Lawman Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote].......it's even written it will happen.[/quote] [i]Where?[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote]I believe that God will return to Earth someday, but to try to predicate such an arrival by the actions of men is ludicrous.[/quote] Does this mean that the bucket of "Extra Crispy" I ordered might be cold by the time it gets here? [quote]IT's NOT THE ISRAELI's THAT ARE THE OBSTRUCTIONIST IN THE MIDDLE EAST PEACE PROCESS[/quote] Even the most hard-core Likudnik will tell you that they are obstructing the peace process. Why? Because they don't want a Palestinian state, or as that lovable teddy-bear of a man, Ariel Sharon, once said, "The Palestinians already have a state. It's called Jordan." And that is not even accounting for the views of those crazy settlers, who make Likudniks seem like flower children. Oh, Lawman, on all this bolding/italicising stuff: Why not make a better attempt at clarifying what is what by using the conventions available to you on the board? Use the quote tag for the small stuff and clear demarcate the longer stuff. Don't intersperse comments throughout, instead wait until the end to state your views. That way many of us would be less prone to whack you with the plagiarization stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='532640' date='Aug 23 2007, 09:18 PM'][i]No Bung, it is deeper than that on several levels and yes I will agree with you that religonis one of them. The other is political.[/i] [i]The Muslim Waqf has responsibility for the mosques on the [url="http://www.templemount.org/"]Temple Mount[/url].[/i][/quote] I agree with you that one is religous, another political, but you havent addressed the humanity side of it, you didnt answer my question as to if you think Tutu was wrong about the plight of the palastinians. Do you believe this to be propaganda? If not then you must understand that when you treat people in a manner as described, that they will have their breaking points and eventually pick up arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='IKOTA' post='532637' date='Aug 23 2007, 09:17 PM']Thats a given in any conflict...outside forces.....intelligence agenies etc...[/quote] [i]Then we are in agreement, what's to argue?[/i] [i]Remove the outside forces and see what happens. Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas etc...[/i] [i]Allow only the Palestinians to remain.[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='532645' date='Aug 23 2007, 09:24 PM']I agree with you that one is religous, another political, but you havent addressed the humanity side of it, you didnt answer my question as to if you think Tutu was wrong about the plight of the palastinians. Do you believe this to be propaganda? If not then you must understand that when you treat people in a manner as described, that they will have their breaking points and eventually pick up arms.[/quote] [i]Jamie_B, That is not even close to the reality as what has transpired over the years there. Araft did not want peace; it was not profitable. The question you should be posing; Where is Arafats Millions ( maybe Billions) of dollars earmarked for the Palestinians and there plight?[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 uh....isnt Hamas palastinan? ..... Elected even? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='532652' date='Aug 23 2007, 09:29 PM'][i]Jamie_B, That is not even close to the reality as what has transpired over the years there. Araft did not want peace; it was not profitable. The question you should be posing; Where is Arafats Millions ( maybe Billions) of dollars earmarked for the Palestinians and there plight?[/i][/quote] So what the hell is Tutu talking about then? What the hell is the international committee of the red cross talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='532646' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:55 PM'][i]Then we are in agreement, what's to argue?[/i] [i]Remove the outside forces and see what happens. Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas etc...[/i] [i]Allow only the Palestinians to remain.[/i][/quote] You always see things as this or that, never a combition....that is a mistake IMO. You don't think Mossad, Shin Beit have anything to do with this conflict in addition to the ones you mentioned? You would be kidding yourself if you didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Homer_Rice' post='532644' date='Aug 23 2007, 07:22 PM']Does this mean that the bucket of "Extra Crispy" I ordered might be cold by the time it gets here? Even the most hard-core Likudnik will tell you that they are obstructing the peace process. Why? Because they don't want a Palestinian state, or as that lovable teddy-bear of a man, Ariel Sharon, once said, "The Palestinians already have a state. It's called Jordan." And that is not even accounting for the views of those crazy settlers, who make Likudniks seem like flower children. Oh, Lawman, on all this bolding/italicising stuff: Why not make a better attempt at clarifying what is what by using the conventions available to you on the board? Use the quote tag for the small stuff and clear demarcate the longer stuff. Don't intersperse comments throughout, instead wait until the end to state your views. That way many of us would be less prone to whack you with the plagiarization stick.[/quote] I realize that you're agnostic and pray that your eternal life will be filled with extra crispiness.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote]Even the most hard-core Likudnik will tell you that they are obstructing the peace process. Why? Because they don't want a Palestinian state, or as that lovable teddy-bear of a man, Ariel Sharon, once said, "The Palestinians already have a state. It's called Jordan." And that is not even accounting for the views of those crazy settlers, who make Likudniks seem like flower children.[/quote] [i]Homer, Did you see my post on Kahane[/i] [i]I would agree, that there are right-wingers in Israel that are obstructing the peace process like the Kahane group. Theyare actually labeled as terrorist and should not be grouped in with the whole populace of Israel. From what I have read, Israel has given the most concession to achieve peace, yet still gets beat-up when hedoes decide to stand up for itself, like it did against Transjordan (Now simply Jordan thanks to Israel) which you mentioned.[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='532654' date='Aug 23 2007, 11:01 PM']So what the hell is Tutu talking about then? What the hell is the international committee of the red cross talking about?[/quote] Are you really holding out hope these answers will get answered in earnest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='532653' date='Aug 23 2007, 07:29 PM']uh....isnt Hamas palastinan? ..... Elected even?[/quote] I will say that even some Palestinians will admit that electing Hamas was a big mistake. Not like Arafat's party was any better though. Hamas is a horrible orginazation that tries to position itself as a "means for the people" when in fact they are anything but. I make NO distinction between Hamas and Hezbollah, other than the fact that Hezbollah has a more serious miltary backer (Iran). That being said, it's hard to blame certain groups for their hardline stance against the West, but still...something has to give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Bunghole' post='532661' date='Aug 23 2007, 11:10 PM']I will say that even some Palestinians will admit that electing Hamas was a big mistake. Not like Arafat's party was any better though. Hamas is a horrible orginazation that tries to position itself as a "means for the people" when in fact they are anything but. I make NO distinction between Hamas and Hezbollah, other than the fact that Hezbollah has a more serious miltary backer (Iran). That being said, it's hard to blame certain groups for their hardline stance against the West, but still...something has to give.[/quote] Hamas does alot of social work and helps the community to help it further itself...........then they go and blow some shit up and throw water over their positive efforts in the public eye.......that's their problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [i]International committee of the red cross [/i] From Wiki: [color="#000080"]When granted only partial access, the ICRC takes what it can get and keeps discreetly lobbying for greater access. In the era of apartheid South Africa, it was granted access to prisoners like Nelson Mandela serving sentences, but not to those under interrogation and awaiting trial. After his release, Mandela publicly praised the Red Cross. [b]Some governments use the ICRC as a tool to promote their own ends.[/b] The presence of respectable aid organizations can make weak regimes appear more legitimate. Fiona Terry contends that "this is particularly true of ICRC, whose mandate, reputation, and discretion imbue its presence with a particularly affirming quality." Recognizing this power, the ICRC can pressure weak governments to change their behavior by threatening to withdraw. As mentioned above, Nelson Mandela acknowledged that the ICRC compelled better treatment of prisoners and had leverage over his South African captors because "avoiding international condemnation was the authorities' main goal." [/color] "enough said" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Like I said Jaime, don't expect an answer to any of the questions you asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] You really think the ICRC is the only souce that has proclaimed human rights abuses? This is well documented stuff my man. Was Tutu a liar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='532527' date='Aug 23 2007, 06:46 PM']Let me ask this then. Would you dismiss this? [url="http://mondediplo.com/2003/11/04apartheid"]http://mondediplo.com/2003/11/04apartheid[/url] Here are her credientials. [url="http://www.pol-sci.umb.edu/faculty/farsakh.html"]http://www.pol-sci.umb.edu/faculty/farsakh.html[/url][/quote] [i]I kept wondering, what the hell is he talking about Tutu for? Where is that coming from. [/i] [i]Sorry, I totally missed this post. Went right past it[/i] [i]Seriously now, simply it's the man's perception. Not to say he was right or wrong, what is his agenda or does he even have one[/i] [i]Did he traverse across the whole of Palestine and see everything; like what you hear about Iraq is not happening everywhere in that country?[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote]Was Tutu a liar?[/quote] [i]Why are you trying to put words in my mouth?[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='532678' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:05 PM'] [i]I kept wondering, what the hell is he talking about Tutu for? Where is that coming from. [/i] [i]Sorry, I totally missed this post. Went right past it[/i] [i]Seriously now, simply it's the man's perception. Not to say he was right or wrong, what is his agenda or does he even have one[/i] [i]Did he traverse across the whole of Palestine and see everything; like what you hear about Iraq is not happening everywhere in that country?[/i][/quote] I would say his agenda, is of peace and human rights, I mean he did win a nobel prize for it in '84. Others would and have said, he is anti-semetic, I'd ask what their agenda is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='532681' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:08 PM'][i]Why are you trying to put words in my mouth?[/i][/quote] Im not, im trying to understand your position on the human rights abuses that tutu describes, it may be possible that im not understanding you but he paints a picture that you seem to be saying isnt the case, or at least not the case throughout the area. Then Im getting to the point that those things are a part of this as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote]I realize that you're agnostic and pray that your eternal life will be filled with extra crispiness....[/quote] Hehe. Good one! [quote name='Lawman' post='532659' date='Aug 23 2007, 09:38 PM'][i]Homer, Did you see my post on Kahane[/i] [i]I would agree, that there are right-wingers in Israel that are obstructing the peace process like the Kahane group. Theyare actually labeled as terrorist and should not be grouped in with the whole populace of Israel. From what I have read, Israel has given the most concession to achieve peace, yet still gets beat-up when hedoes decide to stand up for itself, like it did against Transjordan (Now simply Jordan thanks to Israel) which you mentioned.[/i][/quote] Meir Kahane was an American who eventually ended up in Israel stirring the pot. I had the dubious pleasure of running into a few of his terrorist cohorts way back in the late 70s/early 80s. My point is that the obstructionism is much more mainstream. Not that I'm defending Arafat here (or Menachem Begin for that matter.) But I do know that a clear path to peace requires an honest effort on both sides and by that criteria, Israel hasn't been honest since the murder of Rabin. What you really need to do is get to the roots of Jabotinsky and his intellectual heritage in Israel. Nobody likes to say it, so I will: are there Israeli proto-fascists? You betcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|BlackJesus| Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Lawman is wrong with such repetition ... that it almost becomes too time consuming to correct all of his nonsense. [/b][/size][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote]What you really need to do is get to the roots of Jabotinsky and his intellectual heritage in Israel. Nobody likes to say it, so I will: are there Israeli proto-fascists? You betcha.[/quote] [i].... and I would not disagree with you and was attempting to point this fact out. [/i] [i]As is the case in any democracy, there will be fringe elements that will obstruct attempts by their respective elected officials to govern in a mannerism which benefit the whole of society. These fringeelementsdon't give a shit about "the big picture" only their special interest.[/i] [b]From Wiki:[/b] [color="#000080"]On March 22, 2007 several Code Pink protestors were arrested outside the office of Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi after announcing their intent to take over the office. Code Pink was protesting that the majority Democratic party had not stopped war funding.[/color] [i]These nitwits believe they were the sole responsibility for democrats taking over the Congress last November; therefore their agenda shouldrecieve top priority. They are freaking clueless and may of actually hurt Pelosi anti-war efforts.[/i] I brought up Kahane because I think that the people mentioned at the begging of thread: [quote]Sondra Oster Baras is an Orthodox Jew doing an unorthodox job.[/quote] [i]may be affiliated with them in some manner. And figure you would have some insight and you did [/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='BlackJesus' post='532765' date='Aug 24 2007, 02:11 AM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Lawman is wrong with such repetition ... that it almost becomes too time consuming to correct all of his nonsense. [/b][/size][/font][/quote] [i]How about this:[/i] [color="#000000"]Today, within Israel, Jews are a majority, but the Arab minority are full citizens who enjoy equal rights and are represented in all the branches of government. Arabs are represented in the Knesset, and have served in the Cabinet, high-level foreign ministry posts (e.g., Ambassador to Finland) and on the Supreme Court. Under apartheid, black South Africans could not vote and were not citizens of the country in which they formed the overwhelming majority of the population. Laws dictated where they could live, work and travel. And, in South Africa, the government killed blacks who protested against its policies. By contrast, Israel allows freedom of movement, assembly and speech. Some of the government’s harshest critics are Israeli Arabs who are members of the Knesset. [/color] [i]I had asked, does anyone have something different? This was posed as a question seeking an answer. If what I have posted above is untrue, disect it and point out the fallacies.[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='532682' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:08 PM']I would say his agenda, is of peace and human rights, I mean he did win a nobel prize for it in '84. Others would and have said, he is anti-semetic, I'd ask what their agenda is?[/quote] Jamie_B, [i]As did these [/i][url="http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1994/index.html"]three[/url]. [i]I am saying, Bung, you, I and others want peace also.However sincere he is in his endeavors, I don't know what level of understanding with the situation Tutu has. Yes, there are terrible conditions that exist and what we are discussing is 'The Why"? When I posted that Israel was not the problem; I knew technically I was wrong, their mere existence is the problem. Yes, also there are groups within Israel that contribute to the conflict like the Kahane group ( which Christian Amanpour pointed to in her piece), butI am focused on the World players. As for you girl, yes she has credentials. I did a little digging before I went to bed, but I wanted to wait until I could spend a little more time on it. But, there are things she has left out. She is a research affiliate at the Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard University as well as a research fellow at the Trans Arab Research Institute TARI. Dr. Elaine C. Hagopian was the Founder of TARI. She now sits on a commission sponsored by Not In Our Name. Here is the site: [/i] [url="http://www.bushcommission.org/?q=node/21"]http://www.bushcommission.org/?q=node/21[/url] [i]Here Jamie_B, I love you man and I offer this in good faith.[/i] [url="http://jewishworldreview.com/0806/prager080106.php3"]http://jewishworldreview.com/0806/prager080106.php3[/url] [i]Time to move on and 'defend the faith'. Was that an album cover or something[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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