Jews, Christians, Strange Alliance

[|Bunghole|]

[i]MELBOURNE, Florida (CNN) -- Sondra Oster Baras is an Orthodox Jew doing an unorthodox job.

"If you had asked me 10 years ago what I would be doing with my life, I don't think I would have told you I'd be in church," she said.

Baras stumps for money from evangelical Christians to support Jewish settlements in the occupied territories -- land she calls biblical Israel.

A recent stop finds her in Melbourne, Florida, visiting Pastor Gary Christofaro at his First Assembly Church of God.

Christofaro and his flock take their Jewish roots so seriously that on Friday nights they observe the Jewish Sabbath with Hebrew prayers.

This is not just religious ritual. They support Israel -- which to them includes Jewish settlements on the occupied West Bank. Church members tour settlements with Baras and have donated more than a $100,000 to support them.

"If it wasn't for what the Jews brought to Christianity, there would be no Christianity," Christofaro said. "There is a promise to those who bless Israel to be blessed. Those who curse it will be cursed."

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs estimates 85 million evangelicals believe God tells them to support Israel -- more than six times the world's Jewish population.

One of the most successful Jewish fundraisers, Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein, raised $39 million last year from Christian Zionists to fund human services and humanitarian work in Israel and the settlements.

Christian Zionists often converge on Washington by the thousands to lobby members of Congress in support of Israel.

Sen. Joseph Lieberman, I-Connecticut, was among the speakers at last month's convention of Christians United for Israel.

"There are a lot more Christian Zionists in America than Jewish Zionists," the former Democratic vice presidential candidate told the group. "The support of Christian Zionists today is critical to Israel's security and strength and to America's security and strength." Watch behind-the-scenes with CNN's Christiane Amanpour for the making of the TV special "God's Warriors"

Back in church, Baras told the congregation: "We need to stand together so that our governments will believe that the land of Israel, the entire land of Israel, belongs to the Jewish people."

Baras said God called her to this work. She left her high-powered, high-paid job as a Wall Street lawyer and moved to Israel in 1984.

"I was never fully American," she explained. "I was Jewish." Judaism was not only her religion but also her nationality.

"We learned how to read Hebrew before we learned how to read English," she said.

Her parents, who narrowly escaped the Holocaust, sent her to Zionist summer camps that championed the Jewish homeland.

"My parents felt very safe in America ... but there was always a part of them that said there needs to be an Israel in the event that we have another Hitler. Put it all together and I couldn't help but be a Zionist."

Baras moved her family to Karnei Shomron, a settlement deep inside the West Bank.

"Just by building my house ... I was strengthening the Jewish presence here in Samaria," she said, referring to a biblical name for the northern part of the West Bank.

In 2002, a Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up inside a pizza parlor in her neighborhood, killing three children. She said she fought back by encouraging support from evangelical Christians in America.

"If we give any part of that land to the Arabs, we are looking at terrorism," she told a church audience.

Christofaro's Florida congregation responded with money -- all while singing a prayer for peace in perfect Hebrew.

Their money builds parks, child care centers and music therapy programs -- projects that make Jewish life in the settlements more comfortable. And more permanent.

"If you don't live somewhere, if you don't take possession of it, it is not yours," Baras said.

Some people say Jews and evangelical Christians make strange bedfellows, given historical anti-Semitism.

"Because of this doctrine of a Jew being a Christ-killer ... so much hatred and anti-Semitism has been propagated throughout the Earth," Christofaro said.

Now such historic anti-Semitism has given way to an urgent support of Israel among some evangelicals, many of whom believe that when Jews live in all of the Holy Land -- what they call Greater Israel -- only then will Christ return and true believers be raptured up to heaven.

"It is a controversial issue here in Israel as to whether we should be partnering with the Christians in any way," Baras said.

It's controversial in part because in the judgment day scenario embraced by some evangelicals, Jews who don't convert to Christianity burn in hell. But Baras said she isn't worried.

"I know that I'm not going to burn in hell because I didn't accept Jesus, because I don't believe Jesus is the Messiah," she said. "So how could I possibly be threatened?"


Baras concedes the alliance between God's Jewish and Christian warriors may seem odd to some people. But if Baras is anything, she's practical.

"Israel has many enemies," she said. "We have to take advantage of every single one of our friends." E-mail to a friend [/i]

[b]I don't know what to make of this but to say that by not mentioning the Palestinians and their plight in this is burying your head in the sand and ignoring the well-being of an entire people for the sake of your own self-righteousness.[/b]

[|BlackJesus|]

[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]I am not surprised by any of this.

This is the same kind of alliance that was documented in the film I posted recently by Max Blumenthal (Jew) about the Rabid Christian Zionists who support Israel now ... so that they can all get to heaven later (after the Jews who don't bow before Jesus are cast to hell of course).

If I was Jewish I would be uneasy with such a partnership ... and would not see it in the Jewish people's best interest ... but I guess their leadership has made the calculation that it is a beneficial alliance for the time being. However ... an alliance today ... will always want something in return tomorrow.

Wait till these Christian Zionists try to move to Israel and are denied .... or wait till they find out it is illegal to openly proselytize the message of Christ within Israel. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/23.gif[/img]


Also - yes the Palestinians are very relevant to this issue. The West Bank will be the future Palestinian State (if there ever is one) - and Israel will have no chance at peace without creating one. A one state solution with 5 million Jews and 5 Million Arab living in One Israel will never work - and that is what will happen if Israel refuses to accept a Palestinian state. The only option then will be more Apartheid ... or mass deportation (the irony of the Jews mass deporting people should not be lost on anyone).


I am curious what some of our resident Heb's think of this alliance .... Chicago, CJ ???[/b][/size][/font]

[Lawman]

[quote]"I was never fully American," she explained. "I was Jewish." [b]Judaism was not only her religion but also her nationality[/b].[/quote]

[i]Judaism is a Nation [/i] [i]If she said Israeli, that's one thing, but claiming Judaism as a Nationality is confusing or telling.[/i]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='531174' date='Aug 21 2007, 09:34 AM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]I am not surprised by any of this.

This is the same kind of alliance that was documented in the film I posted recently by Max Blumenthal (Jew) about the Rabid Christian Zionists who support Israel now ... so that they can all get to heaven later (after the Jews who don't bow before Jesus are cast to hell of course).

If I was Jewish I would be uneasy with such a partnership ... and would not see it in the Jewish people's best interest ... but I guess their leadership has made the calculation that it is a beneficial alliance for the time being. However ... an alliance today ... will always want something in return tomorrow.

Wait till these Christian Zionists try to move to Israel and are denied .... or wait till they find out it is illegal to openly proselytize the message of Christ within Israel. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/23.gif[/img]
Also - yes the Palestinians are very relevant to this issue. The West Bank will be the future Palestinian State (if there ever is one) - and Israel will have no chance at peace without creating one. A one state solution with 5 million Jews and 5 Million Arab living in One Israel will never work - and that is what will happen if Israel refuses to accept a Palestinian state. The only option then will be more Apartheid ... or mass deportation (the irony of the Jews mass deporting people should not be lost on anyone).
I am curious what some of our resident Heb's think of this alliance .... Chicago, CJ ???[/b][/size][/font][/quote]
Good post. The glaring omission of mention of a palestinian state while lobbying for infesting the West Bank with settlements is what unnerves me so much....I really, REALLY want to believe that both sides can come to an agreement and co-exist in two legally definable, seperate countries.
Anything has to be better than the way it is now.

[Lawman]

[quote]The West Bank will be the future Palestinian State (if there ever is one)[/quote]

[i]Refer to UN Resolution 242; it did not specify that Israel had to return "all" of the land.
This was done deliberatley to maintain a security buffer. Israel has returned 91% of the land it
captured in the 1967 war. Stop right there.

A country captures land during war, but only to return it afterwards is a rarity throughout History.
Yet, Isreal keeps baring the brunt of being the bad guy (I do hold the notion that it is plausible they were not to return as a nation;as per the True Torah Jews).

The dispute with Syria is over the Golan Heights; Israel has no obligation under 242 to return the Heights.

Palestine is not even mentioned in 242. In 1968, the PLO rejected 242. In 1993, Arafat accepted the terms
when he signed the Decleration of Principles.[/i]

[ChicagoBengal]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='531174' date='Aug 21 2007, 10:34 AM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]I am not surprised by any of this.

This is the same kind of alliance that was documented in the film I posted recently by Max Blumenthal (Jew) about the Rabid Christian Zionists who support Israel now ... so that they can all get to heaven later (after the Jews who don't bow before Jesus are cast to hell of course).

If I was Jewish I would be uneasy with such a partnership ... and would not see it in the Jewish people's best interest ... but I guess their leadership has made the calculation that it is a beneficial alliance for the time being. However ... an alliance today ... will always want something in return tomorrow.

Wait till these Christian Zionists try to move to Israel and are denied .... or wait till they find out it is illegal to openly proselytize the message of Christ within Israel. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/23.gif[/img]
Also - yes the Palestinians are very relevant to this issue. The West Bank will be the future Palestinian State (if there ever is one) - and Israel will have no chance at peace without creating one. A one state solution with 5 million Jews and 5 Million Arab living in One Israel will never work - and that is what will happen if Israel refuses to accept a Palestinian state. The only option then will be more Apartheid ... or mass deportation (the irony of the Jews mass deporting people should not be lost on anyone).
I am curious what some of our resident Heb's think of this alliance .... Chicago, CJ ???[/b][/size][/font][/quote]
I actually think this quote from Bung sums up my feelings quite well. [b]"I don't know what to make of this but to say that by not mentioning the Palestinians and their plight in this is burying your head in the sand and ignoring the well-being of an entire people for the sake of your own self-righteousness."[/b]

Again, keep in mind that I'm not particularly deeply rooted in my "religious" backround. I flunked Hebrew for Christ's sake (excuse the pun). In other words, the common denominator of religious upbringing (which mine wasn't), no matter how strict, means far less to me than the basic human rights issues that are so glaring in the case of the Isreali / Palestinian situation.


Now if you'll excuse me, I have to check to see how my mutual funds are performing. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/3.gif[/img]

[|BlackJesus|]

[center][size=4][quote name='ChicagoBengal' post='531704' date='Aug 22 2007, 12:53 PM']Now if you'll excuse me, I have to check to see how my mutual funds are performing. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img][/quote][/size]




[/center]

[ChicagoBengal]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='531713' date='Aug 22 2007, 12:12 PM'][center][size=4][/size]


[/center][/quote]
I hadn't seen that one before.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='531713' date='Aug 22 2007, 11:12 AM'][center][size=4][/size]


[/center][/quote]
That is absolutely hysterical!

[Lawman]

[quote][b]BlackJesus
The only option then will be more Apartheid ... or mass deportation ([b]the irony of the Jews mass deporting people should not be lost on anyone). [/b][/quote][/b]

[color="#000080"]“There is still one other question arising out of the disaster of nations which remains unsolved to this day, and whose profound tragedy, only a Jew can comprehend. This is the African question. Just call to mind all those terrible episodes of the slave trade, of human beings who, merely because they were black, were stolen like cattle, taken prisoner, captured and sold. Their children grew up in strange lands, the objects of contempt and hostility because their complexions were different. I am not ashamed to say, though I may expose myself to ridicule for saying so, that once I have witnessed the redemption of the -Jews, my people, I wish also to assist in the redemption of the Africans.”

— Theodor Herzl[/color]

[color="#000080"][b]In the Fifth Section [/b]of the Decleration of the Establishment of Israel

- Israel is to be a state of development for the benefit of all its inhabitants;

- Perhaps most importantly, Israel is to be a state based on the fundamentals of freedom, justice and peace, a state in which all the inhabitants will enjoy equality of social and political rights, along with freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture.

[b]The sixth section [/b]of the Declaration includes appeals for the cooperation of both external and internal factors. The internal factor – "the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel" – is called upon to preserve peace and participate in the building of the state. Full and equal citizenship – implying, first and foremost, due representation in all state institutions – is conferred on them. The phrasing of the appeal makes it clear that it is addressed to an Arab people. The significance is that although the state is Jewish, it is inhabited by two peoples. It should be stressed here that the term "Palestinian" had not yet become prevalent at that time[/color]

[quote]ChicagoBengal,
In other words, the common denominator of religious upbringing (which mine wasn't), no matter how strict, means far less to me than the basic human rights issues that are so glaring in the case of the Isreali / Palestinian situation.[/quote]

[i]From my research, I have found that Israels current population totals approximatelly 7 Million with 20% being non-Jews (roughly 1.4 million).

- Arabs have equal voting rights; including women.
- In 2005, Arabs held NINE seats in the 120 seat Knesset.
- Israeli Arabs have held various Government positions; including Supreme Court Justice.
- Arabic like Hebrew; is an Official Language of Israel.
- At the time of Israel's founding there was one High School; now there are hundreds.
- In 2002, the Israeli Supreme Court also ruled that the government cannot allocate land based on religion or ethnicity, [b]and may not prevent Arab citizens from living wherever they choose[/b].
-Israeli law prohibits discrimination in employment.
- 92% of the land in Israel is owned by the government; the other 8% is privately owned. The Arab Waqf (the Muslim charitable endowment), for example, owns land that is for the express use and benefit of Muslim Arabs. All Arab citizens of Israel are eligible to lease government land.

Now here is the interesting part; the distinction between Jewish citizens and Arab citizens is that the Jewish citizens is required to perform military service (Arabs may and have volounteered military service). What causes economic social disparity is that military veterans recieve benefits notavailable to non- veterans).

However there is an advantage for the Arab Israeli when the Jewish Israeli must server military time; job openings occur and currently industries like construction and trucking is dominated by Arab Israeli's.[/i]

[color="#000080"]“The Israeli regime is not apartheid. It is a unique case of democracy.” — South African Interior Minister Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi.[/color]

[i]In 1934, David Ben-Gurion told Palestinian nationalist Musa Alami: [/i]

[color="#000080"]"We do not want to create a situation like that which exists in South Africa, where the whites are the owners and rulers, and the blacks are the workers. If we do not do all kinds of work, easy and hard, skilled and unskilled, if we become merely landlords, then this will not be our homeland"[/color]


[i]The following piece was was presented in 2005, since Arafat has died, look at what he has been replaced with.[/i]

[b]Today, within Israel, Jews are a majority, but the Arab minority are full citizens who enjoy equal rights and are represented in all the branches of government. Arabs are represented in the Knesset, and have served in the Cabinet, high-level foreign ministry posts (e.g., Ambassador to Finland) and on the Supreme Court. Under apartheid, black South Africans could not vote and were not citizens of the country in which they formed the overwhelming majority of the population. Laws dictated where they could live, work and travel. And, in South Africa, the government killed blacks who protested against its policies. By contrast, Israel allows freedom of movement, assembly and speech. Some of the government’s harshest critics are Israeli Arabs who are members of the Knesset.

The situation of Palestinians in the territories is different. The security requirements of the nation, and a violent insurrection in the territories, forced Israel to impose restrictions on Arab residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip that are not necessary inside Israel’s pre-1967 borders. The Palestinians in the territories, typically, dispute Israel’s right to exist whereas blacks did not seek the destruction of South Africa, only the apartheid regime.

If Israel were to give Palestinians full citizenship, it would mean the territories had been annexed. No Israeli government has been prepared to take that step. Instead, through negotiations, Israel agreed to give the Palestinians increasing authority over their own affairs. It is likely that a final settlement will allow most Palestinians to become citizens of their own state. The principal impediment to Palestinian independence is not Israeli policy, it is the unwillingness of the Palestinian leadership to give up terrorism and agree to live in peace beside Israel. [/b]

[i]Anyone have something different [/i]

[|BlackJesus|]

[quote name='Lawman' post='531864' date='Aug 22 2007, 05:22 PM'][i]Anyone have something different [/i] [/quote]


[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]


[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Wow ... that is some cultural laughing gas you are huffing ... nice work [/b][/size][/font]

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='531980' date='Aug 22 2007, 10:02 PM'][img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]
[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Wow ... that is some cultural laughing gas you are huffing ... nice work [/b][/size][/font][/quote]


You beat me to it, I was on the verge of posting something similar to this:

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]

I was then going to continue with......

But the funniest part was

[quote][i]Anyone have something different? [/i][/quote]

[Lawman]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='532030' date='Aug 22 2007, 10:21 PM']You beat me to it, I was on the verge of posting something similar to this:

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]

I was then going to continue with......

But the funniest part was[/quote]

[b]Guess not!!![/b]

[|BlackJesus|]

[quote name='Lawman' post='532161' date='Aug 23 2007, 05:32 AM'][b]Guess not!!![/b][/quote]





[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]You really are a rich piece of work lawman ... thanks for the smiles you often bring me. The caricature of your copy and pasted nonsense really has given you an endearing quality.


I would tell you to correct your statement for accurate context by highlighting it and pressing delete and starting over ... but I figure it may be less time consuming and less futile just to tell you that you have it all figured out and whadda ya know ... you cracked the puzzle. [/b][/size][/font]

[Jamie_B]

[Lawman]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='532250' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:54 AM']
[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]You really are a rich piece of work lawman ... thanks for the smiles you often bring me. The caricature of your copy and pasted nonsense really has given you an endearing quality.
I would tell you to correct your statement for accurate context by highlighting it and pressing delete and starting over ... but I figure it may be less time consuming and less futile just to tell you that you have it all figured out and whadda ya know ... you cracked the puzzle. [/b][/size][/font][/quote]


[i]Helloooooooooo, anyone there [/i]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//28.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//28.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//28.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//28.gif[/img]

[|BlackJesus|]

[quote name='Lawman' post='532483' date='Aug 23 2007, 05:06 PM'][i]Helloooooooooo, anyone there [/i][/quote]


[color="#000080"][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Q: If you saw a giraffe walking down the street sideways, how many pancakes would it take to cover a Christmas tree?

A: Twenty-four, because bananas don't have bones.[/b][/size][/font][/color]

[Jamie_B]

Where is your research comming from Lawman?

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='532487' date='Aug 23 2007, 06:48 PM']Where is your research comming from Lawman?[/quote]


My guess would be here -->

I'm just kidding lawman, we all know you dont pull it out of your ass........you get it from CARM.......which stinks just the same though.

[|BlackJesus|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='532487' date='Aug 23 2007, 05:18 PM']Where is your research comming from Lawman?[/quote]


[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]One whole section of his copy and paste job (the bold part) came from the [url="http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/HumanrightsIsrael.html"]Jewish Virtual Library[/url]


Although since they don't have a horse in this race ... I think it was a good choice. [/b][/size][/font]

[Lawman]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='532498' date='Aug 23 2007, 05:40 PM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]One whole section of his copy and paste job (the bold part) came from the [url="http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/HumanrightsIsrael.html"]Jewish Virtual Library[/url]
Although since they don't have a horse in this race ... I think it was a good choice. [/b][/size][/font][/quote]

[i]Yes it was, Everythinhg italicized I wrote with the information researched. What I took verbatim was bolded.

Does this have to be explained to you every single time, of course not, it's an out to avoid the obvious"

I am asking is what I have presented correct or incorrect.[/i]

[i]I am leaning toward the former because of the overwhelming emperical data presented where
conversely we see claims that Israel is divided into an Apartheid state like how South Africa once was.[/i]

[i](Upon researching the afore mentioned information), I think the Apartheid statement deserves a[/i] [i]and is merely a propaganda piece.[/i]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='532498' date='Aug 23 2007, 05:40 PM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]One whole section of his copy and paste job (the bold part) came from the [url="http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/HumanrightsIsrael.html"][color="#FF0000"]Jewish Virtual Library[/color][/url]
Although since they don't have a horse in this race ... I think it was a good choice. [/b][/size][/font][/quote]


I had that feeling.

[Lawman]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='532487' date='Aug 23 2007, 05:18 PM']Where is your research comming from Lawman?[/quote]

[i]Jewish Virtual Library[/i]

[i]I provided you a link once before when you were working on a piece for one of your classes.[/i]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Lawman' post='532519' date='Aug 23 2007, 06:32 PM'][i]Jewish Virtual Library[/i]

[i]I provided you a link once before when you were working on a piece forone of your classes.[/i][/quote]


Yeah I remember it.

I had a hard time taking it in as I wanted to keep bias out of it.


Tell me something, what in your opinion is the difference between a occupied territiory of gaza and the west bank and the Bantustans of South Africia?

[Lawman]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='532518' date='Aug 23 2007, 06:31 PM']I had that feeling.[/quote]

[i]Woud you dismiss the site [/i]

[i]There is alot of information that they present that can be readily researched for accuracy.[/i]

[i]Now, before we head down the path of distraction from the original thread; I caught CNN's with Christine
Amanpour "Gods Warriors". There was a name she brought up [/i][url="http://www.cfr.org/publication/9178/"]Kahane[/url].

[i]I think the actions of this group is what some use to represent and broadbrush as the whole Israeli positon.[/i]