PakMan Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 Before I continue, let me state flatly...I don't think Carson sucks, I haven't given up on the Bengals, and yes I know the OLine didn't have a great game. Anyway, I feel like Carson improved each of his first 3 years in the league, and has since just not gotten any better. I don't know if its because the OLine and cast haven't gotten better around him, or if he truly is regressing. Either way, there are some things I think he needs to seriously improve on. 1) Pocket awareness/ presence - Carson reminds me of Drew Bledsoe the way he stands back there with his eyes downfield until he gets crowded by Dlineman. Then he either gets hit too hard or has to rush his throw. His inability to slide around in the pocket to create more room for himself, like Peyton Manning, Brady, and Romo have mastered, makes it hard for the offense to consistently put sustained drives together since Brat's playbook is predicated on medium to long routes, and our Oline aren't as good as they used to be. 2) Play action - I don't know how much or little he works on this, but I really think Carson is the worst in the league at selling fakes. Fitzpatrick had a couple of good fakes, and even Drew Stanton had a couple good ones, so why does Carson suck at it. I believe its because he's such a robot QB, and has very little cleverness/ craftiness to his game. He essentially executes everything that he is programmed to do, which is why he looks unbelievable when everything around him is working, and looks aloof/lost at other times. 3) When pressured, he throws off of his back foot - In fact, he actually takes a small step backwards when he sees someone coming at him. This causes the ball to float and either gets picked or allows the DB to make a play on the ball. I'm sure this is related to his knee injury. My proposed solution to help with #1 and #3 is to call more short to intermediate routes. More comebacks, short crosses, screens, and slants. Basically, add a little west coast to our offense. As for #2, Carson needs to spend a couple of weeks with Boomer, because he and Peyton had/have the best fakes I"ve ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 [quote name='PakMan' post='688815' date='Aug 18 2008, 02:39 PM']Before I continue, let me state flatly...I don't think Carson sucks, I haven't given up on the Bengals, and yes I know the OLine didn't have a great game. Anyway, I feel like Carson improved each of his first 3 years in the league, and has since just not gotten any better. I don't know if its because the OLine and cast haven't gotten better around him, or if he truly is regressing. Either way, there are some things I think he needs to seriously improve on. 1) Pocket awareness/ presence - Carson reminds me of Drew Bledsoe the way he stands back there with his eyes downfield until he gets crowded by Dlineman. Then he either gets hit too hard or has to rush his throw. His inability to slide around in the pocket to create more room for himself, like Peyton Manning, Brady, and Romo have mastered, makes it hard for the offense to consistently put sustained drives together since Brat's playbook is predicated on medium to long routes, and our Oline aren't as good as they used to be. 2) Play action - I don't know how much or little he works on this, but I really think Carson is the worst in the league at selling fakes. Fitzpatrick had a couple of good fakes, and even Drew Stanton had a couple good ones, so why does Carson suck at it. I believe its because he's such a robot QB, and has very little cleverness/ craftiness to his game. He essentially executes everything that he is programmed to do, which is why he looks unbelievable when everything around him is working, and looks aloof/lost at other times. 3) When pressured, he throws off of his back foot - In fact, he actually takes a small step backwards when he sees someone coming at him. This causes the ball to float and either gets picked or allows the DB to make a play on the ball. I'm sure this is related to his knee injury. My proposed solution to help with #1 and #3 is to call more short to intermediate routes. More comebacks, short crosses, screens, and slants. Basically, add a little west coast to our offense. As for #2, Carson needs to spend a couple of weeks with Boomer, because he and Peyton had/have the best fakes I"ve ever seen.[/quote] I stated two of these points (1 and 3) last night during the game. I absolutely agree. It's frustrating seeing him get the ball stripped from behind and he doesn't see it coming. A simple step up and they don't touch him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 A lot of this post is pretty accruate. What you have to put into perspective is that he "had a down year" or "stopped getting better" and the results are 4000 yards 28 TDs...so while it at times it looked like he could be a 40 td a year guy, I'll glady take 4000 yards and 28 TDs year in and year out, as will most fans of most teams. I really think Brat is to blame for a lot of it. Drags and Slants are non-existant on this team. Contras that with the Pats (granted they had 5 recievers on every play but still) they had 2 guys either slanting or running a drag route on EVERY SINGLE PLAY! Its very simple for a guy with Brady's smarts to read a hole in the LBs and drop a pass in there for 4 yards and hope the WR can make something happen after that...the Bengals NEVER do that. I can't for the life of me figure out why. It seems like if they are going to pass they want more than 4 yards or its not worth it. Our O has been pretty complicated for a while and when they are running the no-huddle they use that to their advantage...but it seems that its too complicated and starting to hinder itself. I think a solid run game will do wonders for our passing system ala 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='688818' date='Aug 18 2008, 02:51 PM']A lot of this post is pretty accruate. What you have to put into perspective is that he "had a down year" or "stopped getting better" and the results are 4000 yards 28 TDs...so while it at times it looked like he could be a 40 td a year guy, I'll glady take 4000 yards and 28 TDs year in and year out, as will most fans of most teams. I really think Brat is to blame for a lot of it. Drags and Slants are non-existant on this team. Contras that with the Pats (granted they had 5 recievers on every play but still) they had 2 guys either slanting or running a drag route on EVERY SINGLE PLAY! Its very simple for a guy with Brady's smarts to read a hole in the LBs and drop a pass in there for 4 yards and hope the WR can make something happen after that...the Bengals NEVER do that. I can't for the life of me figure out why. It seems like if they are going to pass they want more than 4 yards or its not worth it. Our O has been pretty complicated for a while and when they are running the no-huddle they use that to their advantage...but it seems that its too complicated and starting to hinder itself. I think a solid run game will do wonders for our passing system ala 2005[/quote] Some points I agree with in there, but the basic fact that Palmer does not seem aware of how to move to the open hole as well as maybe he should at this point stands. Regardless of what Brat calls. See the difference in how Palmer addressed the pressure yesterday with how Fitz did it. Not saying Fitz is better QB, but he bought himself more time last night. (Comparing second qtr only, since Fitz didn't play against first string D) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 I think post-injury his mechanics have slipped, and he's even admitted that this mechanics and fundamentals had gotten sloppy last year. We'll see what happens as he said he and Zampese had worked on his mechanics this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian55662 Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 The best thing to do to help Carson is to find the running game. If we get the running game going the play action opens up. Also that helps keep us out of third and long when the d can just come get ole cp. Utech and Perry will help improve the short to immerdiate game big time. I look for Carson to have one of his best years once he has all his weapons on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 [quote name='BengalSIS' post='688820' date='Aug 18 2008, 04:02 PM']Some points I agree with in there, but the basic fact that Palmer does not seem aware of how to move to the open hole as well as maybe he should at this point stands. Regardless of what Brat calls. See the difference in how Palmer addressed the pressure yesterday with how Fitz did it. Not saying Fitz is better QB, but he bought himself more time last night. (Comparing second qtr only, since Fitz didn't play against first string D)[/quote] Yeah his pocket presence hasn't gotten any better. But even if he doesn't get better, reducing his 7 step drops and pocket time in general with more 3 step drops/slants/drags will help keep him from getting hit or rushing passes. Teams seem to have no fear of the run game and the short pass game so its balls to the wall when the Bengals are passing. If they could make the team a little hesitant about the short stuff they probably won't be able to pursue Palmer as actively as they do and that should help him in the pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 [quote name='brian55662' post='688822' date='Aug 18 2008, 03:07 PM']The best thing to do to help Carson is to find the running game. If we get the running game going the play action opens up. Also that helps keep us out of third and long when the d can just come get ole cp. Utech and Perry will help improve the short to immerdiate game big time. I look for Carson to have one of his best years once he has all his weapons on the field.[/quote] I agree about the running game opening things up, but.... Did you see how Fitz got a little more "respect" and time after he burned em a couple times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 [quote name='BengalSIS' post='688824' date='Aug 18 2008, 04:11 PM']I agree about the running game opening things up, but.... Did you see how Fitz got a little more "respect" and time after he burned em a couple times?[/quote] Well you gotta keep in mind that Fitz was a scrambling QB since his college days. Are you advacating Palmer start running? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigris Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 ***I believe its because he's such a robot QB, and has very little cleverness/ craftiness to his game. He essentially executes everything that he is programmed to do, which is why he looks unbelievable when everything around him is working, and looks aloof/lost at other times.*** you hit it real good with #2, she's probably coming back for seconds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian55662 Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 Palmer can't do what Fitz did. Palmer makes his money and his plays with his arm. Part of the problem also is the rush came from the middle last night not allowing Carson to step up. We have to improve the running game or CP will struggle again this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerJ@w Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 [quote name='BengalSIS' post='688824' date='Aug 18 2008, 04:11 PM']I agree about the running game opening things up, but.... Did you see how Fitz got a little more "respect" and time after he burned em a couple times?[/quote] The Rams thought the same thing and now where is he? He had a couple of good games with them and poof, gone. If your OL can not give you time and your running game is not working, I don't care what QB you are, you are not going to do well, unless you scramble like Big Jen does except Big Jen can break tackles and I don't recall Carson breaking any tackles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eva4ben-gal Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 How much of Palmer's struggles last night were related to not having his top two wide receivers on the field for the majority of his snaps? The o-line didn't help much but those third and fourth tier receivers may not have been getting open or running the right routes against Detroits #1's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
top6 Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 The two scariest words in OP's post are "Drew Bledsoe." Because right now, that's who Carson reminds me of the most. Even one year ago I would have said "Troy Aikman or Peyton Manning" as the most comparable. The thing is Drew Bledsoe wasn't that bad. He just set expectations too high early in his career by leading a perennial loser to contention, and then his lack of mobility made him a good quarterback for years. But "good" wasn't good enough. And it's not good enough for Carson either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating Palmer become a running threat...or that Fitz take over. But Palmer DOES have a problem with feeling pressure if it's not right at him. And when it IS right at him, he runs backwards most times instead of side stepping a finding a hole. He works best when he has time and doesn't have to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoDeyThink Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 His fantasy value has dropped alot this season. There is something to that I guess. I just see him blowing it up again..... He's got the skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 The only "bad" years Carson has had were last season (4000+ yds, 26TD's to 20INT's) and his first season playing, where he was still cutting his teeth. I don't think there's any way Carson "regresses" further, rather, his two "bad" seasons were a function of his youth and inexperience in his first year playing, and last year we had no run game, injured oline, playing from behind constantly, poor/injured defensive play keeping the offense in pass mode... If Carson, TJ and Chad can put up the numbers they had last year in a broken season for the whole team, I imagine not only Carson but the rest of the skill guys are going to get their stats and then some this year. Sure they looked a little shaky in limited preseason time so far, but let's at least wait until the first teams get extended playing time against NO before we reach any meaningful conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-GoBengals- Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 I'm confident Carson can play. I still love him. But that doesn't mean I don't see things that concern me. Let's hope the rest of the things we need fall into place and we won't have to talk about this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scales Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Is it time to bust out the Ol Brain Type Article? LoL anyhoo... I think the Organizations Carson Palmer Standard Operating Procedure post draft and post knee, coupled with his own mental processes have fashioned him into what he is. Is that redundant? I'd like to see him boot more often, I've said it before . . . I thought he was mobile comming out of U.S.C. hell that was supposed to be one of his big PLUSES an ability to throw on the run and be accurate. Right? I'm sure you can find a draft analysis on C.P. on this world wide web thing saying such things. So I think the Bengals Fucked him up...took him out of his game . . . (most likely due to the fact that after Boomer was gone they spent High Picks on QuarterBacks and for whatever reason they didn't do much of anything except suck down bonus money.) SO with Carson they were extra careful . . . they got the Three ring Binder out and made up a plan to mold him into ROBOQB. and thats what he is. They did it. It's their fault. He might do the fall back thingy to try and protect his knee . . . cause if I remember correctly Ol C.P. was stepping into a 60 Yard Bomb to Chris Henry, you know leg locked and all that, (that point when your throwing the ball and your totally vulnerable) and here comes the Kimo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PakMan Posted August 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 BengalSis, I'm glad you see what I see. I love having Carson, but don't want to see him become a Dan Fouts, Marino, or Bledsoe. I think he's capable of being in the Manning category, which he currently is nowhere close to. Everyone saying that the preseason doesn't matter, how does that justify Carson not moving in the pocket? Not knowing how to execute an effective playaction? Is he "not showing everything" because its preseason? I think he would prefer to not get hit. I agree with whoever said he should get out of the pocket more. He NEVER does that, and he is a good athlete who can throw well on the run. Sadly, this reflects poorly on the Bengals coaching staff, namely Bratkowski and Zampese. I think Zampese is still okay because Carson knows his reads, is good with the mechanics, and is a damn good QB. But I don't like Bratkowski, never have. He doesn't put Carson or the offense in positions to succeed. I didn't intend this to be a "hate on Brat" thread, but truth is truth. BTW, whats the bunny hopping around mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who Dey Forever Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 [quote name='BengalSIS' post='688843' date='Aug 18 2008, 05:44 PM']Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating Palmer become a running threat...or that Fitz take over. But Palmer DOES have a problem with feeling pressure if it's not right at him. And when it IS right at him, he runs backwards most times instead of side stepping a finding a hole. [b]He works best when he has time and doesn't have to do that[/b].[/quote] Don't all QB's succeed when that happens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 [quote name='CJ4MVP85' post='689009' date='Aug 18 2008, 10:38 PM']Don't all QB's succeed when that happens?[/quote] Obviously. But what I was saying really was that he is deadly when he has that time, and right now, he's mediocre when he doesn't. I also agree that his accuracy actually improves when he's on the move (because then he's not sitting on his back foot). So I just wish he would move a little, and I'm not sure why he isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoMmEnT Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 As much as I hate to say it, he's just not the same QB after the knee injury.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 [quote name='CoMmEnT' post='689209' date='Aug 19 2008, 11:37 AM']As much as I hate to say it, he's just not the same QB after the knee injury....[/quote] Pretty much what everyone thinks and no one wants to say. That sort of thing screws with your head, and I think it's more mental then physical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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