Illegal Immigrants

[sois]

[quote name='WhoDeyUK' post='495826' date='Jun 5 2007, 12:02 PM']Um, if they want to live in the US, then THEY are the ones who need to embrace the language, and it's English. Just like my family did when the moved to the US. They didn't go whining that the rest of the US needed to start printing every damn thing in Italian, they assimilated into the country, and learned to speak the language.

If that's too much to ask, [/quote]

Here is another situation: Do you really expect millions of hispanics, who's families have been on this land since before it was even a country, to give up their language just because the border moved around them? Also, the country that took over this land is build on embracing other cultures and ideas. Why on earth didn't the founding fathers of America fix this in the first place when people were immigrating originally? Why didn't they say, no to European immigrants and send them back across the ocean when they didn't speak English? It seems that back then, it was ok to let Czechs/Poles/Greeks/Italians into America and allow them to settle into their own burroughs and not force them to speak English. Why all of a sudden is there a big rush to be English? Please honestly answer these questions, because I am no historian and may be just making shit up.

[Rumble In the Jungle]

why don't you just go to a spanish bengals boards and argue your case, there is tons of them!

[BengalsCat]

[quote name='sois' post='495838' date='Jun 5 2007, 01:10 PM']Here is another situation: Do you really expect millions of hispanics, who's families have been on this land since before it was even a country, to give up their language just because the border moved around them? Also, the country that took over this land is build on embracing other cultures and ideas. Why on earth didn't the founding fathers of America fix this in the first place when people were immigrating originally? Why didn't they say, no to European immigrants and send them back across the ocean when they didn't speak English? It seems that back then, it was ok to let Czechs/Poles/Greeks/Italians into America and allow them to settle into their own burroughs and not force them to speak English. Why all of a sudden is there a big rush to be English? Please honestly answer these questions, because I am no historian and may be just making shit up.[/quote]

Yep thats it. We are not arguing there right to speak spanish. We are arguing the fact that they need to be able to speak english as well. Since u know just about everything in america is in english... INcluding our school boosk, Laws, Road signs, Health pamphlits, Instructions. U know the imporant shit...

[Go Tory Go!]

I agree with a reasonable fine for the crime of illegal immigration, accompanied by mandatory enrollment in a naturalization program, for those who are already here. Hell, use the fines to strengthen the border down there.

English is already the "National Language," there are those wanting to make it the "Official Language." Changing its status would, for one, not allow government-supported translators in hospitals, which I think is rubbish. If you were in another country and had a little boo boo, wouldn't you appreciate having someone there who spoke your language? Perhaps this is a difficult analogy because English is so widely spoken. Also, I think people exaggerate the number of actual citizens who don't speak English, which is what matters on the ballots. But seriously, does it really hurt you if someone feels more comfortable reading a ballot in their native language?

[Actium]

[quote name='sois' post='495838' date='Jun 5 2007, 12:10 PM']Here is another situation: Do you really expect millions of hispanics, who's families have been on this land since before it was even a country, to give up their language just because the border moved around them? Also, the country that took over this land is build on embracing other cultures and ideas. Why on earth didn't the founding fathers of America fix this in the first place when people were immigrating originally? Why didn't they say, no to European immigrants and send them back across the ocean when they didn't speak English? It seems that back then, it was ok to let Czechs/Poles/Greeks/Italians into America and allow them to settle into their own burroughs and not force them to speak English. Why all of a sudden is there a big rush to be English? Please honestly answer these questions, because I am no historian and may be just making shit up.[/quote]

Why did the Indians of the Aztec, Maya, and Inca start speaking Spanish instead of keeping their native tongues? Because the political reality changed around them. They became part of the Spanish Empire, and in order to function needed to learn to speak the language of the conquerors.

There are still some who speak these languages. That's fine, but the ones who dont' speak Spanish can't really function in larger scale society and are limited to small regions.

There has always been a natural resistance to immigration. People come over in large groups and settle together (out of protection and economic interdependence), and if they don't assimilate become a frightening specter to those who have assimilated. For that reason, to allow them to assimilate, there has to be a limit on how many can come over. With illegal immigration, you can't have that. Groups that wave the Mexican flag and clamor for the "Reconquista" are understandably going to put off a lot of folks.

There is probably a bigger rush to English as official now that the government does so much more for the citizens than it did way back when. It is much more involved in daily life than it was during the time of the Framers.

[|Bengal Migration|]

[quote name='sois' post='495838' date='Jun 5 2007, 06:10 PM']Here is another situation: Do you really expect millions of hispanics, who's families have been on this land since before it was even a country, to give up their language just because the border moved around them? Also, the country that took over this land is build on embracing other cultures and ideas. Why on earth didn't the founding fathers of America fix this in the first place when people were immigrating originally? Why didn't they say, no to European immigrants and send them back across the ocean when they didn't speak English? It seems that back then, it was ok to let Czechs/Poles/Greeks/Italians into America and allow them to settle into their own burroughs and not force them to speak English. Why all of a sudden is there a big rush to be English? Please honestly answer these questions, because I am no historian and may be just making shit up.[/quote]
Certainly, there were neighborhoods where folks of a certain nationality tended to move to. There's a little Italy or a Chinatown in plenty of cities across the country. And surely, have historically been folks in those neighborhoods, for whom English was a second language. But historically, the folks who immigrated to the US came here to be a part of it, not just a part of a neighborhood in it, if you catch my drift.

My grandfather still speaks Italian, but you better damn well believe that he and his family WANTED to learn to speak English also. Without being able to speak the native tongue, their employment opportunities would be VERY limited. But, they came here to live here, and be a part of this nation, to assimilate, to participate. Like it or not, that means learning to speak English as a part of that. By all means, folks can still be bi-lingual, and speak any language they would like in addition to English. But learning to speak English is part of becoming an American. And if these folks don't want to become American, then I say buh-bye.

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='sois' post='495838' date='Jun 5 2007, 12:10 PM']Here is another situation: [b]Do you really expect millions of hispanics, who's families have been on this land since before it was even a country, to give up their language just because the border moved around them? [/b] Also, the country that took over this land is build on embracing other cultures and ideas. Why on earth didn't the founding fathers of America fix this in the first place when people were immigrating originally? Why didn't they say, no to European immigrants and send them back across the ocean when they didn't speak English? It seems that back then, it was ok to let Czechs/Poles/Greeks/Italians into America and allow them to settle into their own burroughs and not force them to speak English. Why all of a sudden is there a big rush to be English? Please honestly answer these questions, because I am no historian and may be just making shit up.[/quote]






What a fucking load of shit.

There isn`t anyone occupying the land that was there when the borders were
moved. The war happened about 160 years ago !!!!!!
The U.S. and Mexico had a war, the U.S. won, Mexico accepted
money for the land. It became U.S. territory.

Plus you act like Spanish was the language that was ALWAYS spoken
in Mexico . . .

Anyway, if I move to another country, I don`t expect everyone to cater to me and
speak my language ! That`s a big problem that a lot of people have
with the Illegals.They don`t want to assimiate.
They want all of the benefits of being an American, but they
don`t want to actually be an American. That`s the difference
between those that came to Ellis Island and those we`re speaking
of now.

[Go Tory Go!]

I'm curious... this is directed to those of you who object to groups of people living in the US who "refuse," as you put it, to learn or speak English, won't assimilate, and thus live separated from what we might recognize as 'our society:'


What do you think about the enclaves of Hasidic Jews living in [i]our [/i]country in blatant refusal to comply with our language and manner of dress!

[Actium]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='495850' date='Jun 5 2007, 12:34 PM']I'm curious... this is directed to those of you who object to groups of people living in the US who "refuse," as you put it, to learn or speak English, won't assimilate, and thus live separated from what we might recognize as 'our society:'
What do you think about the enclaves of Hasidic Jews living in [i]our [/i]country in blatant refusal to comply with our language and manner of dress! [/quote]

Yes, everytime I call a company on the phone I get the "Press 1 for English, Numbero Dos pro espanol, and 3 for Hebrew."

And those Amish need to be stopped.

The difference is, the Jews aren't sneaking into the country over a river and then applying for jobs that pay under the table so there's no taxes, and then they don't go use emergency medical services and have the government pay because they are indigent, etc.

[Guest CincyInDC]

[quote name='sois' post='495838' date='Jun 5 2007, 01:10 PM']Here is another situation: Do you really expect millions of hispanics, who's families have been on this land since before it was even a country, [b]to give up their language[/b] just because the border moved around them? Also, the country that took over this land is build on embracing other cultures and ideas. Why on earth didn't the founding fathers of America fix this in the first place when people were immigrating originally? Why didn't they say, no to European immigrants and send them back across the ocean when they didn't speak English? It seems that back then, it was ok to let Czechs/Poles/Greeks/Italians into America and allow them to settle into their own burroughs and not force them to speak English. Why all of a sudden is there a big rush to be English? Please honestly answer these questions, because I am no historian and may be just making shit up.[/quote]

Hell yeah, they should give up their language. Not only should they learn English, we should stamp out any remaining pockets of Spanish. OK, I'm kidding. No one is arguing for Spanish to be eliminated--at least, I don't think anyone is.

[sois]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='495848' date='Jun 5 2007, 12:31 PM']
What a fucking load of shit.

There isn`t anyone occupying the land that was there when the borders were
moved. The war happened about 160 years ago !!!!!![/quote]

I guess you've never heard of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Florida, Texas... etc.
My family has been in the same spot in Texas for as far back as I can trace my lineage.

PS. Mexico isn't the US. Mexico isn't a melting pot. USA is. US welcomes others. Mexico does not. Mexico has an official language and religion. Totally different than the USA.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='creechnasty' post='495835' date='Jun 5 2007, 01:09 PM'][b]This thread brought to you in part by:[/b]
[center][img]http://www.rosettastone.com/images/box_home.gif[/img][/center][/quote]

[Guest CincyInDC]

Seriously though, having people illegally in this country isn't a good thing. Some illegal totaled my car a year ago and guess what? The fucker fled. Had he not been illegal he probably would have manned up and my insurance company wouldn't have gotten the shaft.

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='495850' date='Jun 5 2007, 12:34 PM']I'm curious... this is directed to those of you who object to groups of people living in the US who "refuse," as you put it, to learn or speak English, won't assimilate, and thus live separated from what we might recognize as 'our society:'
What do you think about the enclaves of Hasidic Jews living in [i]our [/i]country in blatant refusal to comply with our language and manner of dress! [/quote]

How they, or anyone else dress, makes no difference to me.
But I think no differently of them, than I do of any other PERSON
that wants all the benefits of being an American, but doesn`t
actually want to be an American . . .

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='CincyInDC' post='495861' date='Jun 5 2007, 01:43 PM']Seriously though, having people illegally in this country isn't a good thing. Some illegal totaled my car a year ago and guess what? The fucker fled. Had he not been illegal he probably would have manned up and my insurance company wouldn't have gotten the shaft.[/quote]

I forgot to add that: ...pay a fine, mandatory naturalization program [b]including intensive motor vehicle training[/b]. This has happened to numerous people I know.

(Actually, one involved a latina pleading to not call the police and producing $800 cash, which my friend accepted, only to have some loco guy show up at his place later demanding money back. Never do that.)

Here's something I don't understand: I've heard that illegals are more diligent in paying taxes than actual citizens, since they don't want to create a stir, and instead just don't want to be noticed ( , literally for once). My question is, how do they actually pay this tax? Do they just send in money in a blank envelope?

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='sois' post='495858' date='Jun 5 2007, 12:41 PM']I guess you've never heard of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Florida, Texas... etc.
My family has been in the same spot in Texas for as far back as I can trace my lineage.[/quote]


I guess you think all the people that live in those States NOW, were there when
the borders were moved ?

Plus, I`m pretty sure Hawaii had their own language. But guess what ?
When I went there, no one tried to speak to me in Hawiian. They spoke
to me in English.

[quote]PS. Mexico isn't the US. Mexico isn't a melting pot. USA is. US welcomes others. Mexico does not. Mexico has an official language and religion. Totally different than the USA.[/quote]

Yes, the U.S. is a Melting Pot. That means people that WANT to become
Americans learned to speak the Language that the Government speaks,
prints on their money and the majority of the citizens speak.

Why print shit up in Spanish and not print it up in Chinese, Japanese, French, Italian,
German, Arabic, and every other language in the World ? Why just cater to Spanish
speaking people ? Oh, because they`re the one`s that are the majority of the Illegals
that don`t want to assimilate, and actually become Americans . . .

[sois]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='495862' date='Jun 5 2007, 12:46 PM']How they, or anyone else dress, makes no difference to me.
But I think no differently of them, than I do of any other PERSON
that wants all the benefits of being an American, but doesn`t
actually want to be an American . . .[/quote]

What the f does this even mean? Be American? Should everyone eat apple pie and go to baseball games? Should we all wear Trent Green haircuts and drive minivans?

So how a person dresses makes no difference to you, but the language they speak offends you greatly?

[sois]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='495866' date='Jun 5 2007, 12:55 PM']Plus, I`m pretty sure Hawaii had their own language. But guess what ?
When I went there, no one tried to speak to me in Hawiian. They spoke
to me in English.[/quote]

People speak to tourists in the language that can help them acquire the most $$$$. If a person didn't care about your $$$ I doubt they would try to strike up a conversation with a good ole' boy like yourself.

[Actium]

This issue should illustrate why too much multi-culturalism is fatal to a society.

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='Actium' post='495876' date='Jun 5 2007, 02:06 PM']This issue should illustrate why too much multi-culturalism is fatal to a society.[/quote]

...why, specifically, is that then? Just because it upsets the oldschoolers of the world? (notice, not in caps)

[Guest oldschooler]

[quote name='sois' post='495870' date='Jun 5 2007, 01:03 PM']What the f does this even mean? Be American? Should everyone eat apple pie and go to baseball games? Should we all wear Trent Green haircuts and drive minivans?

So how a person dresses makes no difference to you, but the language they speak offends you greatly?[/quote]


Being American means to pay taxes, speak the language the Government uses,
and assimialte.

Where did I say I was offended ?


[quote name='sois' post='495873' date='Jun 5 2007, 01:05 PM']People speak to tourists in the language that can help them acquire the most $$$$. If a person didn't care about your $$$ I doubt they would try to strike up a conversation with a good ole' boy like yourself.[/quote]


Oh really ? How come they weren`t speaking Japanese to all of the Japanese torurist
then, asshole ? The Japanese tourtist were actually speaking English !!!!


Yeeeeeeeeeee - hawwwwwwwwwwww !!!

[Actium]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='495878' date='Jun 5 2007, 01:12 PM']...why, specifically, is that then? Just because it upsets the oldschoolers of the world? (notice, not in caps)[/quote]

Because when you start saying that all cultures are equal you can't make one the official or dominant culture, and everything goes all wishy-washy.

[sois]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='495880' date='Jun 5 2007, 01:15 PM']Being American means to pay taxes, speak the language the Government uses,
and assimialte.[/quote]

I guess I can never properly convey my feelings on an internet message board so I might as well give up trying. It just hits kind of close to home that many of you feel a lot of my family members are un-American, depite them being born here, working their asses off, paying taxes, contributing to society... etc because they prefer speaking Spanish to English. I guess because they use one more than the other makes them pieces of shit to most of you guys. Oh well, can't force people to be nice and let people do their own thing.

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='Actium' post='495884' date='Jun 5 2007, 02:28 PM']Because when you start saying that all cultures are equal you can't make one the official or dominant culture, and everything goes all wishy-washy.[/quote]

I hear you, I just don't know what the big problem with wishy-washy is.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='sois' post='495885' date='Jun 5 2007, 02:29 PM']I guess I can never properly convey my feelings on an internet message board so I might as well give up trying. It just hits kind of close to home that many of you feel a lot of my family members are un-American, depite them being born here, working their asses off, paying taxes, contributing to society... etc because they prefer speaking Spanish to English. I guess because they use one more than the other makes them pieces of shit to most of you guys. Oh well, can't force people to be nice and let people do their own thing.[/quote]


I have no issue with those who want to speak their native tounge amongst themselves, but when out in society I would hope they know the language of the country enough to function amongst the rest of us. I dont think thats so much to ask.

i do agree with you about the notion of assimalation though, its a pretty absurd one. Like you said "what is an american?"