Who’s up / Who’s down

[Oldcat]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='687813' date='Aug 15 2008, 11:19 AM']Bold prediction: Graham is playin elsewhere next year.[/quote]

Only if he tells us to piss up a rope. And we would be in big trouble then.

[BengalSIS]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='687813' date='Aug 15 2008, 01:19 PM']He's missed a FG against BAL every year since 2004, and atleast 1 against PIT each year since 2005 on top of not kicking the team into the playoffs in 06.

Obviously a team can overcome a missed FG in the second qtr...but you guys are kidding yourself if you don't think missed FGs can change the outcome of a game where momentum is paramount. Every loss we've had to Shitsburgh in the ML era we have been in the game unitl 1 singular point where the momentum is gone and the team is deflated...be it a 3rd and 8 conversion on the ground where Parker breaks 3 tackles, or Big Jen scrambling to pick up a first on 4th down, or Graham missing a FG after a big drive. I don't trust him. He's great until we need him, then he's just average.

Bold prediction: Graham is playin elsewhere next year.[/quote]


I'm starting not to like you and you are proving you don't know shit about this topic.

And if you want Stover or Reed, then you aren't paying attention to their stats either. neither have been perfect when their team needed them. And making 86% of your kicks means you ARE making most of those "momentum changing" opportunities.

Stop contradicting yourself and go play in another thread.

[mt-bengal]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='687813' date='Aug 15 2008, 12:19 PM']He's missed a FG against BAL every year since 2004, and atleast 1 against PIT each year since 2005 on top of not kicking the team into the playoffs in 06.

Obviously a team can overcome a missed FG in the second qtr...but you guys are kidding yourself if you don't think missed FGs can change the outcome of a game where momentum is paramount. Every loss we've had to Shitsburgh in the ML era we have been in the game unitl 1 singular point where the momentum is gone and the team is deflated...be it a 3rd and 8 conversion on the ground where Parker breaks 3 tackles, or Big Jen scrambling to pick up a first on 4th down, or Graham missing a FG after a big drive. I don't trust him. He's great until we need him, then he's just average.

Bold prediction: Graham is playin elsewhere next year.[/quote]


To quote a wise man (GO)......you have no idea what your talking about.......no idea........even a little bit.

[BengalSIS]

BTW...playing elsewhere wouldn't mean he wasn't good enough..it would just mean another team was smart enough to take him.

You would REALLY be making a prediction to say he wouldn't be playing at all.

Ante up!

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='687813' date='Aug 15 2008, 02:19 PM']He's missed a FG against BAL every year since 2004, and atleast 1 against PIT each year since 2005 on top of not kicking the team into the playoffs in 06.

Obviously a team can overcome a missed FG in the second qtr...but you guys are kidding yourself if you don't think missed FGs can change the outcome of a game where momentum is paramount. Every loss we've had to Shitsburgh in the ML era we have been in the game unitl 1 singular point where the momentum is gone and the team is deflated...be it a 3rd and 8 conversion on the ground where Parker breaks 3 tackles, or Big Jen scrambling to pick up a first on 4th down, or Graham missing a FG after a big drive. I don't trust him. He's great until we need him, then he's just average.

Bold prediction: Graham is playin elsewhere next year.[/quote]


Or maybe it's a matter of perspective..

Are you as appreciative of the fact you got to eat dinner last night as you would be upset if it had been denied?

[mjm47]

I've been assuming that if they don't work out an extension with Shayne that they'd franchise him - I can't imagine that they'd just let him go.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='BengalSIS' post='687817' date='Aug 15 2008, 02:28 PM']I'm starting not to like you and you are proving you don't know shit about this topic.

And if you want Stover or Reed, then you aren't paying attention to their stats either. neither have been perfect when their team needed them. And making 86% of your kicks means you ARE making most of those "momentum changing" opportunities.

Stop contradicting yourself and go play in another thread. [/quote]


I disagree. Its the same arguement with A-Rod. Guy pads his stats with homers and RBIs when the game is lost or won already.

Point being its ok to miss a FG against the Dolphins because they suck...its not ok to miss a FG against the Steelers (which he does every year) because they don't suck. I expect the team to be able to make up for a missed FG against a bottom feeder like Miami. Against the cream of the crop you can't have that mistake. Vinateri was/is an average joe all the time...except big games. Doesn't matter if its a big game in week 3 or the AFC championship, he played his best against rivals and when facing elimination....I don't think Grahams got it in him, would love for him to prove me wrong, but he won't because he's not clutch.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='687824' date='Aug 15 2008, 02:37 PM']I disagree. Its the same arguement with A-Rod. Guy pads his stats with homers and RBIs when the game is lost or won already.

Point being its ok to miss a FG against the Dolphins because they suck...its not ok to miss a FG against the Steelers (which he does every year) because they don't suck. I expect the team to be able to make up for a missed FG against a bottom feeder like Miami. Against the cream of the crop you can't have that mistake. Vinateri was/is an average joe all the time...except big games. Doesn't matter if its a big game in week 3 or the AFC championship, he played his best against rivals and when facing elimination....I don't think Grahams got it in him, would love for him to prove me wrong, but he won't because he's not clutch.[/quote]


Since you seem so knowldegable of Shaynes success and failures, woul'd you mind providing the situations that prove your point?

Seems as though you are making some broad assumptions.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Lucid' post='687822' date='Aug 15 2008, 02:31 PM']Or maybe it's a matter of perspective..

Are you as appreciative of the fact you got to eat dinner last night as you would be upset if it had been denied?[/quote]


I was pretty appreciative of my dinner last night...made some chicken with a nice teriaki (sp?) glaze, sauteed some green beans in the same type of glaze, add a baked potatoe and it was fantastic.

[BengalSIS]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='687824' date='Aug 15 2008, 01:37 PM']I disagree. Its the same arguement with A-Rod. Guy pads his stats with homers and RBIs when the game is lost or won already.

Point being its ok to miss a FG against the Dolphins because they suck...its not ok to miss a FG against the Steelers (which he does every year) because they don't suck. I expect the team to be able to make up for a missed FG against a bottom feeder like Miami. Against the cream of the crop you can't have that mistake. Vinateri was/is an average joe all the time...except big games. Doesn't matter if its a big game in week 3 or the AFC championship, he played his best against rivals and when facing elimination....I don't think Grahams got it in him, would love for him to prove me wrong, but he won't because he's not clutch.[/quote]


Again...shows what you know. Vinny missed several FGs in the superbowl...You think THOSE are "easily made up" against a bottom feeder? His ass was just lucky enough to get third chances.

And he proved that he's just an average kicker when he traded teams and didn't have a dynasty to hold him up. Shayne has to make every kick with every team because he knows we aren't a powerhouse (yet) that can beat the bottom feeders consistently.

The fact he's missed some makes him human. Not to mention, that every kick involves THREE people that have to all do their job perfectly.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='687826' date='Aug 15 2008, 02:42 PM']I was pretty appreciative of my dinner last night...made some chicken with a nice teriaki (sp?) glaze, sauteed some green beans in the same type of glaze, add a baked potatoe and it was fantastic.


[/quote]


Somehow this doesn't seem like an honest reply..

[Oldcat]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='687824' date='Aug 15 2008, 11:37 AM']I disagree. Its the same arguement with A-Rod. Guy pads his stats with homers and RBIs when the game is lost or won already.

Point being its ok to miss a FG against the Dolphins because they suck...its not ok to miss a FG against the Steelers (which he does every year) because they don't suck. I expect the team to be able to make up for a missed FG against a bottom feeder like Miami. Against the cream of the crop you can't have that mistake. Vinateri was/is an average joe all the time...except big games. Doesn't matter if its a big game in week 3 or the AFC championship, he played his best against rivals and when facing elimination....I don't think Grahams got it in him, would love for him to prove me wrong, but he won't because he's not clutch.[/quote]

Mister Clutch Vinateri was like 1-3 in FGs in that superbowl against the Eagles. Make the last one and you're a hero. Shayne has made game winning FGs against both the Steelers and Ravens.

Why not tear into Carson for not putting us 3 TDs ahead? He's about the only position on the team that is LESS of a question mark than kicker.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='BengalSIS' post='687821' date='Aug 15 2008, 02:30 PM']BTW...playing elsewhere wouldn't mean he wasn't good enough..it would just mean another team was smart enough to take him.

You would REALLY be making a prediction to say he wouldn't be playing at all.

Ante up![/quote]


No, I'm not saying he's not good enough to play in the league. I'm making an arguement that I would take a 70% FG kicker who made all his kicks against division opponents and when the game was on the line over an 85% kicker who was iffy in the division and when the game was on the line.

I don't think he will come through this year when we need him too and I don't think the team will re-sign him...just my opinion.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='687830' date='Aug 15 2008, 02:47 PM']No, I'm not saying he's not good enough to play in the league. I'm making an arguement that [b]I would take a 70% FG kicker who made all his kicks against division opponents[/b] and when the game was on the line over an 85% kicker who was iffy in the division and when the game was on the line.

I don't think he will come through this year when we need him too and I don't think the team will re-sign him...just my opinion.[/quote]

I don't think you can provide an example of this mythical creature.

Do try.

[BengalSIS]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='687830' date='Aug 15 2008, 01:47 PM']No, I'm not saying he's not good enough to play in the league. I'm making an arguement that I would take a 70% FG kicker who made all his kicks against division opponents and when the game was on the line over an 85% kicker who was iffy in the division and when the game was on the line.

I don't think he will come through this year when we need him too and I don't think the team will re-sign him...just my opinion.[/quote]


It's easy to predict failure because at some point in time, we all do.

I want you to predict the guy you think will do what you say. Any player, any team. We'll compare at the end of the season.

Fair enough?

And did you WATCH the youtube video (all of it)? Gives you chills doesn't it?

[Squirrlnutz]

Its obvious I don't share the same opinion of Graham as all of you do. The guy is good but I'd much rather have Josh Brown, Vinatieri, Reed or Stover. Guys you can count on when the game is on the line.

Think about this...If we didn't have Graham would you welcome Nate Kaeding? His career % is 86.7 vs Graham's which is 85.4. So projected out as long as Graham has been playing Kaeding will be better. Or will the fact that he's 2 of 6 int he playoffs deter you? I know it would deter me

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='687834' date='Aug 15 2008, 03:05 PM']Its obvious I don't share the same opinion of Graham as all of you do. The guy is good but I'd much rather have Josh Brown, Vinatieri, Reed or Stover. Guys you can count on when the game is on the line.

Think about this...If we didn't have Graham would you welcome Nate Kaeding? His career % is 86.7 vs Graham's which is 85.4. So projected out as long as Graham has been playing Kaeding will be better. Or will the fact that he's 2 of 6 int he playoffs deter you? I know it would deter me[/quote]


So missing 2 FG in the SB is fine for you??

What if that was the only SB he had ever been in?


You do realize that stats become more meaningfull the larger the sample?

[Squirrlnutz]

Can't watch the video at work.

The man I speak of doesn't exist. Its a theoretical arguement. I don't care about kickers until the game is on the line. They are the only position where everything they did all season long can be wasted in one play. He gets his 2, 3, 4 whatever million dollar paycheck to make the kick that puts us in the playoffs, not to go 3 of 3 against the Bills in week 4.

[BengalSIS]

I'm not as good as others at finding old games, but I thought Stover missed a couple big ones last year? Same with Vinny who missed a game winner...24 yarder or something last year.

People have short memories when it suits them.

[BengalSIS]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='687836' date='Aug 15 2008, 02:10 PM']Can't watch the video at work.

The man I speak of doesn't exist. Its a theoretical arguement. I don't care about kickers until the game is on the line. They are the only position where everything they did all season long can be wasted in one play. He gets his 2, 3, 4 whatever million dollar paycheck to make the kick that puts us in the playoffs, not to go 3 of 3 against the Bills in week 4.[/quote]


And this is why you will never be happy with any kicker. You don't understand the kicking game and are just an armchair coach. You only call the ones missed important, and you underestimate the value of the made ones.

That's fine. There are millions of you out there.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Lucid' post='687835' date='Aug 15 2008, 03:08 PM']So missing 2 FG in the SB is fine for you??

What if that was the only SB he had ever been in?


You do realize that stats become more meaningfull the larger the sample?[/quote]


No its not ok for me...its ok for HIM because that was HIS 3rd superbowl and had already proven his worth.

Anyone of you that claims you have 100% confidence in him the next time hes attempting a game-winner against Pitt is full of shit...except maybe the girl...you probably do have 100% confidence.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='BengalSIS' post='687838' date='Aug 15 2008, 03:13 PM']And this is why you will never be happy with any kicker. You don't understand the kicking game and are just an armchair coach. You only call the ones missed important, and you underestimate the value of the made ones.

That's fine. There are millions of you out there.[/quote]


Yeah its also Bill Parcell's philosophy

[USN Bengal]

FACT: Most places I've been on the WWW and around the USA refer to Shayne Graham as "Money" Graham.

As a kicker, your misses are going to be remembered a helluva lot more clearly than your successes. ALL kickers have missed some clutch kicks, and made some clutch kicks.
Shayne's only real big miss was at Pittsburgh, and if the team hadn't choked out when we were 8-5, you'd never remember that miss because we would've been in the playoffs anyway.

I'd rather have Shayne Graham than any of the above mentioned kickers because he is/was/will be a Bengal who has made MANY clutch kicks already... and will make more as the future comes along.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='687839' date='Aug 15 2008, 03:15 PM']No its not ok for me...its ok for HIM because that was HIS 3rd superbowl and had already proven his worth.

Anyone of you that claims you have 100% confidence in him the next time hes attempting a game-winner against Pitt is full of shit...except maybe the girl...you probably do have 100% confidence.[/quote]


Way to duck the question... I asked what if it was his only one.


And I don't see you saying the winning kicks shayne has made is an excuse for the ones he missed... Please be consistant

Also, since you already stated the kicker you want doesn't exist, you have pretty much destroyed your entire argument.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='687830' date='Aug 15 2008, 02:47 PM']No, I'm not saying he's not good enough to play in the league. I'm making an arguement that I would take a 70% FG kicker who made all his kicks against division opponents and when the game was on the line over an 85% kicker who was iffy in the division and when the game was on the line.

I don't think he will come through this year when we need him too and I don't think the team will re-sign him...just my opinion.[/quote]

I seem to remember Stover missing down at PBS just last year... didn't he???

Or, what about mister clutch Vinatieri going 50% last year at San Diego and Indy losing by 2 pts. One of those kicks was from less than 30 yards...


And, I don't mean to disparage Vinatieri because I like him. But, you have got to absolutely be out of your mind...

Josh Brown missed two field goals a couple years back against the Cowboys, I believe, that cost them the playoffs. That was the year that Romo fumbled the snap the next week and the Cowboys lost.

That'll do for now. Don't throw up examples of "clutch" kickers that have all had their own issues.