Cold Hard Football Predictions

[oftt4]

You still mad at me about the interchangable fantasy thing Jaime?

Just to defend myself yet again...I said they were interchangable IN MY FANTASY league...as of now Carson has 112 points, Ben has 110. That is all I meant. I said they were interchangable in my league, and I start either one of them based on their matchup that week. It had nothing to do with who I think is better.

This week, for instance, I am not starting Ben...but I AM starting Palmer. See? No need to get upset.

[ColdGinAgain]

[quote name='oftt4' post='583297' date='Nov 2 2007, 08:19 AM']You still mad at me about the interchangable fantasy thing Jaime?

Just to defend myself yet again...I said they were interchangable IN MY FANTASY league...as of now Carson has 112 points, Ben has 110. That is all I meant. I said they were interchangable in my league, and I start either one of them based on their matchup that week. It had nothing to do with who I think is better.

This week, for instance, I am not starting Ben...but I AM starting Palmer. See? No need to get upset.[/quote]

Bet you wish you started Ben this week now.

So much for Ben not being able to carry the team without a rushing attack huh?

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='ColdGinAgain' post='587321' date='Nov 5 2007, 11:38 PM']Bet you wish you started Ben this week now.

So much for Ben not being able to carry the team without a rushing attack huh?[/quote]
Not really, that's still mostly true, but that's mostly true for any QB that actually has a decent RB to complement them. The Bengals have a decnt QB and shit for defense.
Peyton Manning never had it so good.....despite his early struggles....

[oftt4]

[quote name='ColdGinAgain' post='587321' date='Nov 5 2007, 11:38 PM']Bet you wish you started Ben this week now.[/quote]

You aint kidding.

I won the week handily anyway, but I would have kicked myself in the ass if those 12 points mattered.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='582738' date='Nov 1 2007, 09:12 AM']It must feel strange to have the Cleveland Browns nipping at your heels for a change![/quote]

The nipping is over, and the Brownies have once again been put in their place. That was a scary one though.

[oftt4]

Here is another article to peruse...

[url="http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_1856_Icy_Issues%3A_Big_Ben_elite_by_any_measure.html"]http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Artic...ny_measure.html[/url]

Icy Issue: How come nobody talks about Ben Roethlisberger as an elite NFL quarterback?
Icier Response: Apparently people just can't believe it's possible to be so good so young.

The pissburgh signal caller stormed onto the National Football League stage in 2004, leading the Steelers to an improbable 15-1 season in his rookie campaign. For an encore in 2005, he merely became the youngest quarterback to lead his team to a Super Bowl title. After a series of well-publicized off-the-field and health issues that led to pissburgh’s 8-8 campaign in 2006, Big Ben is back and better than ever here in 2007.

With a 110.2 passer rating (a figure virtually unheard of just 20 years ago), Roethlisberger is second only to New England’s Tom Brady (131.8). And, with 22 TD passes, he’s third behind only Brady (33) and Dallas media-darling QB Tony Romo (23).

You wouldn't know it if you measured the two quarterbacks by hype and headlines, but Roethlisberger is actually more productive than Romo if we look at TDs per attempt. Romo has needed 292 pass attempts to reach his 23 TDs (1 TD every 12.7 attempts). Roethlisberger has reached 22 TDs with just 242 pass attempts (1 TD every 11.0 attempts).

Roethlisberger also has a phenomenal 92.2 career passer rating – the same rating as Brady and just 2.0 points behind Peyton Manning, who’s widely perceived as a statistical juggernaut and has had the benefit of playing most of his games indoors. Given the same advantage, it’s reasonable to assume that Roethlisberger’s career passer rating would be well ahead of Manning’s right now.

The bottom line is that Roethlisberger is an elite quarterback by any measure but national media acclaim. And at just 25 years old, history tells us that Roethlisberger’s best years are still ahead of him.

[BigDawg]

[quote name='Brew Crew Grrl' post='540058' date='Sep 4 2007, 01:48 PM']I can show ya some websites too!
[url="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/specials/preview/2007/scouting.report/"]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/...couting.report/[/url]

AFC North
1 BENGALS 10-6
2 RAVENS 10-6*
3 STEELERS 8-8
4 BROWNS 5-11

Besides we had injuries to the O-Line, no real backup RB, no Chris Henry, no defense last year and still came up 8-8![/quote]
Kind of looks backwards as of now huh?

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BigDawg' post='601314' date='Nov 29 2007, 09:26 PM']Kind of looks backwards as of now huh?[/quote]
The Browns are pretenders. I will stake everything that I am on that statement. The are going NOWHERE in the playoffs, if they get there.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='601325' date='Nov 29 2007, 10:28 PM']The Browns are pretenders. I will stake everything that I am on that statement. The are going NOWHERE in the playoffs, if they get there.[/quote]

I agree. Very good offense, very bad defense. Sounds familiar somehow...

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='oftt4' post='602075' date='Dec 1 2007, 02:27 PM']I agree. Very good offense, very bad defense. Sounds familiar somehow...[/quote]
Sadly, touche. Touche indeed.

[oftt4]

I want to relive some quotes from this thread and see how they hold up....


[quote name='Bunghole' post='540033' date='Sep 4 2007, 01:15 PM']I simply cannot take anyone seriously that is going to place the Browns ahead of any team in our division, let alone the bengals.[/quote]

Well....it happened...can you take them seriously now?

[quote name='TheChosenOne' post='540046' date='Sep 4 2007, 01:38 PM']as long as Carson Palmer is healthy the Bengals will not have a losing season.[/quote]

Well....it's probably going to happen...Cleveland is your only obstacle to an 8-8 season...can you beat them?

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='540088' date='Sep 4 2007, 02:27 PM']Steelers fans dont like us as a competitve team, they want the old bengals that were an easy 2 wins a year for them, they cant swallow that they have to fight to win games against us now.[/quote]

24-13, 24-10...not much of a fight.

[quote name='Brew Crew Grrl' post='540091' date='Sep 4 2007, 02:35 PM']Once again explain to me how we don't win at least 8 games??[/quote]

Well, Cleveland is on the horizon.

[quote name='Brew Crew Grrl' post='540537' date='Sep 5 2007, 12:38 PM']BTW.... say we've got a piss poor D all you want, but the voters of ESPN thought differently putting roughly 8 or 9 AFC teams below us. We get that D fully functional and the Steeler's jerseys won't be the only thing that looks as though its been urinated on [/quote]

29th in scoring...29th in yardage...that qualifies as a piss poor defense.

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='540557' date='Sep 5 2007, 01:40 PM']By the sound of your arguments it sounds as though you're more certain of 12 Steeler wins than you are of 9 Bengal wins. Is that correct? If that is the case - what bet did you have with Jamie?[/quote]

Well, one of those things is still possible...one isnt. I'll let you figure out which.

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='543236' date='Sep 10 2007, 12:53 PM']You would think by now Id know better, because the simple admission that Palmer is a top 3 eliete QB isnt going to come from his keyboard and we all know why. (and its not because he isnt)[/quote]

Palmer...15th in passer rating, 11th in comp%, 13th in YPA, 7th in TD's, 2nd in INT's...yeah, that screams ELITE to me.

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='544707' date='Sep 11 2007, 09:28 AM']Palmer is eliete because he can shread good defences, not just average or bad ones. If Ben wants to be eliete (which I dont see happening) he needs to carry the team on his shoulders and not rely on the running game or the defence for more than just those two playoff games.[/quote]

Ben...4th in passer rating, 6th in comp%, 3rd in YPA, 3rd in TD's, 15th in INT's...seems like Ben is doing his part. As for carrying a team on his shoulders....that would require the Steelers to suck at everything else...not gonna happen.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='oftt4' post='604552' date='Dec 4 2007, 02:22 PM']I want to relive some quotes from this thread and see how they hold up....

Well, one of those things is still possible...one isnt. I'll let you figure out which.[/quote]
Here was your response to that statement I made:
[quote]Did I say ANYTHING about 12 wins? The only thing I "touted" the Steelers for was a winning season...and I said they have a good chance at the PO's.[/quote]

So, you backpedaled at the time and now come back to talk shit about it... classic.

It takes a big man to come back and stick his chest out after the fact... especially when he was backpedaling off it at the time it was being discussed.

Something tells me we'd hear a lot less from you if this were last year...


I wouldn't hate the steelers so much if is wasn't for their fans...

[oftt4]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='604563' date='Dec 4 2007, 02:46 PM']Here was your response to that statement I made:


So, you backpedaled at the time and now come back to talk shit about it... classic.

It takes a big man to come back and stick his chest out after the fact... especially when he was backpedaling off it at the time it was being discussed.

Something tells me we'd hear a lot less from you if this were last year...


I wouldn't hate the steelers so much if is wasn't for their fans...[/quote]

How can I "backpedal" when I never even said it in the first place? You said 12 wins, I never did.

Even today, I still didnt say that they will get 12 wins, just that it is possible. For the record, I dont think that they will. I was meerly pointing out the fact that what you said was so incredibly improbable...is already half way done.

Settle down spanky.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='oftt4' post='604577' date='Dec 4 2007, 03:17 PM']How can I "backpedal" when I never even said it in the first place? You said 12 wins, I never did.

Even today, I still didnt say that they will get 12 wins, just that it is possible. For the record, I dont think that they will. I was meerly pointing out the fact that what you said was so incredibly improbable...is already half way done.

[b]Settle down spanky.[/b][/quote]
Not fired up...

There was nothing in my post that should have come across like I was.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt4' post='604552' date='Dec 4 2007, 02:22 PM']I want to relive some quotes from this thread and see how they hold up....




Well....it happened...can you take them seriously now?



Well....it's probably going to happen...Cleveland is your only obstacle to an 8-8 season...can you beat them?



24-13, 24-10...not much of a fight.



Well, Cleveland is on the horizon.



29th in scoring...29th in yardage...that qualifies as a piss poor defense.



Well, one of those things is still possible...one isnt. I'll let you figure out which.



Palmer...15th in passer rating, 11th in comp%, 13th in YPA, 7th in TD's, 2nd in INT's...yeah, that screams ELITE to me.



Ben...4th in passer rating, 6th in comp%, 3rd in YPA, 3rd in TD's, 15th in INT's...seems like Ben is doing his part. As for carrying a team on his shoulders....that would require the Steelers to suck at everything else...not gonna happen.[/quote]


Brett Farvre is a future HOF QB, just two years ago he had more INTs than TDs, Palmer has never had that EVER, and this is without any semblance of a D or running game this year. Even in his 1st year he had the same INTs as he did TDs. Can Ben claim he never threw more INTs than TDs?

I know I know .... injury.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='605025' date='Dec 5 2007, 05:56 PM']Brett Farvre is a future HOF QB, just two years ago he had more INTs than TDs, Palmer has never had that EVER, and this is without any semblance of a D or running game this year. Even in his 1st year he had the same INTs as he did TDs. Can Ben claim he never threw more INTs than TDs?

I know I know .... injury. [/quote]


So because Palmer didnt throw 1 more INT in 2004, he is superior. Great argument.

How about this one...who has thrown more interceptions overall?

Or how about this one...who has won more games?

I know I know...defense.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='oftt4' post='605279' date='Dec 6 2007, 01:07 PM']So because Palmer didnt throw 1 more INT in 2004, he is superior. Great argument.

How about this one...[b]who has thrown more interceptions overall?[/b]

Or how about this one...[b]who has won more games?[/b]

I know I know...defense. [/quote]
How about this - who's thrown more INT's in relation to number of attempts? I mean, I can claim I'm better than both since I've not thrown any... Just a pure # is stupid, you've got to frame it against the number of times the guy is putting the ball in the air.

I'll help you.

Palmer : 1923 with 58 INT's, 99 TD's An INT every 33.2 attempts, a TD every 19.4 attempts

Roeth: 1352 with 54 INT's, 77 TD's An INT every 25 attempts, a TD every 17.6 attempts

Wins and Losses - you can roll your eyes all you want, but those do have something to do with a defense... you as a pissburgh fan should know that. Which qb has had a greater impact on wins and losses for their franchise taking into account historical numbers?

Looking back 6 years prior to each QB showing up look at the number of wins for each franchise and then compare it to the number of wins with them there. Who's made a bigger impact in number of games won?

Bengals w/o Palmer: 98-3, 99-4, 00-4, 01-6, 02-2, 03-8 averages out to 4.5 wins per season
w/ Palmer: 04-8, 05-11, 06-8 averages 9 wins per season

He's had a 4.5 game per season impact from the prior 6 seasons

Steelers w/o Roethlisberger: 98-7, 99-6, 00-9, 01-13, 02-10, 03-6 averages 8.5 wins per season
w/ Roethlisberger: 04-15, 05-11, 06-8 averages 11 wins per season

He's had a 2.5 game per season impact from the prior 6 seasons

And, you could take it back further than that if you'd like as I just arbitrarily used that number. But, it'd probably only get better for Palmer as the 90's were our worst years.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='605320' date='Dec 6 2007, 03:08 PM']How about this - who's thrown more INT's in relation to number of attempts? I mean, I can claim I'm better than both since I've not thrown any... Just a pure # is stupid, you've got to frame it against the number of times the guy is putting the ball in the air.

I'll help you.

Palmer : 1923 with 58 INT's, 99 TD's An INT every 33.2 attempts, a TD every 19.4 attempts

Roeth: 1352 with 54 INT's, 77 TD's An INT every 25 attempts, a TD every 17.6 attempts

Wins and Losses - you can roll your eyes all you want, but those do have something to do with a defense... you as a pissburgh fan should know that. Which qb has had a greater impact on wins and losses for their franchise taking into account historical numbers?

Looking back 6 years prior to each QB showing up look at the number of wins for each franchise and then compare it to the number of wins with them there. Who's made a bigger impact in number of games won?

Bengals w/o Palmer: 98-3, 99-4, 00-4, 01-6, 02-2, 03-8 averages out to 4.5 wins per season
w/ Palmer: 04-8, 05-11, 06-8 averages 9 wins per season

He's had a 4.5 game per season impact from the prior 6 seasons

Steelers w/o Roethlisberger: 98-7, 99-6, 00-9, 01-13, 02-10, 03-6 averages 8.5 wins per season
w/ Roethlisberger: 04-15, 05-11, 06-8 averages 11 wins per season

He's had a 2.5 game per season impact from the prior 6 seasons

And, you could take it back further than that if you'd like as I just arbitrarily used that number. But, it'd probably only get better for Palmer as the 90's were our worst years.[/quote]


Dont make it too tough for him.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='605320' date='Dec 6 2007, 03:08 PM']How about this - who's thrown more INT's in relation to number of attempts? I mean, I can claim I'm better than both since I've not thrown any... Just a pure # is stupid, you've got to frame it against the number of times the guy is putting the ball in the air.

I'll help you.

Palmer : 1923 with 58 INT's, 99 TD's An INT every 33.2 attempts, a TD every 19.4 attempts

Roeth: 1352 with 54 INT's, 77 TD's An INT every 25 attempts, a TD every 17.6 attempts

Wins and Losses - you can roll your eyes all you want, but those do have something to do with a defense... you as a pissburgh fan should know that. Which qb has had a greater impact on wins and losses for their franchise taking into account historical numbers?

Looking back 6 years prior to each QB showing up look at the number of wins for each franchise and then compare it to the number of wins with them there. Who's made a bigger impact in number of games won?

Bengals w/o Palmer: 98-3, 99-4, 00-4, 01-6, 02-2, 03-8 averages out to 4.5 wins per season
w/ Palmer: 04-8, 05-11, 06-8 averages 9 wins per season

He's had a 4.5 game per season impact from the prior 6 seasons

Steelers w/o Roethlisberger: 98-7, 99-6, 00-9, 01-13, 02-10, 03-6 averages 8.5 wins per season
w/ Roethlisberger: 04-15, 05-11, 06-8 averages 11 wins per season

He's had a 2.5 game per season impact from the prior 6 seasons

And, you could take it back further than that if you'd like as I just arbitrarily used that number. But, it'd probably only get better for Palmer as the 90's were our worst years.[/quote]


Ok, I'll play.

First of all, you cant compare the team with Palmer (or Ben) on it to the teams in 98-02...that is just retarded. You are implying that they were the only changes to the team, which is just wrong. That is like saying the Colts are better with Peyton Manning than with Jeff George, but it has nothing to do with Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, etc...

The only comparison you can make is from 03 since the supporting cast would be largely the same as what these two QB's entered the league with. Understand?

Ok, now look at the numbers. The Bengals went from 8-8 to 8-8, 11-5, 8-8, and probably 6-10. Wow. That is a great improvement. (Oh, and a little point that Bengals fans seem to forget...Palmer was 6-7 as a starter in 2004...Kitna was 2-1).

The Steelers went from 6-10 to 15-1, 11-5, 8-8, and probably 11-5.


There, now that we have disproven the myth that the team wins more because of Palmer, lets address your AVERAGES.

Career Passer rating, not may favorite stat...but it is an average
Ben 91.5, Carson 90.4

Career Yards per attempt, the most telling stat of a QB's efficiency
Ben 8.2, Carson 7.3

And lets not forget, that had Ben not had a bad year last season, his AVERAGES would be light years ahead of Palmer. Whether you want to believe that a motorcycle accident, appendicitis, and a concussion had anything to do with it really doesnt matter....just look at what is going on this year, that should answer any questions you have.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='oftt4' post='605534' date='Dec 7 2007, 08:03 AM']Ok, I'll play.

First of all, you cant compare the team with Palmer (or Ben) on it to the teams in 98-02...that is just retarded. You are implying that they were the only changes to the team, which is just wrong. That is like saying the Colts are better with Peyton Manning than with Jeff George, but it has nothing to do with Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, etc...

The only comparison you can make is from 03 since the supporting cast would be largely the same as what these two QB's entered the league with. Understand?

Ok, now look at the numbers. The Bengals went from 8-8 to 8-8, 11-5, 8-8, and probably 6-10. Wow. That is a great improvement. (Oh, and a little point that Bengals fans seem to forget...Palmer was 6-7 as a starter in 2004...Kitna was 2-1).

The Steelers went from 6-10 to 15-1, 11-5, 8-8, and probably 11-5.


There, now that we have disproven the myth that the team wins more because of Palmer, lets address your AVERAGES.

Career Passer rating, not may favorite stat...but it is an average
Ben 91.5, Carson 90.4

Career Yards per attempt, the most telling stat of a QB's efficiency
Ben 8.2, Carson 7.3

And lets not forget, that had Ben not had a bad year last season, his AVERAGES would be light years ahead of Palmer. Whether you want to believe that a motorcycle accident, appendicitis, and a concussion had anything to do with it really doesnt matter....just look at what is going on this year, that should answer any questions you have.[/quote]
Wait, wait, wait...

If I remember correctly you were the one that wanted to bring in, and I quote, [quote]How about this one...who has thrown more interceptions overall?"[/quote] actual interceptions thrown. All I was presenting was the fact that you need to frame that number against the number of times that qb puts the ball in the air. If you just look at # of INT's thrown it is meaningless. You've got to say something along the lines of "qb x has an interception every x number of times he throws the ball". Don't you agree that has more meaning than saying "qb x has thrown x number of interceptions in his career." Without knowing how long qb x has played that number could be really good or really bad. If he's thrown 50 and has played 2 years, he's terrible. If he's thrown 50 and played 10 years then he's HOF... so, don't look at actual numbers - give it qualifying reference.

Do you understand? Or, can I draw you a picture?

As for wins against franchise history... funny how you'd pull the only "decent" year out of the last 15 to use as a reference point and just cast aside the other below average records as meaningless. Based on that, we'll just agree to disagree.

But to think that Palmer didn't come into a franchise with a mentality of losing and make it better, significantly so is just asinine.

Roethlisberger did the same. He came to a franchise used to winning and made them better as well.

I was just pointing out that in comparison Palmer has had a greater impact, on his franchise, than Roethlisberger has on his.

And, with you ploy on averages... I wasn't just pulling averages out my ass. I was generating them in relation to the exact argument you were presenting. I didn't say one was better or worse than the other, I just simply said one has thrown this many with this many attempts, the other this many with this many attempts. Those are meaningful averages... Discard them as you see fit.

And, you yourself said you don't like the passer rating but just threw it in there? Oh, because that is one of the few "stats" he's actually got a better number than Palmer! That's classic. Roethlisberger is a winner there is no doubt about that.

And, this last bit of garbage...
[quote]Career Yards per attempt, the most telling stat of a QB's efficiency
Ben 8.2, Carson 7.3[/quote] Oh, so Ben is "more efficient" than Tom Brady's 7.2 YPA and Peyton Mannings 7.7 YPA??? Give me a break - he has a little better than 1/2 the number of throws that these other guys' have... the higher the number of attempts statistically the lower the YPA is going to go.

Over their careers, Roethlisberger is averaging ~ 330 attempts a season, Palmer ~ 490, Brady ~ 500, and Manning ~ 600.

Where is Palmer if he's on pissburgh's team from the time he came to Cincinnati, and where is Roethlisberger if he's in Cincy from the time he went to pissburgh? I'd venture Palmer / pissburgh would be better, and Roethlisberger / Cincy would be worse-off. But, that is my opinion.

But, again, we're going to disagree so whatever.

[ColdGinAgain]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='605539' date='Dec 7 2007, 09:46 AM']I was just pointing out that in comparison Palmer has had a greater impact, on his franchise, than Roethlisberger has on his.[/quote]

there's a trophy at Heinz Field that says otherwise. Yeah his actual Super Bowl was subar.... but Ben carried the load in the playoff games before that. We had some damn good teams in the past falter in the playoffs... usually because of QB play. Ben changed that in 05. A Super Bowl win is a pretty big impact.

Palmer got you 3 more wins and a playoff berth. I know I know... the injury. If Carson hadn't gotten injured it MAY have been a different game. Maybe he would have inspired the defense to not give up 34 points.


The fact is, I think it's two early in BOTH of their careers to say who's better. Both have solid numbers so far. Both will be among the league's best for the coming years.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt4' post='605534' date='Dec 7 2007, 08:03 AM']Ok, I'll play.

First of all, you cant compare the team with Palmer (or Ben) on it to the teams in 98-02...that is just retarded. You are implying that they were the only changes to the team, which is just wrong. That is like saying the Colts are better with Peyton Manning than with Jeff George, but it has nothing to do with Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, etc...

The only comparison you can make is [color="#FF0000"]from 03 since the supporting cast would be largely the same [/color] as what these two QB's entered the league with. Understand?

Ok, now look at the numbers. The Bengals went from 8-8 to 8-8, 11-5, 8-8, and probably 6-10. Wow. That is a great improvement. (Oh, and a little point that Bengals fans seem to forget...Palmer was 6-7 as a starter in 2004...Kitna was 2-1).

The Steelers went from 6-10 to 15-1, 11-5, 8-8, and probably 11-5.


There, now that we have disproven the myth that the team wins more because of Palmer, lets address your AVERAGES.

Career Passer rating, not may favorite stat...but it is an average
Ben 91.5, Carson 90.4

Career Yards per attempt, the most telling stat of a QB's efficiency
Ben 8.2, Carson 7.3

And lets not forget, that had Ben not had a bad year last season, his AVERAGES would be light years ahead of Palmer. Whether you want to believe that a motorcycle accident, appendicitis, and a concussion had anything to do with it really doesnt matter....just look at what is going on this year, that should answer any questions you have.[/quote]


I dont think so. Chad and Rudi (who was a starter midway through 03) as WR and RB yes, Willie and Levi as T's yes. (TJ wasnt a starter until 2004) But since 03 we have replaced the entire intirrior line (bobbie williams came on in '04) and one G twice (from Stienbech to Whitworth) and have a new RT due to willie not playing very many snaps this year. (due to injury thats a fair statement) the #3 WR from Washington to Henry. Now a number of those replacements were natural progression type things due to FA (stienbach to whitworth), some to age or Injury (Warrick to TJ), and some to malcontent (Dillion to Rudi), so if you want to say that the O has had it's MAIN GUYS since '03, Ill give you a slight pass because Rudi and TJ were on the team even if they werent starters.

Now on D since Marvin's arrival we have 2 GUYS who have been here since '03, Justin Smith and John Thortan. We have replaced the MLB due to injury, FA, or suspention EVERY YEAR (from losing spikes, to putting Webster in to lose him to injury, to Landon Johnson, then to Odell, then to Brooks) We have replaced the SAM backer almost every year (from kevin hardy, to david pollack, to rashad jeanty), and this year replaced the WILL (from Brian Simmons to Landon Johnson). We have repleced the DT next to thortan every year but one, (from tony williams, to Bryan Robinson, to Sam Adams, to Dometa Peko), we have replaced the DE on the oppisite side of Justin almost every year (from duane clemmons to bryan robinson to robert geathers), we have replaced the entire 2ndary a few positions a few times; CB (from Hawkins to Oneil, from James to Jospeh, from Oneil to Hall, from Ratliff to Oniel) S; (from Roman to Williams, from Becket to Herring, from Herring to Jackson). AND THESE ARE JUST THE STARTERS, I didnt even mention guys lost for the season that had to be replaced last minute like Herring being replaced by Ohalete, or Williams by Kaesviharn, ect.. (thats football, ill accept that, in season). We have had little to no continuity of "core guys" on the D since Marvin has been here due to injury or age. Age I can accept replacing guys due to FA, losing guys like Pollack or Thruman (due to suspention) and having to constantly replace guys from year to year, and not because of FA mind you, will hurt a growing team. This is the biggest problem this D has had.

Now hopefully we can keep guys healthy to the extent that they can play in more games than they dont from year to year, and we dont have to keep replacing them. The 2ndary is now young with the exception of Jackson, the LB unit needs a SAM backer at best (assuming Brooks is 100% healthy next year and Odell is back and in football shape) AT WORST it needs the SAM and WILL replaced (assuming odell isnt back and in football shape). The Dline will have to replace Justin this year as well. So we will have a few new faces again next year. Now if were talking FA I can accept that, that's part of football. However when were talking about having to replace even the guys that were supposed to be your "core guys" every year or close to every year due to injury your going to have problems, I dont care who you are even the "mighty steelers" would stuggle under that scnerio.

But this notion that we've had our "core guys" here since '03 is simply not the case, and is REALLY not the case on the D side of the ball.

Next time do a little research to know what the hell your talking about, here start here: [url="http://www.bengals.com/team/alumni.asp"]http://www.bengals.com/team/alumni.asp[/url]

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='ColdGinAgain' post='605542' date='Dec 7 2007, 09:06 AM']there's a trophy at Heinz Field that says otherwise. Yeah his actual Super Bowl was subar.... but Ben carried the load in the playoff games before that. We had some damn good teams in the past falter in the playoffs... usually because of QB play. Ben changed that in 05. A Super Bowl win is a pretty big impact.

Palmer got you 3 more wins and a playoff berth. I know I know... the injury. If Carson hadn't gotten injured it MAY have been a different game. Maybe he would have inspired the defense to not give up 34 points.


The fact is, I think it's two early in BOTH of their careers to say who's better. Both have solid numbers so far. Both will be among the league's best for the coming years.[/quote]
I won't disagree with that. His super bowl was below subpar - it was the worst ever. But, a win is a win, no matter how you get it.

And, I wasn't saying Ben was a bad quarterback. All I was doing was framing numbers to give them some reference. Oftt4 throws numbers / stats out without qualifying those numbers. To say "who's thrown more INT's" is dumb as hell. Who's thrown more TD's in that case? You have to put it against the number of times the ball goes in the air. In regards to those numbers Palmer throws 8 more passes for every INT he throws... the flip-side is that Palmer also throws about 2 more passes for every TD he throws too.

As for giving up 34 points, if Palmer's in the game that means our offense is on the field more and our defense is resting on the sideline. We'll never know what would have happened in that game but pissburgh doesn't score 34 if Palmer plays that game. And, if they do, then Cincy's scored 41... we'd just beaten you guy's at your place 1 month prior, if I remember correctly. But, we're getting off task.

I will simply argue that Palmer has had a greater impact on the Bengals than Roethlisberger has on the Steelers. The Steelers were perennial playoff teams prior to him being there... The Bengals were perennial 3-13, 4-12 teams prior to Palmer. Those two facts can't be denied.

But, good enough.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='605544' date='Dec 7 2007, 09:15 AM']I dont think so. Chad and Rudi (who was a starter midway through 03) as WR and RB yes, Willie and Levi as T's yes. (TJ wasnt a starter until 2004) But since 03 we have replaced the entire intirrior line (bobbie williams came on in '04) and one G twice (from Stienbech to Whitworth) and have a new RT due to willie not playing very many snaps this year. (due to injury thats a fair statement) the #3 WR from Washington to Henry. Now a number of those replacements were natural progression type things due to FA (stienbach to whitworth), some to age or Injury (Warrick to TJ), and some to malcontent (Dillion to Rudi), so if you want to say that the O has had it's MAIN GUYS since '03, Ill give you a slight pass because Rudi and TJ were on the team even if they werent starters.

Now on D since Marvin's arrival we have 2 GUYS who have been here since '03, Justin Smith and John Thortan. We have replaced the MLB due to injury, FA, or suspention EVERY YEAR (from losing spikes, to putting Webster in to lose him to injury, to Landon Johnson, then to Odell, then to Brooks) We have replaced the SAM backer almost every year (from kevin hardy, to david pollack, to rashad jeanty), and this year replaced the WILL (from Brian Simmons to Landon Johnson). We have repleced the DT next to thortan every year but one, (from tony williams, to Bryan Robinson, to Sam Adams, to Dometa Peko), we have replaced the DE on the oppisite side of Justin almost every year (from duane clemmons to bryan robinson to robert geathers), we have replaced the entire 2ndary a few positions a few times; CB (from Hawkins to Oneil, from James to Jospeh, from Oneil to Hall, from Ratliff to Oniel) S; (from Roman to Williams, from Becket to Herring, from Herring to Jackson). AND THESE ARE JUST THE STARTERS, I didnt even mention guys lost for the season that had to be replaced last minute like Herring being replaced by Ohalete, or Williams by Kaesviharn, ect.. (thats football, ill accept that, in season). We have had little to no continuity of "core guys" on the D since Marvin has been here due to injury or age. Age I can accept replacing guys due to FA, losing guys like Pollack or Thruman (due to suspention) and having to constantly replace guys from year to year, and not because of FA mind you, will hurt a growing team. This is the biggest problem this D has had.

Now hopefully we can keep guys healthy to the extent that they can play in more games than they dont from year to year, and we dont have to keep replacing them. The 2ndary is now young with the exception of Jackson, the LB unit needs a SAM backer at best (assuming Brooks is 100% healthy next year and Odell is back and in football shape) AT WORST it needs the SAM and WILL replaced (assuming odell isnt back and in football shape). The Dline will have to replace Justin this year as well. So we will have a few new faces again next year. Now if were talking FA I can accept that, that's part of football. However when were talking about having to replace even the guys that were supposed to be your "core guys" every year or close to every year due to injury your going to have problems, I dont care who you are even the "mighty steelers" would stuggle under that scnerio.

But this notion that we've had our "core guys" here since '03 is simply not the case, and is REALLY not the case on the D side of the ball.

Next time do a little research to know what the hell your talking about, here start here: [url="http://www.bengals.com/team/alumni.asp"]http://www.bengals.com/team/alumni.asp[/url][/quote]

You just made my point for me. Thanks.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='605551' date='Dec 7 2007, 09:39 AM']I won't disagree with that. [b]His super bowl was below subpar - it was the worst ever[/b]. But, a win is a win, no matter how you get it.

And, I wasn't saying Ben was a bad quarterback. All I was doing was framing numbers to give them some reference. Oftt4 throws numbers / stats out without qualifying those numbers. To say "who's thrown more INT's" is dumb as hell. Who's thrown more TD's in that case? You have to put it against the number of times the ball goes in the air. In regards to those numbers Palmer throws 8 more passes for every INT he throws... the flip-side is that Palmer also throws about 2 more passes for every TD he throws too.

As for giving up 34 points, if Palmer's in the game that means our offense is on the field more and our defense is resting on the sideline. We'll never know what would have happened in that game but pissburgh doesn't score 34 if Palmer plays that game. And, if they do, then Cincy's scored 41... we'd just beaten you guy's at your place 1 month prior, if I remember correctly. But, we're getting off task.

I will simply argue that Palmer has had a greater impact on the Bengals than Roethlisberger has on the Steelers. The Steelers were perennial playoff teams prior to him being there... The Bengals were perennial 3-13, 4-12 teams prior to Palmer. Those two facts can't be denied.

But, good enough.[/quote]


The worst for a WINNING QB. You always seem to forget that part...John Elway, Fran Tarkenton, among others have had worse performances in the big game.

You dont like YPA? But you do like INT per attempt. Huh. Who is the one throwing stats out the window? So Ben has a higher YPA and TDPA and INTPA....but the only one that matters in the INTPA. Gotcha.

And as for the Bengals being 3-13, etc. I would argue that the improvement started before Palmer did...hence the 8-8 the previous year...that fact cant be denied.