Cold Hard Football Predictions

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt4' post='605999' date='Dec 9 2007, 06:58 AM']You just made my point for me. Thanks.[/quote]


not really, you said the cast has been largely the same you were wrong.

[frankie martin]

Jamie, seriously, you were my favorite mod. What happened?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='frankie martin' post='606726' date='Dec 9 2007, 09:33 PM']Jamie, seriously, you were my favorite mod. What happened?[/quote]


with what?

[frankie martin]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='606730' date='Dec 9 2007, 09:46 PM']with what?[/quote]
I noticed that you aren't a moderator anymore. Btw, you guys better kick the shit outta the Brownies in a couple weeks

[rudi32]

if I had to pick someone to win the division and its not us....i want the browns.................i want the stealers to lose every game and all their players to be hauled off in a bambalance.

those cheap shot fucks even started shit with the cheatriots.

the stealers are the lowest form of scum and the fans are a step below them....


fuck all stealers and their fans,.......may u die in a hellish fire of shit and old fat women

[Paul]

I would love to the Browns get crushed 2 weeks from now and end any chance they have of reaching the playoffs

[oftt4]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='606005' date='Dec 9 2007, 08:30 AM']not really, you said the cast has been largely the same you were wrong.[/quote]

No, actually I said it is stupid to compare one player's effect on teams 4 years apart because there is so much turnover...which you emphasized with your post...again, thank you.

Then I said that the most accurate measure of how much difference a single player makes is to compare his team to the team the year before he started playing...thus the 8-8 to 8-8.

[quote name='rudi32' post='606816' date='Dec 10 2007, 02:30 AM']if I had to pick someone to win the division and its not us....i want the browns.................i want the stealers to lose every game and all their players to be hauled off in a bambalance.

those cheap shot fucks even started shit with the cheatriots.

the stealers are the lowest form of scum and the fans are a step below them....


fuck all stealers and their fans,.......may u die in a hellish fire of shit and old fat women

[/quote]

You know what is funny? You rant about how the Steelers and their fans are scum, while at the same time wishing injury on people you dont even know. Do you even read what you write?

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='oftt4' post='606000' date='Dec 9 2007, 07:02 AM']The worst for a WINNING QB. You always seem to forget that part...John Elway, Fran Tarkenton, among others have had worse performances in the big game.

You dont like YPA? But you do like INT per attempt. Huh. Who is the one throwing stats out the window? So Ben has a higher YPA and TDPA and INTPA....but the only one that matters in the INTPA. Gotcha.

And as for the Bengals being 3-13, etc. I would argue that the improvement started before Palmer did...hence the 8-8 the previous year...that fact cant be denied.[/quote]
You are a jackass...

I expect nothing less from a squealer fan but, as statistics go the more numbers thrown into a figure the smaller that figure goes... it is probability... a shorter yardage play is easier to complete so statistically the "more" attempts you have the more short plays you'll have (because they're easier to complete) hence the higher number of attempts (completions) the lower the YPA would go. I presented 4 case studies to prove my point in Manning, Brady, Roethlisberger, and Palmer... but that was lost on you - big surprise there.

Roethlisberger had the highest YPA of the 4... oh yeah - he was also ~170 less attempts / season than the other three - coincidence? Palmer was .2 of a yard behind Manning and .3 of a yard ahead of Brady... you're contention was to prove Ben was better than Palmer because he had a higher YPA and I just presented arguments that either disprove your theory or you're also stating that Ben is better than Manning and Brady, too... so, which is it?

No, I didn't throw TDPA out the window - don't know where you go that impression. If you look back at one of my posts I stated that Ben throws a TD ~ 2 passes before Palmer does... I didn't dismiss it. It is a fact. I stated it.

So, no I wasn't throwing any stat out the window but on a one to one ratio you can calculate INT vs. pass attempts, yardage not so much.

Did you ride the short bus to school?

Oh yeah - good game last night.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt4' post='606832' date='Dec 10 2007, 07:26 AM']No, actually I said it is stupid to compare one player's effect on teams 4 years apart because there is so much turnover...which you emphasized with your post...again, thank you.

Then I said that the most accurate measure of how much difference a single player makes is to compare his team to the team the year before he started playing...thus the 8-8 to 8-8.



You know what is funny? You rant about how the Steelers and their fans are scum, while at the same time wishing injury on people you dont even know. Do you even read what you write?[/quote]


So what your really saying is untill Carson has a D that hasnt had the amount of turnover we have had he cant be concidered to have had an effect on our winning percentage? (really what your doing here is setting it up so when things change you'' be able to say "look I told you untill he had a D...")


[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] Your such a joke.

[bammorrisgotmehigh]

Sweep

[Vol_Bengal]

After having dealt with the dumbasses that post in this forum I've officially decided that pissburgh fans are as bad as Florida fans...

and, I hate them both equally.

So the team you'd have to beat to win the Super Bowl just kicked your ass by 21 and you'd have to play them again at their house...

Good luck with that. I said about 5-6 weeks ago, that if there was one season to not be too terribly mad that our year is going to suck it is this one because nobody is going to have anything for the Pats. I find it comical for the Cowboy fans saying they think they've got a legit shot when they lost by like 17 at home...



And, to the guy here that has the signature that says OSU Haters are worse than all the pissburgh Trolls put together is on drugs...

[oftt4]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='606844' date='Dec 10 2007, 08:28 AM']You are a jackass...

I expect nothing less from a squealer fan but, as statistics go the more numbers thrown into a figure the smaller that figure goes... it is probability... a shorter yardage play is easier to complete so statistically the "more" attempts you have the more short plays you'll have (because they're easier to complete) hence the higher number of attempts (completions) the lower the YPA would go. I presented 4 case studies to prove my point in Manning, Brady, Roethlisberger, and Palmer... but that was lost on you - big surprise there.

Roethlisberger had the highest YPA of the 4... oh yeah - he was also ~170 less attempts / season than the other three - coincidence? Palmer was .2 of a yard behind Manning and .3 of a yard ahead of Brady... you're contention was to prove Ben was better than Palmer because he had a higher YPA and I just presented arguments that either disprove your theory or you're also stating that Ben is better than Manning and Brady, too... so, which is it?

No, I didn't throw TDPA out the window - don't know where you go that impression. If you look back at one of my posts I stated that Ben throws a TD ~ 2 passes before Palmer does... I didn't dismiss it. It is a fact. I stated it.

So, no I wasn't throwing any stat out the window but on a one to one ratio you can calculate INT vs. pass attempts, yardage not so much.

Did you ride the short bus to school?

Oh yeah - good game last night.[/quote]

You are an idiot.

I expect Bengals fans to manipulate facts to make Palmer look better. You guys brag about having the best recievers in the league EXCEPT when people wonder if they are a large part of why Palmer puts up big numbers. In the beginning of the year Bengals fans bragged about how Palmer's passer rating was higher than Ben's...now it isnt, so that number doesnt matter. In the beginning of the year Bengals fans bragged about how many more TD's Palmer throws in a season, now Ben has more this year...so that number doesnt matter. In the beginning of the year, Bengals fans used the fact that Ben led the league in INT's last season as proof that he sucks, now Palmer leads the league in INT's...so that number doesnt matter.

So lets sum up the season:
Completion percentage doesnt matter because Ben's is higher. TD's dont matter because Ben has more. INT's dont matter because Palmer has more. Passer rating doesnt matter because Ben's is higher. Wins dont matter because Ben has more. YPA doesnt matter because Ben's is higher.

The only thing that matters is that Palmer has more attempts and more yards. Ok. Sure.



As for YPA...Let me throw a case study your way.

2007 YPA top 5 (10 games min)
Tony Romo - playoff team
Tom Brady - playoff team
Brett Favre - playoff team
Jay Cutler - no playoffs
Peyton Manning - playoff team

2006 YPA top 5 (10 games min)
Tony Romo - playoff team
Donovan McNabb - playoff team
Drew Brees - playoff team
Peyton Manning - super bowl winner
Carson palmer - no playoffs

2005 YPA top 5 (10 games min)
Ben Roethlisberger - super bowl winner
Peyton Manning - playoff team
Jake Delhomme - playoff team
Trent Green - no playoffs, but a winning record
Tom Brady - playoff team

Do you see a trend there? The teams whose QB's have a YPA in the top 5 make the playoffs about 80% of the time.

Now as for your theory that YPA automatically goes down as attempts go up...I am throwing the bullshit flag on that one.

2005 - Manning, Delhomme, Brady, and Green each had over 430 attempts
2006 - Brees, Manning, and Palmer had over 500 attempts.

The point is YPA measures the quality of each throw regardless of how many throws there were.



Oh yeah - good season this year.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='oftt4' post='606979' date='Dec 10 2007, 11:18 AM']You are an idiot.

I expect Bengals fans to manipulate facts to make Palmer look better. You guys brag about having the best recievers in the league EXCEPT when people wonder if they are a large part of why Palmer puts up big numbers. In the beginning of the year Bengals fans bragged about how Palmer's passer rating was higher than Ben's...now it isnt, so that number doesnt matter. In the beginning of the year Bengals fans bragged about how many more TD's Palmer throws in a season, now Ben has more this year...so that number doesnt matter. In the beginning of the year, Bengals fans used the fact that Ben led the league in INT's last season as proof that he sucks, now Palmer leads the league in INT's...so that number doesnt matter.

So lets sum up the season:
[b]Completion percentage doesnt matter because Ben's is higher. TD's dont matter because Ben has more. INT's dont matter because Palmer has more. Passer rating doesnt matter because Ben's is higher. Wins dont matter because Ben has more. YPA doesnt matter because Ben's is higher.[/b]

The only thing that matters is that Palmer has more attempts and more yards. Ok. Sure.



As for YPA...Let me throw a case study your way.

2007 YPA top 5 (10 games min)
Tony Romo - playoff team
Tom Brady - playoff team
Brett Favre - playoff team
Jay Cutler - no playoffs
Peyton Manning - playoff team

2006 YPA top 5 (10 games min)
Tony Romo - playoff team
Donovan McNabb - playoff team
Drew Brees - playoff team
Peyton Manning - super bowl winner
Carson palmer - no playoffs

2005 YPA top 5 (10 games min)
Ben Roethlisberger - super bowl winner
Peyton Manning - playoff team
Jake Delhomme - playoff team
Trent Green - no playoffs, but a winning record
Tom Brady - playoff team

Do you see a trend there? The teams whose QB's have a YPA in the top 5 make the playoffs about 80% of the time.

Now as for your theory that YPA automatically goes down as attempts go up...I am throwing the bullshit flag on that one.

2005 - Manning, Delhomme, Brady, and Green each had over 430 attempts
2006 - Brees, Manning, and Palmer had over 500 attempts.

The point is YPA measures the quality of each throw regardless of how many throws there were.



Oh yeah - good season this year.[/quote]
Back to the dumbass again...

I never said any of that. I've said it twice and I'll say it one more time so your dumb ass can understand...

# of TD and # of INT's as a pure total doesn't have much relevance until you frame it against the number of times the quarterback puts the ball in the air... Otherwise, backups quarterbacks could look like hall of famers potentially.

Now, I didn't name a single quarterback in that statement.

I'll go to YPA again, for the slow people. Look at career YPA. Go ahead. I'm not going to spend the time verifying your numbers but where is Mark Bulger in 05? He was #3. But, again, you're arguing something entirely different than what was being argued originally. You're now presenting the fact that teams that have qb's with top 5 YPA's will be better... NO SHIT!

Just like teams with rb's in the top 5 in YPC (with minimums, etc. just like you had for the qb's) are going to be better too... it doesn't take a genius to figure that out. That isn't what was being argued...

You brought up the fact that Roethlisberger's was better than Palmer's, thus a better qb. I didn't disagree with that. All I said was by that pure theory then he is also better than Manning and Brady as he's a yard better than Brady and about .5 yard better than Manning. Palmer sits right between those guys...

So, is that your contention? If so, just state it.

But, as before, when I start to get a headache because I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall I'm done. You start to argue in one direction, then change direction mid-stream...

Good luck to ya.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='607012' date='Dec 10 2007, 12:14 PM']# of TD and # of INT's as a pure total doesn't have much relevance until you frame it against the number of times the quarterback puts the ball in the air... Otherwise, backups quarterbacks could look like hall of famers potentially.[/quote]

While I agree that TD% and INT% are a quality measure, who the hell really ever cares about it?

Off the top of your head, what was peyton manning's TD% the year he threw 49? Of course you dont know, because nobody gives a shit. All they care about is that he threw 49 TD's.

Just because YOU dont think totals mean anything doesnt make it true.

In essence, though, you are correct...averages are a true measure of a QB's efficiency. YPA, TDPA, and INTPA...which is essentially what the passer rating formula represents...do we need to get back into passer rating?

[oftt4]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='607012' date='Dec 10 2007, 12:14 PM']You brought up the fact that Roethlisberger's was better than Palmer's, thus a better qb. I didn't disagree with that. All I said was by that pure theory then he is also better than Manning and Brady as he's a yard better than Brady and about .5 yard better than Manning. Palmer sits right between those guys...[/quote]

I dont recall once saying "Ben is better than Carson"...but it makes me laugh that implying it pisses you guys off so much.

My whole intention is to disprove the "Ben isnt in Carson's league" nonsense that spews out of Bengals fans mouths.

All I want is a reason explaining how that is so. I still havent gotten one besides..."well Carson has to throw more"...so what. Quantity and quality are two separate things. I understand that the Bengals defense blows, which leads to Palmer not winning as many games as Ben, so I try not to use wins. But when I try to use any stats (comp%, YPA, etc) it always comes back to "Well Carson throws more". I am not the only one who argues in circles.

I freely admit that Carson is a good QB, I dont think he is an "elite top 3" Qb like some here make him out to be (i think he benefits from a fantastic supporting cast on offense), but he is definately one of the better QB's in the league. I also think Ben is one of the better QB's in the league. As for who is better....I dont really know...each has his own strength and weaknesses...my preference is Ben obviously, but it wont make me say that "Carson isnt in Ben's league".

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='oftt4' post='607059' date='Dec 10 2007, 02:41 PM']I dont recall once saying "Ben is better than Carson"...but it makes me laugh that implying it pisses you guys off so much.

My whole intention is to disprove the "Ben isnt in Carson's league" nonsense that spews out of Bengals fans mouths.

All I want is a reason explaining how that is so. I still havent gotten one besides..."well Carson has to throw more"...so what. Quantity and quality are two separate things. I understand that the Bengals defense blows, which leads to Palmer not winning as many games as Ben, so I try not to use wins. But when I try to use any stats (comp%, YPA, etc) it always comes back to "Well Carson throws more". I am not the only one who argues in circles.

I freely admit that Carson is a good QB, I dont think he is an "elite top 3" Qb like some here make him out to be (i think he benefits from a fantastic supporting cast on offense), but he is definately one of the better QB's in the league. I also think Ben is one of the better QB's in the league. As for who is better....I dont really know...each has his own strength and weaknesses...my preference is Ben obviously, but it wont make me say that "Carson isnt in Ben's league".[/quote]
You implying anything doesn't piss me off. Unless you imply I said something I didn't.

I don't think I've ever said that Ben wasn't in Carson's league... Going into this season if you polled most football talking heads Merrill Hoge, etc. they all had Palmer in the Brady / Manning category. Roeth wasn't in that conversation. After this season - I'd think he definitely will be. He's good quarterback.

When you refer to "Well Carson throws more", do you not agree that the more you throw it the higher the odds are you'll throw an interception? By the same token you should theoretically throw more TD's... Also, as an example - if it is statistically harder to complete a 30+ yard pass as it is to complete 15 yard pass which are you going to throw more of? And, statistically which are you going to complete more of? The shorter pass is going to drag down the YPA, because you're going to throw more of them and complete more of them... It is just a fact. That isn't a statement about any particular quarterback - that is across the board. That is where I'm coming from when I have an issue with YPA. I go back to career numbers and you're using Roeth's 8.2 (or whatever it was) and saying it is better than Palmer's. That may very well be the case. If that is so, then that means his 8.2 is better than Manning's 7.7, Palmer's 7.4, and Brady's 7.2. That is just a fact. But, what are you saying? Those latter three all had ~ 170, or more on average, attempts per season over the last 4, than Roethlisberger... is that just a coincidence? Especially when you're looking at the gold standard for the two best in the game having a lower number than Roeth? I guess that is where I'm at with the YPA stat - what value does it truely have? What is it really telling you? Throw fewer balls and your YPA will be higher over the course of a career? I don't know.

I said very straightforwardly that Carson threw INT's at a slower rate than Ben, but he also threw TD's at a slower rate. I didn't make a judgement on the players other than on the two stated facts.

As for which I'd want - depends on the offensive line I had. If they were a poor pass blocking team then I'd want Ben because of his mobility. But, if they were really good pass blockers, etc. then I'd choose Palmer.

From a pure passing standpoint I think Palmer is the better quarterback, much like Manning is to Brady. I think Roethlisberger may have an intangible or two, similar to Brady, that maybe they're not the greatest passer, etc. but they get it done however they have to.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='607074' date='Dec 10 2007, 03:23 PM']As for which I'd want - depends on the offensive line I had. If they were a poor pass blocking team then I'd want Ben because of his mobility. But, if they were really good pass blockers, etc. then I'd choose Palmer.

From a pure passing standpoint I think Palmer is the better quarterback, much like Manning is to Brady. I think Roethlisberger may have an intangible or two, similar to Brady, that maybe they're not the greatest passer, etc. but they get it done however they have to.[/quote]

Cant argue with that. I have repeatedly said that I think Palmer is a better passer, but I think Ben is a better "QB". Similar to the Manning-Brady war that has been going on for the past several years.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt4' post='607341' date='Dec 11 2007, 06:48 AM']Cant argue with that. I have repeatedly said that I think Palmer is a better passer, but I think Ben is a better "QB". Similar to the Manning-Brady war that has been going on for the past several years.[/quote]


Actually I think I recall you saying Brady wasnt on Manning's level or something similiar to that effect that he was only "good" due to having a great D...check that I know I heard you say this.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='607342' date='Dec 11 2007, 06:58 AM']Actually I think I recall you saying Brady wasnt on Manning's level or something similiar to that effect that he was only "good" due to having a great D...check that I know I heard you say this.[/quote]

I said Brady was no good huh?

Brady certainly has benefitted from a great D, and Manning certainly is a better passer than he is, but I dont think I have ever said Brady was "only" good because of his D.

Care to supply me with a link? Any proof at all that I said that?

And whats up? Are you not a mod anymore?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt4' post='607360' date='Dec 11 2007, 08:51 AM']I said Brady was no good huh?

Brady certainly has benefitted from a great D, and Manning certainly is a better passer than he is, but I dont think I have ever said Brady was "only" good because of his D.

Care to supply me with a link? Any proof at all that I said that?

And whats up? Are you not a mod anymore?[/quote]


lord do you realize how big this site is and how deep I'd have to go to look for that link? I do remember it was in the bengals section, you had implied that Brady wasnt on Manning's level due to the idea that he had that great defense.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='607377' date='Dec 11 2007, 09:19 AM']lord do you realize how big this site is and how deep I'd have to go to look for that link? I do remember it was in the bengals section, you had implied that Brady wasnt on Manning's level due to the idea that he had that great defense.[/quote]


So do a search for keyword "Brady" by member "oftt4"....I did that, and found absolutley nothing even close to what you claim that I said. As a matter of fact, the only thing I could find was me once saying that Brady didnt have a great deep ball. Nice try though.

Here, let me have a turn.

I think that you once said that Ben was a far better QB than Palmer....check that, I know I heard you say this.

See? Its easy to make ridiculous claims when there is no burden of proof.

So, you still havent answered....are you not a mod anymore?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt4' post='607382' date='Dec 11 2007, 09:27 AM']So do a search for keyword "Brady" by member "oftt4"....I did that, and found absolutley nothing even close to what you claim that I said. As a matter of fact, the only thing I could find was me once saying that Brady didnt have a great deep ball. Nice try though.

Here, let me have a turn.

I think that you once said that Ben was a far better QB than Palmer....check that, I know I heard you say this.

See? Its easy to make ridiculous claims when there is no burden of proof.

So, you still havent answered....are you not a mod anymore?[/quote]


I think I have narrowed this down, the Jaw's and other anylists of the world have put Manning, Brady, and Palmer in the eliete category, the oftt (who obviously cant admit anything not wearing black and piss yellow could be elite) wouldnt put Brady in the elite category, so OF COURSE you wouldnt put Palmer in there either.

Your link sir: [url="http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=30522&view=findpost&p=472363"]http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=472363[/url]

Now lets see, who's opinion is going to hold more weight as far as I'm concerned? Jaws or oftt4?? [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/39.gif[/img]


As to the last thing, Im not commenting untill that whole thing has played itself out.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='607453' date='Dec 11 2007, 12:54 PM']I think I have narrowed this down, the Jaw's and other anylists of the world have put Manning, Brady, and Palmer in the eliete category, the oftt (who obviously cant admit anything not wearing black and piss yellow could be elite) wouldnt put Brady in the elite category, so OF COURSE you wouldnt put Palmer in there either.

Your link sir: [url="http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=30522&view=findpost&p=472363"]http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=472363[/url]

Now lets see, who's opinion is going to hold more weight as far as I'm concerned? Jaws or oftt4?? [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/39.gif[/img]


As to the last thing, Im not commenting untill that whole thing has played itself out.[/quote]

This is the quote huh? This is where I say Brady is no good? That's a stretch brother.

[quote name='oftt4' post='472363' date='Apr 14 2007, 05:22 PM']Interesting note....try to look up Brady's success at late 4th quarter drives when the Pats need a TD, and not just a FG, to go ahead. You might be surprised.

Brady has benefitted from a great defense, coaching staff, kicker, and a large amount of good fortune (seemed like every bounce went the Pats way for 3 years, made me sick). Does that mean he isnt one the the game's elite? Not sure. I would take a few QB's before him, but that is just me.[/quote]

Tell me where I said in there that Brady is "only" good because of his D. I said he has benefitted from many things, and that I would take a few QB's before him....where exactly do I say he is no good?

And as for not putting him in the elite category...I said i would take a few QB's before him...a few implies 3 at the most...which would make him 4th....is 4th not elite?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt4' post='607483' date='Dec 11 2007, 02:12 PM']This is the quote huh? This is where I say Brady is no good? That's a stretch brother.



Tell me where I said in there that Brady is "only" good because of his D. I said he has benefitted from many things, and that I would take a few QB's before him....where exactly do I say he is no good?

And as for not putting him in the elite category...I said i would take a few QB's before him...a few implies 3 at the most...which would make him 4th....is 4th not elite?[/quote]

Streach? I put no good in quotes, thus implying varrying degrees of good. I didnt say you said he sucked either.

To further and answer this second thing. Thats what Im trying to pin you down to, what makes oftts eliete list for a QB? I gave you mine several months ago, (i can look it up if I have to) and I know Jaws who's opinion I respect puts Manning, Brady, and Palmer on that short list, then I blieve includes Ben on the 2nd tier guys. I know Peter King said he'd take Breeze before Palmer (wonder if he still feels that way), but I place the Burger King before Peter King imo.

To me in boils down to this. Your drafting and have any choice of QB.. you havent made a "system" yet, your going to do that when you get your guys to know which system would work best for them, your drafting on pure talent alone. You can include some intangables like leadership, ect (so long as they and not the team have proven that they have those) but lean more on the talent persepctive because intangables are hard to measure, but you can include them.

Rank your QB's then, and where is your cut off between eliete and 2nd teir?

Also you have Palmer and Ben both in your fantasy team, who did you choose 1st?

[oftt4]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='607519' date='Dec 11 2007, 03:05 PM']Streach? I put no good in quotes, thus implying varrying degrees of good. I didnt say you said he sucked either.

To further and answer this second thing. Thats what Im trying to pin you down to, what makes oftts eliete list for a QB? I gave you mine several months ago, (i can look it up if I have to) and I know Jaws who's opinion I respect puts Manning, Brady, and Palmer on that short list, then I blieve includes Ben on the 2nd tier guys. I know Peter King said he'd take Breeze before Palmer (wonder if he still feels that way), but I place the Burger King before Peter King imo.

To me in boils down to this. Your drafting and have any choice of QB.. you havent made a "system" yet, your going to do that when you get your guys to know which system would work best for them, your drafting on pure talent alone. You can include some intangables like leadership, ect (so long as they and not the team have proven that they have those) but lean more on the talent persepctive because intangables are hard to measure, but you can include them.

Rank your QB's then, and where is your cut off between eliete and 2nd teir?

Also you have Palmer and Ben both in your fantasy team, who did you choose 1st? [/quote]


I picked Palmer first obviously, he puts up fantasy numbers. At least he did. Next year he wont go so high.

If I had to build a real team? I take Manning without a 2nd thought. If he isnt there then I dont know. I think Manning transcends systems...and I think he is the only one who does. Ben makes bad decisions, Palmer has bad pocket awareness, Brady gets rattled when he gets pressured (it hardly ever happens, but it does), Brees is too streaky, etc.

If I had to pick, I would go with track records...history...that makes it Brady...then Ben...nobody else has had any "big" game success. Bring up the SB performance all you want, but Ben is 5-1 in the playoffs.

And as for the Jaws thing...we have already gone over this...

[b]ESPN commentator Ron Jaworski is a Cold, Hard Football Facts favorite. But he fell into a typical "pundit" trap yesterday, making a wild overstatement with no evidence to support it. He declared Cincy's Carson Palmer one of the NFL's elite QBs, along with Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, but then added, "He's gotta prove he's an elite QB."[/b]

He said Palmer is on the list but he needed to prove that he belonged there...do you think he is still on Jaws' list now? and if he isnt, do you still "respect his opinion"?


How about these quotes...do you respect this guy's opinion? I doubt it.

[url="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20631957/page/2/"]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20631957/page/2/[/url]
[b]And here’s why Roethlisberger deserves mention as one of the game’s very elite quarterbacks (in fact, you could argue he’s the second best quarterback behind Brady): He’s almost singularly responsible for pissburgh returning to championship-contender status each year.[/b]

(it goes on from there with some interesting info to back up the statement, but I doubt you are interested)


How about this guy's opinion?
[url="http://www.wickedlocal.com/ghs-newsservice/sports/columnists/x676136793"]http://www.wickedlocal.com/ghs-newsservice...ists/x676136793[/url]


Oh, and I see that you are mod again. Problem resolved I take it?