Washington dont come around every day. Losing him killed.
Marvin has some work to do, but he will get it right. He had to not only rebuild a team, but rebuild a community, front office. He rebuilt a city and a franchise from the depths of hell to respect in 3 seasons. People calling for his head should be losing theirs.[/quote]
[b]Word[/b]

[Utts]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='357278' date='Oct 2 2006, 11:01 AM']not quite. New England is proof that you can plug about any player into the right scheme.[/quote]

I'd like to see New England win those Super Bowls with the defense we fielded this week. Guess what - no fucking way they could - NO FUCKING WAY.

[Chris Henrys Dealer]

Lovie also struck a home run when they drafted Tommie Harris. He took that D to a whole other level, because basically it allows them to only rush 4 linemen on plays. He is equally good against the run or at rushing the passer. Combine him with Ogunyleye and Alex Brown, you have a pretty fearsome D-line.

We are sorely missing that kind of all-pro distruptive D-tackle.

I think Geathers can be our version of Alex Brown and is possibly a better pass rusher.

[Guest oldschooler]

Hmmmm, I think Lance McAlister must have seen the post I made.
And added to it...


[quote][size=5][b]Why isn't Marvin's defense getting better? [/b][/size]

Year-Points-Yards-NFL rank
'02 28.5, 32nd, 329, 17th (Year prior to Marvin's arrival)
'03 24.0, 28th, 351, 28th
'04 23.3, 19th , 335, 19th
'05 21.9, 22nd, 338, 28th
'06 24.1, 25th, 353, 28th
In Marvin's 4th year, the Bengals are allowing the most points and yards per game since his arrival
[b]Defensive players added thru draft:[/b] 19
[b]2003:[/b]
Dennis Weathersby, CB, 4th round, Langston Moore, DT, 6th round, Elton Patterson, DE, 7th round
[b]2004:[/b]
Keiwan Ratliff, CB, 2nd round, Madieu Williams, S, 2nd round, Caleb Miller, LB, 3rd round,
Landon Johnson, LB, 3rd round, Matthias Askew, DT, 4th round, Robert Geathers, DE, 4th round, Greg Brooks, CB, 6th round
[b]2005:[/b]
David Pollack, LB, 1st round, Odell Thurman, LB, 2nd round, Jonathan Fanene, DE, 7th round
[b]2006:[/b]
Johnathan Joseph, CB, 1st round, Frostee Rucker, DE, 3rd round, Ahmad Brooks, LB, 3rd of supplemental draft, Domata Peko, DT, 4th round, AJ Nicholson, LB, 5th round
Etahn Kilmer, S, 7th round

[b]Free agents of note added:[/b]
John Thornton, Tory James, Sam Adams, Duane Clemons, Kevin Hardy, Bryan Robinson, Rogers Beckett, Kim Herring
[b]Trades:[/b] Deltha O'Neal

[b]Defensive coordinators:[/b] Leslie Frazier, Chuck Bresnahan[/quote]


[url="http://www.lance1530homer.com/blog.asp"]http://www.lance1530homer.com/blog.asp[/url]

[TheChosenOne]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='387017' date='Nov 15 2006, 08:30 AM']Hmmmm, I think Lance McAlister must have seen the post I made.
And added to it...[/quote]

And given it a misleading title. The statistics show that the defense [b]was[/b] getting better, until this year.

[BengalBeotch]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='357280' date='Oct 2 2006, 04:08 PM']The Bengals have 3 ...count them 3 players left on the Defensvie side of the ball from 2002.

KK, Justin Smith and Brian Simmons.

That`s a VERY high turnover rate of players.
Plus they were without their 1st and 2nd round picks from last year.
Plus they were without their starting Safety. Plus they were without
their key backup to their 1st round pick from last year and had a
Caleb Miller starting in his place.
You don`t just come in, gut a Defense, lose key players that you`re counting on to rebuild that defense,
and play like one of the best Defenses in the game. I don`t give a fuck WHO your coach is.[/quote]

sometimes Oldschooler makes too much sense!!!

no seriously, this is exactly it....

[Guest oldschooler]

From Football Outsiders...

[quote][b]Cincinnati [/b] The biggest story in Cincinnati isn't Carson Palmer or Chad Johnson. It's Marvin Lewis's inability to build a good defense. Lewis looked like a genius as the coordinator of a great defense in Baltimore and a very good one in Washington, but it just isn't working in Cincinnati. [b]Rookie linebacker Ahmad Brooks has promise, but aside from him I don't see much talent here.[/b] Sam Adams was a good player for Lewis six years ago, but now he's 33 and just doesn't have any gas left in the tank.[/quote]


[url="http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6175498"]http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6175498[/url]