Ocho Cinco on being a fan

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jason' post='723437' date='Nov 13 2008, 12:07 PM']Which is still 8 years better than us.[/quote]


But he is a Legend !!!1111

And 4 of those years, he was coaching for
what many consider one of the best owners in the NFL.

So what's his excuse?

Bill Cowher had a team that won a Super Bowl
in 2005. The next season, he was lucky (literally) to get
them to 8-8. He is a Legend !!!1111 And he coached
for what many consider a great owner, and Franchise.

So what was his excuse?

[scharm]

Dude we are 1-8. It sucks.

[|SF2|]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='723404' date='Nov 13 2008, 08:13 AM']Bill Parcells hasn`t won a playoff game in 10 years.

In 1998, the Bill Parcells led Jets went to the AFC Championship,
the next season, expectations were high for the Jets to go to the Super Bowl.
However, quarterback Vinny Testaverde ruptured his achilles tendon in the
Jets home opener and the season went downhill from there. And they started
the season 1–6. And went on to finish 8-8. Guess he sucked for not getting
more out of his team, even though he only lost his QB. Sound familiar?

With Jerry Jones as an owner, Bill Parcells led the Cowboys to an 34-30
record from 2003 through 2006. In that same span, Marvin had a 35-29 record.

Yeah, there is a whole lot of differences between them, but only when
you count the 90's.

I have said it before, if people want to harp on the past,
the most recent past has far more relevance than the distant one.[/quote]

Parcell's has only coached 6 of the last 10 years but that was a nice try with the smoke and mirrors. He did win a few playoffs games correct? Quite a bit more than Marvin. In Parcells first 4 years he had 3 playoff appearances, 4 wins and one Superbowl. I can play this game too. Marvin? Not so good.

Sorry, he is 42 games above 500 and that wasn't luck like you tend to make everything out to be.

BTW, we are not comparing Marvin and Parcells but rather Mike Brown and Parcells.

Parcells had a winning record in 8 of his last 10 seasons with one season at .500 and another at 6 wins. And Marvin?? 1 winning record since he has been here (again I place most of the blame on management, not Marvin) and will struggle mightly to make it to 6 wins.

Again, you consider being close to .500 the mark of a good team and I consider not only making the playoffs but also having success in the playoffs the mark. I just have higher expectations than you.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='SF2' post='723468' date='Nov 13 2008, 05:04 PM']Parcell's has only coached 6 of the last 10 years but that was a nice try with the smoke and mirrors. He did win a few playoffs games correct? Quite a bit more than Marvin. In Parcells first 4 years he had 3 playoff appearances, 4 wins and one Superbowl. I can play this game too. Marvin? Not so good.[/quote]

So, Parcells hasn`t won a Playoff game since 1998.
And he coached 6 out of those 10 years.
And he never won a Playoff game working for one
of the best Owners in football. So, in that regards
he is the same as Marvin. And he had a worse
record than Marvin.



[quote]Sorry, he is 42 games above 500 and that wasn't luck like you tend to make everything out to be.[/quote]

He was 4 games over .500 his last coaching stint.
And I don`t make everything out to be luck.
But I don`t see how anyone can ignore the bad luck.

[quote]BTW, we are not comparing Marvin and Parcells but rather Mike Brown and Parcells.[/quote]

Yeah, and Mike Brown as a GM, turned this team from a 2-14 team in
2002, to a 8-8 team in 2003. And that was without the help of his #1 overall pick.

Funny thing is, you have to go back to the 90's
to make Mike Brown look worse than Parcells, and Parcells
better than Mike.

Like I said, if you are going to harp on the past,
the recent past has far more relevance.

[quote]Parcells had a winning record in 8 of his last 10 seasons with one season at .500 and another at 6 wins. And Marvin?? 1 winning record since he has been here (again I place most of the blame on management, not Marvin) and will struggle mightly to make it to 6 wins.[/quote]

I thought you said we weren`t comparing Parcells to Marvin?
And who cares what Parcells did in the 90's?

[quote]Again, you consider being close to .500 the mark of a good team and I consider not only making the playoffs but also having success in the playoffs the mark. I just have higher expectations than you.[/quote]

I don`t consider it good. I just don`t consider it bad, all things considered.
And if you think having success in the Playoffs is all that matters, then
why are you dicounting Parcells having no success in the Playoffs since
1998? You sure did contradict yourself through out this whole post.

[|SF2|]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='723474' date='Nov 13 2008, 07:28 PM']So, Parcells hasn`t won a Playoff game since 1998.
And he coached 6 out of those 10 years.
And he never won a Playoff game working for one
of the best Owners in football. So, in that regards
he is the same as Marvin. And he had a worse
record than Marvin.[/quote]

I don't consider Jerry Jones a great owner. He is too hands on and creates too much drama in Dallas. Also Parcells left with many believing Jones to be the main reason. Finally, Parcells left a quality team for Wade Phillips which went 13-3 the next year. The fact that the Cowboys keep choking in the playoffs makes me smile since I hate the team, but Parcells built a consistent winner not a 1-8 team already out of the playoffs in early November.

[quote name='oldschooler' post='723474' date='Nov 13 2008, 07:28 PM']He was 4 games over .500 his last coaching stint.
And I don`t make everything out to be luck.
But I don`t see how anyone can ignore the bad luck.[/quote]

The guy went 10-6 with Quincy fucking Carter as his QB. He didn't even have anything resembling a franchise QB his first two years at Dallas. His starting QB was 90 year old Vinny Testeverde for an ENTIRE season. The next season he had the most overrated QB in history, 62 year old Drew Bledsoe as his starter. With all of this nonsense he STILL HAD A WINNING RECORD.


[quote name='oldschooler' post='723474' date='Nov 13 2008, 07:28 PM']Yeah, and Mike Brown as a GM, turned this team from a 2-14 team in
2002, to a 8-8 team in 2003. And that was without the help of his #1 overall pick.[/quote]

Yeah, and Mike Brown as a GM turned an 11-5 playoff team into a 1-8 turd two years later. I can play the same game. Parcells has only failed to win 6 games or more twice in his career. Both times it was the first year he took over a bad team. Mike Brown has done it 8 times since he took over, twice this decade and my guess is this year will be the third time. He hasn't had to take over a bad team either.

[quote name='oldschooler' post='723474' date='Nov 13 2008, 07:28 PM']Funny thing is, you have to go back to the 90's
to make Mike Brown look worse than Parcells, and Parcells
better than Mike.[/quote]

Not really. Parcells had a higher winning percentage, made the playoffs twice and did it without a franchise QB or probowl wide receivers for the most part. He drafted Tony Romo as an UNDRAFTED FA and developed him into a decent QB. He produces excellent players on both sides of the ball unlike Mike Brown. He left Dallas in great shape and the great owner Jerry Jones brought in Wade the Whale to run the team.

[quote name='oldschooler' post='723474' date='Nov 13 2008, 07:28 PM']Like I said, if you are going to harp on the past,
the recent past has far more relevance.[/quote]
The Bengals are 1-8
The Dolphins are 5-4 and they were HORRIBLE last year.
Good organizations don't go 1-8 unless they had blown up the team the year before (Dallas in the 90s). We didn't blow up anything.

[quote name='oldschooler' post='723474' date='Nov 13 2008, 07:28 PM']I thought you said we weren`t comparing Parcells to Marvin?
And who cares what Parcells did in the 90's?[/quote]
You started the Marvin v Parcells thing, not me. If we are going to compare Mike Brown to Parcells then obviously we would include the 90s.


[quote name='oldschooler' post='723474' date='Nov 13 2008, 07:28 PM']I don`t consider it good. I just don`t consider it bad, all things considered.
And if you think having success in the Playoffs is all that matters, then
why are you dicounting Parcells having no success in the Playoffs since
1998? You sure did contradict yourself through out this whole post.[/quote]

Again, I have zero love for Parcells. I think he is a pompus windbag. However, he has done a much better job building football teams over his career than Mike Brown and there are few people on this board except the obvious ones who wouldn't want Parcells to be our REAL GM ie he would make the decisisons. I didn't contradict myself anywhere and I didn't say Parcells was the best guy out there, just a whole lot better than Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis. BTW, you can't have playoff success if YOU DON'T MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. Its really a pretty simple concept to understand.

Andy Reid, The Chin, Belicheat and Tony Dungy have had more success recently than the TUNA.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='SF2' post='723561' date='Nov 14 2008, 08:37 AM']I don't consider Jerry Jones a great owner. He is too hands on and creates too much drama in Dallas. Also Parcells left with many believing Jones to be the main reason. Finally, Parcells left a quality team for Wade Phillips which went 13-3 the next year. The fact that the Cowboys keep choking in the playoffs makes me smile since I hate the team, but Parcells built a consistent winner not a 1-8 team already out of the playoffs in early November.



The guy went 10-6 with Quincy fucking Carter as his QB. He didn't even have anything resembling a franchise QB his first two years at Dallas. His starting QB was 90 year old Vinny Testeverde for an ENTIRE season. The next season he had the most overrated QB in history, 62 year old Drew Bledsoe as his starter. With all of this nonsense he STILL HAD A WINNING RECORD.




Yeah, and Mike Brown as a GM turned an 11-5 playoff team into a 1-8 turd two years later. I can play the same game. Parcells has only failed to win 6 games or more twice in his career. Both times it was the first year he took over a bad team. Mike Brown has done it 8 times since he took over, twice this decade and my guess is this year will be the third time. He hasn't had to take over a bad team either.



Not really. Parcells had a higher winning percentage, made the playoffs twice and did it without a franchise QB or probowl wide receivers for the most part. He drafted Tony Romo as an UNDRAFTED FA and developed him into a decent QB. He produces excellent players on both sides of the ball unlike Mike Brown. He left Dallas in great shape and the great owner Jerry Jones brought in Wade the Whale to run the team.


The Bengals are 1-8
The Dolphins are 5-4 and they were HORRIBLE last year.
Good organizations don't go 1-8 unless they had blown up the team the year before (Dallas in the 90s). We didn't blow up anything.


You started the Marvin v Parcells thing, not me. If we are going to compare Mike Brown to Parcells then obviously we would include the 90s.




Again, I have zero love for Parcells. I think he is a pompus windbag. However, he has done a much better job building football teams over his career than Mike Brown and there are few people on this board except the obvious ones who wouldn't want Parcells to be our REAL GM ie he would make the decisisons. I didn't contradict myself anywhere and I didn't say Parcells was the best guy out there, just a whole lot better than Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis. BTW, you can't have playoff success if YOU DON'T MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. Its really a pretty simple concept to understand.

Andy Reid, The Chin, Belicheat and Tony Dungy have had more success recently than the TUNA.[/quote]



You win Saints Fan 2. Parcells is a God, and Mike Brown is Satan.
Parcells was a better coach with the Cowboys, than Marvin was
with the Bengals in the same span of time.

Mike Brown didn`t help turn the 2-14 Bengals around.
But Parcells has helped turn the Dolphins around.

Parcells built all of those teams himself.
Although, he once bitched in a Press Conference
about "The Chef buying the groceries".

Getting to the Playoffs is all that matters.
Unless it doesn`t matter. Then winning Playoff games
and Championships are all that matters.

And Parcells DRAFTED and UNDRAFTED Tony Romo.
Wow, he really is a God.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='SF2' post='723561' date='Nov 14 2008, 08:37 AM']Good organizations don't go 1-8 unless they had blown up the team the year before (Dallas in the 90s). We didn't blow up anything.[/quote]


Yeah the Bengals didn`t blow anything up.
And the majority of the players they didn`t blow up, haven`t been injured.


The 2007 roster/ players that were on the roster last season.
The players crossed out are no longer with the team, bolded
players are players that have been injured/suspended
this season, and/or IRd this season.


RosterGlossary · ProBowl(*), 1st-team All-Pro(+), · CSV · PRE
Age Pos G GS Wt Ht College/Univ BirthDate Yrs Drafted (tm/rnd/yr)

[s]Blue Adams 28 DB 13 0 182 5-9 Cincinnati 10/15/1979 4 Detroit Lions / 7th / 220th pick / 2003[/s]

[s]Willie Anderson 32 T 7 5 340 6-5 Auburn 7/11/1975 11 Cincinnati Bengals / 1st / 10th pick / 1996[/s]

Stacy Andrews 26 T 16 14 342 6-7 Mississippi 6/2/1981 3 Cincinnati Bengals / 4th / 123rd pick / 2004

[s]Ahmad Brooks 23 LB 2 2 255 6-4 Virginia 3/14/1984 1 Cincinnati Bengals / 3rd / 2006 Supp[/s]

John Busing 24 DB 12 0 221 6-2 Miami (OH) 9/1/1983 1

Antonio Chatman 28 WR 13 1 177 5-9 Cincinnati 2/12/1979 4

Daniel Coats 23 TE 15 3 257 6-3 4/16/1984 Rook

[s]Clifton Dawson 24 RB 2 0 212 5-10 Harvard 10/8/1983 Rook [/s]

[b]De De Dorsey 23 RB 12 2 193 6-0 Lindenwood 8/1/1984 1 (placed on IR Sept. 30)[/b]

Jonathan Fanene 25 DE 14 0 290 6-3 Utah 3/19/1982 2 Cincinnati Bengals / 7th / 233rd pick / 2005

Ryan Fitzpatrick 25 QB 1 0 221 6-2 Harvard 11/24/1982 2 St. Louis Rams / 7th / 250th pick / 2005

[s]Andre Frazier 25 LB 2 0 234 6-5 Cincinnati 6/29/1982 2 [/s]

Robert Geathers 24 DE 16 16 270 6-3 Georgia 8/11/1983 3 Cincinnati Bengals / 4th / 117th pick / 2004

Eric Ghiaciuc 26 C 12 12 302 6-4 Central Michigan 5/28/1981 2 Cincinnati Bengals / 4th / 119th pick / 2005

[b]Shayne Graham 30 K 16 0 197 6-0 Virginia Tech 12/9/1977 6 (Missed 2 games this season) [/b]

[s]Skyler Green 23 WR 7 0 195 5-9 LSU 9/12/1984 1 Dallas Cowboys / 4th / 125th pick / 2006[/s]

Leon Hall 23 DB 16 10 193 5-11 Michigan 12/9/1984 Rook Cincinnati Bengals / 1st / 18th pick / 2007

[b]Chris Henry 24 WR 8 2 197 6-4 West Virginia 5/17/1983 2 Cincinnati Bengals / 3rd / 83rd pick / 2005 (played in 1 preseason game, suspended first 4 games)[/b]

[b]Glenn Holt 23 WR 16 0 195 6-1 Kentucky 7/31/1984 1 (missed one game)[/b]

[b]T.J. Houshmandzadeh* 30 WR 16 15 197 6-1 Oregon State 9/26/1977 6 Cincinnati Bengals / 7th / 204th pick / 2001 (missed all of the OTAs, all of the Preseason and Training camp[/b]

[b]Dexter Jackson 30 DB 14 14 205 6-0 Florida State 7/28/1977 8 Tampa Bay Buccaneers / 4th / 113th pick / 1999 played in 3 games, was put on IR[/b]

Rashad Jeanty 24 LB 10 7 235 6-2 Central Florida 4/17/1983 1

[b]Chad Johnson* 29 WR 16 16 192 6-1 Langston,Oregon State 1/9/1978 6 Cincinnati Bengals / 2nd / 36th pick / 2001 (Seperated shoulder in 2nd preseason game)[/b]

[b]Jeremi Johnson 27 FB 16 9 265 5-11 Indiana,Western Kentucky 9/4/1980 4 Cincinnati Bengals / 4th / 118th pick / 2003 ( Suffered injury in practice on Sept. 1 and placed Sept. 3 on Reserve/Injured list)[/b]

[s]Landon Johnson 26 LB 16 16 227 6-2 Purdue 3/13/1981 3 Cincinnati Bengals / 3rd / 96th pick / 2004[/s]

[s]Rudi Johnson 28 RB 11 9 220 5-10 Auburn 10/1/1979 6 Cincinnati Bengals / 4th / 100th pick / 2001[/s]

David Jones 22 DB 7 0 196 6-0 Wingate 9/19/1985 Rook New Orleans Saints / 5th / 145th pick / 2007

Dhani Jones 29 LB 14 9 240 6-1 Michigan 2/22/1978 6 New York Giants / 6th / 177th pick / 2000

[s]Herana-Daze Jones 25 DB 9 0 205 5-11 Indiana 4/15/1982 1 [/s]

[b]Levi Jones 28 T 15 13 310 6-5 Arizona State 8/24/1979 5 Cincinnati Bengals / 1st / 10th pick / 2002
(has knee cartlidge damage, has to get animal fat injected into his knee[/b]

[b]Johnathan Joseph 23 DB 15 14 185 5-11 South Carolina 4/16/1984 1 Cincinnati Bengals / 1st / 24th pick / 2006 (missed 2 games[/b]

Reggie Kelly 30 TE 15 15 255 6-4 Mississippi State 2/22/1977 8 Atlanta Falcons / 2nd / 42nd pick / 1999

Scott Kooistra 27 T 16 0 320 6-6 North Carolina State 10/14/1980 4 Cincinnati Bengals / 7th / 215th pick / 2003

Kyle Larson 27 P 16 0 204 6-1 Nebraska 9/2/1980 3

Nate Lawrie 26 TE 3 2 256 6-7 Yale 10/17/1981 3 Tampa Bay Buccaneers / 6th / 181st pick / 2004

[s]Roy Manning 26 LB 5 0 245 6-2 Michigan 12/4/1981 2 [/s]

[s]Lemar Marshall 31 LB 4 3 227 6-2 Michigan State 12/17/1976 5 [/s]

[s]Jim Maxwell 26 LB 3 0 242 6-4 Gardner-Webb 8/8/1981 3 [/s]

[s]Marcus Maxwell 24 WR 5 0 205 6-4 Oregon 7/8/1983 2 San Francisco 49ers / 7th / 223rd pick / 2005[/s]

[b]Corey Mays 24 LB 11 1 245 6-1 Notre Dame 11/27/1983 1 (Suffered an ankle injury in Game 4, Sept 28 vs. Cleveland, and was inactive for Games 5-8) [/b]

[s]Caleb Miller 27 LB 3 1 225 6-3 Arkansas 9/3/1980 3 Cincinnati Bengals / 3rd / 80th pick / 2004[/s]

[s]Michael Myers 31 DT-DE 15 2 300 6-2 Alabama 1/20/1976 9 Dallas Cowboys / 4th / 100th pick / 1998[/s]

[b]Nedu Ndukwe 22 DB 14 2 217 6-2 Notre Dame 3/4/1985 Rook Cincinnati Bengals / 7th / 253rd pick / 2007 ( Missed entire preseason and Game 1 due to a foot injury suffered in training camp practice)[/b]

[s]Deltha O'Neal 30 DB 16 8 194 5-11 California 1/30/1977 7 Denver Broncos / 1st / 15th pick / 2000[/s]

[b]Carson Palmer 28 QB 16 16 230 6-5 USC 12/27/1979 3 Cincinnati Bengals / 1st / 1st pick / 2003 (injured in 3rd game of the season, has missed 5 out of 9 games this season[/b]

Domata Peko 23 DT 16 16 307 6-3 Michigan State 11/27/1984 1 Cincinnati Bengals / 4th / 123rd pick / 2006

[s]Tab Perry 25 WR 2 1 229 6-3 UCLA 1/20/1982 2 Cincinnati Bengals / 6th / 190th pick / 2005[/s]

[s]Keiwan Ratliff 26 DB 3 0 185 5-11 Florida 4/19/1981 3 Cincinnati Bengals / 2nd / 49th pick / 2004[/s]

[s]Bryan Robinson 33 DT-DE 16 4 305 6-4 Fresno State 6/22/1974 10 [/s]

Jeff Rowe 23 QB 1 0 3/21/1984 Rook

Frostee Rucker 24 DE 5 0 270 6-3 USC 9/14/1983 Rook Cincinnati Bengals / 3rd / 91st pick / 2006

[b]Dan Santucci 24 G 2 0 299 6-3 Notre Dame 9/6/1983 Rook Cincinnati Bengals / 7th / 230th pick / 2007 (suffered a high ankle sprain and missed the last three preseason games... Placed August 31 on Reserved/Injured list.)[/b]

[s]Anthony Schlegel 26 LB 13 5 245 6-1 Air Force,Ohio State 3/1/1981 1 New York Jets / 3rd / 76th pick / 2006[/s]

[s]Justin Smith 28 DE 16 16 270 6-4 Missouri 9/30/1979 6 Cincinnati Bengals / 1st / 4th pick / 2001[/s]

Brad St. Louis 31 TE 16 0 247 6-3 Southwest Missouri State 8/19/1976 7 Cincinnati Bengals / 7th / 210th pick / 2000

[s]Alex Stepanovich 26 C 12 4 300 6-4 Ohio State 9/25/1981 3 Arizona Cardinals / 4th / 100th pick / 2004[/s]

[b]John Thornton 31 DT 14 14 297 6-3 West Virginia 10/2/1976 8 Tennessee Titans / 2nd / 52nd pick / 1999 (Inactive for Game 6, due to an Achilles strain suffered during practice Oct. 9)[/b]

[b]Kenny Watson 29 RB 16 5 214 5-11 Penn State 3/13/1978 5 (Inactive for Game 4 due to a hamstring pull suffered Sept. 25 in practice ... Not with team for Game 5,) [/b]

Marvin White 24 DB 15 3 199 6-1 TCU 12/5/1983 Rook Cincinnati Bengals / 4th / 114th pick / 2007

Andrew Whitworth 26 T 16 16 325 6-7 LSU 12/12/1981 1 Cincinnati Bengals / 2nd / 55th pick / 2006

Bobbie Williams 31 G 16 16 340 6-4 Arkansas 9/25/1976 6 Philadelphia Eagles / 2nd / 61st pick / 2000

[s]Madieu Williams 26 DB 13 13 193 6-1 Maryland,Towson State 10/18/1981 3 Cincinnati Bengals / 2nd / 56th pick / 2004[/s]

[s]Quincy Wilson 26 RB 1 0 225 5-9 West Virginia 4/26/1981 1 Atlanta Falcons / 7th / 219th pick / 2004[/s]


I didn`t even mention injuries to players like Odom, Utecht, Rivers, Corey Lynch,
the FB we signed to take Jeremi's place, the suspension of Brandon Johnson for 4 games,
Chris Perry that wasn`t on that roster because of injuries suffered in 2006,
or any other players that weren`t with the team last season. Just the players that weren`t part
of the blow up, that didn`t happen . . .

[Actium]

old, have you gotten a call from W to be the ghostwriter for his [i]Apologia[/i]? Because you can make shit look like the filet mignon it used to be, before it went through the GI tract.



And I mean this with the utmost respect. You have a gift.

[Actium]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='723571' date='Nov 14 2008, 10:44 AM']Yeah the Bengals didn`t blow anything up.
And the majority of the players they didn`t blow up, haven`t been injured.


The 2007 roster/ players that were on the roster last season.
The players crossed out are no longer with the team, bolded
players are players that have been injured/suspended
this season, and/or IRd this season.


RosterGlossary · ProBowl(*), 1st-team All-Pro(+), · CSV · PRE
Age Pos G GS Wt Ht College/Univ BirthDate Yrs Drafted (tm/rnd/yr)

[s]Blue Adams 28 DB 13 0 182 5-9 Cincinnati 10/15/1979 4 Detroit Lions / 7th / 220th pick / 2003[/s]

[s]Willie Anderson 32 T 7 5 340 6-5 Auburn 7/11/1975 11 Cincinnati Bengals / 1st / 10th pick / 1996[/s]

Stacy Andrews 26 T 16 14 342 6-7 Mississippi 6/2/1981 3 Cincinnati Bengals / 4th / 123rd pick / 2004

[s]Ahmad Brooks 23 LB 2 2 255 6-4 Virginia 3/14/1984 1 Cincinnati Bengals / 3rd / 2006 Supp[/s]

John Busing 24 DB 12 0 221 6-2 Miami (OH) 9/1/1983 1

Antonio Chatman 28 WR 13 1 177 5-9 Cincinnati 2/12/1979 4

Daniel Coats 23 TE 15 3 257 6-3 4/16/1984 Rook

[s]Clifton Dawson 24 RB 2 0 212 5-10 Harvard 10/8/1983 Rook [/s]

[b]De De Dorsey 23 RB 12 2 193 6-0 Lindenwood 8/1/1984 1 (placed on IR Sept. 30)[/b]

Jonathan Fanene 25 DE 14 0 290 6-3 Utah 3/19/1982 2 Cincinnati Bengals / 7th / 233rd pick / 2005

Ryan Fitzpatrick 25 QB 1 0 221 6-2 Harvard 11/24/1982 2 St. Louis Rams / 7th / 250th pick / 2005

[s]Andre Frazier 25 LB 2 0 234 6-5 Cincinnati 6/29/1982 2 [/s]

Robert Geathers 24 DE 16 16 270 6-3 Georgia 8/11/1983 3 Cincinnati Bengals / 4th / 117th pick / 2004

Eric Ghiaciuc 26 C 12 12 302 6-4 Central Michigan 5/28/1981 2 Cincinnati Bengals / 4th / 119th pick / 2005

[b]Shayne Graham 30 K 16 0 197 6-0 Virginia Tech 12/9/1977 6 (Missed 2 games this season) [/b]

[s]Skyler Green 23 WR 7 0 195 5-9 LSU 9/12/1984 1 Dallas Cowboys / 4th / 125th pick / 2006[/s]

Leon Hall 23 DB 16 10 193 5-11 Michigan 12/9/1984 Rook Cincinnati Bengals / 1st / 18th pick / 2007

[b]Chris Henry 24 WR 8 2 197 6-4 West Virginia 5/17/1983 2 Cincinnati Bengals / 3rd / 83rd pick / 2005 (played in 1 preseason game, suspended first 4 games)[/b]

[b]Glenn Holt 23 WR 16 0 195 6-1 Kentucky 7/31/1984 1 (missed one game)[/b]

[b]T.J. Houshmandzadeh* 30 WR 16 15 197 6-1 Oregon State 9/26/1977 6 Cincinnati Bengals / 7th / 204th pick / 2001 (missed all of the OTAs, all of the Preseason and Training camp[/b]

[b]Dexter Jackson 30 DB 14 14 205 6-0 Florida State 7/28/1977 8 Tampa Bay Buccaneers / 4th / 113th pick / 1999 played in 3 games, was put on IR[/b]

Rashad Jeanty 24 LB 10 7 235 6-2 Central Florida 4/17/1983 1

[b]Chad Johnson* 29 WR 16 16 192 6-1 Langston,Oregon State 1/9/1978 6 Cincinnati Bengals / 2nd / 36th pick / 2001 (Seperated shoulder in 2nd preseason game)[/b]

[b]Jeremi Johnson 27 FB 16 9 265 5-11 Indiana,Western Kentucky 9/4/1980 4 Cincinnati Bengals / 4th / 118th pick / 2003 ( Suffered injury in practice on Sept. 1 and placed Sept. 3 on Reserve/Injured list)[/b]

[s]Landon Johnson 26 LB 16 16 227 6-2 Purdue 3/13/1981 3 Cincinnati Bengals / 3rd / 96th pick / 2004[/s]

[s]Rudi Johnson 28 RB 11 9 220 5-10 Auburn 10/1/1979 6 Cincinnati Bengals / 4th / 100th pick / 2001[/s]

David Jones 22 DB 7 0 196 6-0 Wingate 9/19/1985 Rook New Orleans Saints / 5th / 145th pick / 2007

Dhani Jones 29 LB 14 9 240 6-1 Michigan 2/22/1978 6 New York Giants / 6th / 177th pick / 2000

[s]Herana-Daze Jones 25 DB 9 0 205 5-11 Indiana 4/15/1982 1 [/s]

[b]Levi Jones 28 T 15 13 310 6-5 Arizona State 8/24/1979 5 Cincinnati Bengals / 1st / 10th pick / 2002
(has knee cartlidge damage, has to get animal fat injected into his knee[/b]

[b]Johnathan Joseph 23 DB 15 14 185 5-11 South Carolina 4/16/1984 1 Cincinnati Bengals / 1st / 24th pick / 2006 (missed 2 games[/b]

Reggie Kelly 30 TE 15 15 255 6-4 Mississippi State 2/22/1977 8 Atlanta Falcons / 2nd / 42nd pick / 1999

Scott Kooistra 27 T 16 0 320 6-6 North Carolina State 10/14/1980 4 Cincinnati Bengals / 7th / 215th pick / 2003

Kyle Larson 27 P 16 0 204 6-1 Nebraska 9/2/1980 3

Nate Lawrie 26 TE 3 2 256 6-7 Yale 10/17/1981 3 Tampa Bay Buccaneers / 6th / 181st pick / 2004

[s]Roy Manning 26 LB 5 0 245 6-2 Michigan 12/4/1981 2 [/s]

[s]Lemar Marshall 31 LB 4 3 227 6-2 Michigan State 12/17/1976 5 [/s]

[s]Jim Maxwell 26 LB 3 0 242 6-4 Gardner-Webb 8/8/1981 3 [/s]

[s]Marcus Maxwell 24 WR 5 0 205 6-4 Oregon 7/8/1983 2 San Francisco 49ers / 7th / 223rd pick / 2005[/s]

[b]Corey Mays 24 LB 11 1 245 6-1 Notre Dame 11/27/1983 1 (Suffered an ankle injury in Game 4, Sept 28 vs. Cleveland, and was inactive for Games 5-8) [/b]

[s]Caleb Miller 27 LB 3 1 225 6-3 Arkansas 9/3/1980 3 Cincinnati Bengals / 3rd / 80th pick / 2004[/s]

[s]Michael Myers 31 DT-DE 15 2 300 6-2 Alabama 1/20/1976 9 Dallas Cowboys / 4th / 100th pick / 1998[/s]

[b]Nedu Ndukwe 22 DB 14 2 217 6-2 Notre Dame 3/4/1985 Rook Cincinnati Bengals / 7th / 253rd pick / 2007 ( Missed entire preseason and Game 1 due to a foot injury suffered in training camp practice)[/b]

[s]Deltha O'Neal 30 DB 16 8 194 5-11 California 1/30/1977 7 Denver Broncos / 1st / 15th pick / 2000[/s]

[b]Carson Palmer 28 QB 16 16 230 6-5 USC 12/27/1979 3 Cincinnati Bengals / 1st / 1st pick / 2003 (injured in 3rd game of the season, has missed 5 out of 9 games this season[/b]

Domata Peko 23 DT 16 16 307 6-3 Michigan State 11/27/1984 1 Cincinnati Bengals / 4th / 123rd pick / 2006

[s]Tab Perry 25 WR 2 1 229 6-3 UCLA 1/20/1982 2 Cincinnati Bengals / 6th / 190th pick / 2005[/s]

[s]Keiwan Ratliff 26 DB 3 0 185 5-11 Florida 4/19/1981 3 Cincinnati Bengals / 2nd / 49th pick / 2004[/s]

[s]Bryan Robinson 33 DT-DE 16 4 305 6-4 Fresno State 6/22/1974 10 [/s]

Jeff Rowe 23 QB 1 0 3/21/1984 Rook

Frostee Rucker 24 DE 5 0 270 6-3 USC 9/14/1983 Rook Cincinnati Bengals / 3rd / 91st pick / 2006

[b]Dan Santucci 24 G 2 0 299 6-3 Notre Dame 9/6/1983 Rook Cincinnati Bengals / 7th / 230th pick / 2007 (suffered a high ankle sprain and missed the last three preseason games... Placed August 31 on Reserved/Injured list.)[/b]

[s]Anthony Schlegel 26 LB 13 5 245 6-1 Air Force,Ohio State 3/1/1981 1 New York Jets / 3rd / 76th pick / 2006[/s]

[s]Justin Smith 28 DE 16 16 270 6-4 Missouri 9/30/1979 6 Cincinnati Bengals / 1st / 4th pick / 2001[/s]

Brad St. Louis 31 TE 16 0 247 6-3 Southwest Missouri State 8/19/1976 7 Cincinnati Bengals / 7th / 210th pick / 2000

[s]Alex Stepanovich 26 C 12 4 300 6-4 Ohio State 9/25/1981 3 Arizona Cardinals / 4th / 100th pick / 2004[/s]

[b]John Thornton 31 DT 14 14 297 6-3 West Virginia 10/2/1976 8 Tennessee Titans / 2nd / 52nd pick / 1999 (Inactive for Game 6, due to an Achilles strain suffered during practice Oct. 9)[/b]

[b]Kenny Watson 29 RB 16 5 214 5-11 Penn State 3/13/1978 5 (Inactive for Game 4 due to a hamstring pull suffered Sept. 25 in practice ... Not with team for Game 5,) [/b]

Marvin White 24 DB 15 3 199 6-1 TCU 12/5/1983 Rook Cincinnati Bengals / 4th / 114th pick / 2007

Andrew Whitworth 26 T 16 16 325 6-7 LSU 12/12/1981 1 Cincinnati Bengals / 2nd / 55th pick / 2006

Bobbie Williams 31 G 16 16 340 6-4 Arkansas 9/25/1976 6 Philadelphia Eagles / 2nd / 61st pick / 2000

[s]Madieu Williams 26 DB 13 13 193 6-1 Maryland,Towson State 10/18/1981 3 Cincinnati Bengals / 2nd / 56th pick / 2004[/s]

[s]Quincy Wilson 26 RB 1 0 225 5-9 West Virginia 4/26/1981 1 Atlanta Falcons / 7th / 219th pick / 2004[/s]


I didn`t even mention injuries to players like Odom, Utecht, Rivers, Corey Lynch,
the FB we signed to take Jeremi's place, the suspension of Brandon Johnson for 4 games,
Chris Perry that wasn`t on that roster because of injuries suffered in 2006,
or any other players that weren`t with the team last season. Just the players that weren`t part
of the blow up, that didn`t happen . . .[/quote]

But WHY are there so many injuries? There are so many, year in and year out, that it becomes hard to believe it is just bad luck, but rather a result of poor conditioning and technique, which falls on the management/coaches.

[Bgal]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='723335' date='Nov 12 2008, 06:08 PM']Also, we're a joke to who?
People that are too lazy to look beyond the record?
People that bash on the Bengals regardless of their record?[/quote]

The record is what it is. I would like the team to be able to actually beat a good team some day. I'm not surprised there are so many excuses floating around on this board. Bengals' fans have to be good at making excuses and looking for reasons.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='723571' date='Nov 14 2008, 09:44 AM']Yeah the Bengals didn`t blow anything up.
And the majority of the players they didn`t blow up, haven`t been injured.

<snip>

I didn`t even mention injuries to players like Odom, Utecht, Rivers, Corey Lynch,
the FB we signed to take Jeremi's place, the suspension of Brandon Johnson for 4 games,
Chris Perry that wasn`t on that roster because of injuries suffered in 2006,
or any other players that weren`t with the team last season. Just the players that weren`t part
of the blow up, that didn`t happen . . .[/quote]



And one more thing, the players left from the list above
that weren`t part of the blow up, that didn`t happen,
that haven`t been injured or crossed out:

John Busing re-signed with Cincinnati on Oct. 28 2008
Jeff Rowe rejoined Bengals on Oct. 17, signed to practice squad
Nate Lawrie signed from the practice squad Oct 17
David Jones inactive 9 games in 2007
Dhani Jones signed as a street free agent in 2007


10 starters from last season's team haven`t been
injured or suspended this season.

Those players are:
Stacy Andrews
Robert Geathers
Eric Ghiaciuc
Leon Hall
Rashad Jeanty
Dhani Jones
Reggie Kelly
Domata Peko
Andrew Whitworth
Bobbie Williams

So that means 12 starters from last season
have either been injured, or were part of a
blow up that didn`t happen. Not to mention
depth that has been injured, or part of a
blow up that didn`t happen. Yeah, no blow
up. No reason for the depth to not be there, ect ect ect





[quote name='Actium' post='723573' date='Nov 14 2008, 09:50 AM']old, have you gotten a call from W to be the ghostwriter for his [i]Apologia[/i]? Because you can make shit look like the filet mignon it used to be, before it went through the GI tract.



And I mean this with the utmost respect. You have a gift.[/quote]


Thanks. I think.

[quote name='Actium' post='723574' date='Nov 14 2008, 09:58 AM']But WHY are there so many injuries? There are so many, year in and year out, that it becomes hard to believe it is just bad luck, but rather a result of poor conditioning and technique, which falls on the management/coaches.[/quote]


If I knew the answer to that, I would be sure
to send that info to the Bengals.

But every team has to deal with injuries.
At least, that's what I hear all the time when
I say something about the Bengals and injuries.


[quote name='Bgal' post='723581' date='Nov 14 2008, 10:14 AM']I'm not surprised there are so many excuses floating around on this board. Bengals' fans have to be good at making excuses and looking for reasons.[/quote]

I am not making excuses. I have been posting facts.
Which I call reasons. You say Bengals fans are good
at looking for reasons, I disagree. They are good
at blaming one person. And not looking for reasons
as to why the Bengals record is what it is. Just blame
Mike Brown. The Bengals sucked for 12 years, their
record looks like it did back then, it MUST be all of his fault.

I have pointed out how Bill Cowher had a Super Bowl
team, and luckily, thanks to a kick that Shayne Graham
makes 99 out of 100 times, got his team to go 8-8.

I have pointed out how Bill Parcells had a team that
was favored to make the Super Bowl in 1999. But
his QB went down, and they struggled to go 8-8,
after starting 1-6.

I have pointed out how teams like the Colts and
Packers, that were both some of the youngest
teams in the NFL last season, but also some of
the healthiest, are struggling this season because
of injuries.

I read a headline today that says "Romo can cure what ails Cowboys"

Hell, the Patriots went 18-1 last season. They lose their QB,
have a few key injuries like to their RB, LB and Safety,
and now they are 6-4. While playing against the NFC
and AFC West divisions.

But if any and all of that happens to the Bengals, even after a 7-9
season, and an offseason where they blew it all up (which by the way didn`t happen),
that also has played the toughest schedule in the NFL.
It is just excuses. It is unacceptable. It is all Mike Brown's fault ect.

It makes no sense to me.

[|SF2|]

Old,

I agree. I think the organization did blow up this team after 2007. They obviously figured out that the personnel they had drafted and brought in to play were not up to the task. That and some of the stalwarts were getting old and were cancers. Fine. I believe that.

Here are my questions:

1. How did we get to the point that our team had so many sup par players starting in the first place? Where were the replacements? Why do so many of our best players become cancers?

2. If this is a rebuilding year, why not trade Chad when he wanted out? If we are blowing up the team, might as well get rid of the FUSE.

3. If you look at your list, you will see it is full of 1st thru 4th round picks we never developed or never lived up to expectations. That is a recurring theme on this team. We don't develop players PARTICULARLY defensive players. We never seem to have a great player on defense, ever.

4. And as always, why do we always seem to have the most injuries in the NFL. Only the Patriots have as many key injuries as us but then again they are 5-3 and fighting for a playoff spot in spite of their QB never having started in college and most of their defense injured. Just a different organization.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='SF2' post='723617' date='Nov 14 2008, 03:15 PM']2. If this is a rebuilding year, why not trade Chad when he wanted out? If we are blowing up the team, might as well get rid of the FUSE.[/quote]


IMO, this is a sticking point for me. IMO I think Marvin probably wanted to trade Chad and have 2008 be a rebuilding year of sorts (hence the "blow it up" comments), using the extra picks on defense and maybe the oline. Mike wouldn't take the cap hit though.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='SF2' post='723617' date='Nov 14 2008, 02:15 PM']Old,

I agree. I think the organization did blow up this team after 2007. They obviously figured out that the personnel they had drafted and brought in to play were not up to the task. That and some of the stalwarts were getting old and were cancers. Fine. I believe that.

Here are my questions:

1. How did we get to the point that our team had so many sup par players starting in the first place? Where were the replacements? Why do so many of our best players become cancers?[/quote]


Willie wouldn`t practice. He felt like he didn`t have to.
And was entitled not to. He also was setting a bad example
in more ways than one, by his actions and words.

O'Neal felt like he should have gotten a new contract
after he went to the Pro Bowl. Many believe he let
his dissatisfaction over that spill over onto the field.
And the problem became worse with the drafting of Hall and Joseph.

Rudi was pissed that the team kept trying to draft his replacement.
He felt slighted by the team. Some believe that he used his hamstring
injury as an excuse not to play or practice starting in 2007 when
the team started 2-6. And carried it over into this preseason.

[quote]2. If this is a rebuilding year, why not trade Chad when he wanted out? If we are blowing up the team, might as well get rid of the FUSE.[/quote]


I think mostly, they didn`t want to take the cap hit.
But they also didn`t want to give in to him.
They were sending a message that you can`t sign
a huge contract, collect most of the money up
front, I think Chad collected over $16 million
from the team between 2006 and 2007, then whine,
bitch and show your ass nationally, and get your way
to get more money again. Because that is what it was
all about, getting another new contract.



[quote]3. If you look at your list, you will see it is full of 1st thru 4th round picks we never developed or never lived up to expectations. That is a recurring theme on this team. We don't develop players PARTICULARLY defensive players. We never seem to have a great player on defense, ever.[/quote]

Geathers, Peko, Andrews, Whitworth, Henry, Joseph, Hall,
Ghiaciuc, Levi, Chad, Carson and Rucker were all drafted between those rounds.

[quote]4. And as always, why do we always seem to have the most injuries in the NFL. Only the Patriots have as many key injuries as us but then again they are 5-3 and fighting for a playoff spot in spite of their QB never having started in college and most of their defense injured. Just a different organization.[/quote]

I don`t know. I don`t think hiring more trainers would hurt.
But they wouldn`t have helped in Carson's case.

Also, the Patriots are 6-4. And have played one of the easiest
schedules in the NFL.


And what does it say about the Patriots that the backup
to their MVP QB, was a QB that hadn`t started since High School?
How come people don`t bash on them for that?

[scharm]

Youth and Injuries are factors, but it takes no effort to have young players or hurt players and be 1-8.

Any team can have young players or a bunch of injured players and be a horrible football team which is exactly what 1-8 represents.

When discussing blame and assignment of blame that's a pointless activity without considering 2009 and 2010 season and what changes could do to make them better.

IMO, having a young roster and a roster that suffered injuries doesn't give me comfort that better days are ahead while the team is sporting a 1-8 record. Anyone could do it. Any coach could do it.

How about overcoming some of these issues that every team faces in some sort or fashion and get some Ws up on the board? There is just no way in hell if this team finishes up with 2,3,4 wins that you could actually realistically expect a run at playoffs in 09 without a major change.

That was focused on the current season. I don't get a level of comfort of it being turned around when Marvin had prime opportunities to bring another playoff season to Cincinnati and choked it away in the 2006/2007 seasons.

So yeah they blew the team up. Congrats on the current 1-8 record. Anyone could do it.
That doesn't come close to why people should support the return of the same coach overseeing it.

[oldschooler]

Scharm, the Bengals have played the toughest schedule in the NFL.

They have played 6 teams that are a combined 41-14. Even if you
take away their wins against the Bengals, they are still 35-14.
Just those 6 teams. In the Dolphins 5 wins, the teams they
played are a combined 22-24. In the Patriots 6 wins, the teams
they played are a combined 22-33.

[|Bengal Migration|]

[quote name='SF2' post='723617' date='Nov 15 2008, 06:15 AM']2. If this is a rebuilding year, why not trade Chad when he wanted out? If we are blowing up the team, might as well get rid of the FUSE.[/quote]

+1

[oldschooler]

[quote name='KangarWhoDey' post='723697' date='Nov 15 2008, 07:55 AM']+1 [/quote]



[quote name='oldschooler' post='723688' date='Nov 15 2008, 07:12 AM']I think mostly, they didn`t want to take the cap hit.
But they also didn`t want to give in to him.
They were sending a message that you can`t sign
a huge contract, collect most of the money up
front, I think Chad collected over $16 million
from the team between 2006 and 2007, then whine,
bitch and show your ass nationally, and get your way
to get more money again. Because that is what it was
all about, getting another new contract.[/quote]

[jjvolt]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='723258' date='Nov 12 2008, 02:39 PM']considering how much of a fool ochco tardo is... i guess my side of the argument is proven.[/quote]


wow. you should feel like the "tardo". your basically denying the fact that parcells and his new staff have turned around the dolphins just because someone with a checkered past states as much.

so if chris henry says the 9-0 titans are a good team you'd argue with that, I suppose.

mike brown loves you, GO.

[jjvolt]

[quote name='turningpoint' post='723324' date='Nov 12 2008, 04:58 PM']WOW seriously??


hello guys rember the 2003 bengals? in 2002 we were the joke of the league we get the #1 over all pick and hey a bunch of decent draft picks for being at the top of the draft round, plus a competent QB(Kitna) = 8-8.

Dolphins 2007 jokes of the league, get 1st overall pick get a bunch of good draft picks plus 2 pro-bowl RB's back, plus a competent QB(Pennington) = 5-4 so far.

I clearly don't see the difference in what Mike B did in 2003 and what Parcells is doing in the present.


SHUTUP![/quote]



OOOOOOOOOO MMMMMMMMMMMM GGGGGGGGG!!!!

tell me you're not serious!

comparing mike brown to bill parcells is like comparing albert einstien to shemp howard.


you people are seriously entertaining!

[|Bengal Migration|]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='723698' date='Nov 15 2008, 11:58 PM'][/quote]
I know.. I know.. But I wanted to trade the piece of shit then, when he was healthy. Now? Guess.

I admire your stamina, old. I for one, am tired of defending mediocrity. The trolls can go fuck themselves, as always, but seriously, there have been some shitty decisions by this club in recent seasons.

I refuse to laundry list them all. Thats' not me. I'm not looking to piss on the faithful. I just think an honest tally of the decisions made by this team in recent years shows that they have been pretty poor.

I'm not giving up my season tickets. I'm still coming home to visit for a game next fall like it was clockwork.

*I won't be spending one cent inside the stadium while I'm there* that's my little statement to ownership. as pitiful of a statement as it is.

I'm just tired. My orange colored glasses are off. That doesn't mean I feel the need to be a dick about it. But I'm tired of defending ownership, at the very least. And please don't mention the OC.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='KangarWhoDey' post='723705' date='Nov 15 2008, 08:15 AM']I know.. I know.. But I wanted to trade the piece of shit then, when he was healthy. Now? Guess.

I admire your stamina, old. I for one, am tired of defending mediocrity. The trolls can go fuck themselves, as always, but seriously, there have been some shitty decisions by this club in recent seasons.

I refuse to laundry list them all. Thats' not me. I'm not looking to piss on the faithful. I just think an honest tally of the decisions made by this team in recent years shows that they have been pretty poor.

I'm not giving up my season tickets. I'm still coming home to visit for a game next fall like it was clockwork.

*I won't be spending one cent inside the stadium while I'm there* that's my little statement to ownership. as pitiful of a statement as it is.

I'm just tired. My orange colored glasses are off. That doesn't mean I feel the need to be a dick about it. But I'm tired of defending ownership, at the very least. And please don't mention the OC. [/quote]



I just don`t think the team could have absobed the cap hit,
AND had to pay mutiple first round picks this season AND
next season. Plus, like I said, Chad had already been paid
a good chunk of the contract that he had signed back in 2006.
Why let him bank that money, and get his way to get more
money, at the team's expense? Also, Chad is a proven talent.
The same can`t be said for draft picks. No matter how high
they were drafted, by any team.

I am not defending mediocrity. I am no more pleased with
this season than anyone. Believe me, I had a pretty rough
start to the year, personally, and was hoping for good thing
s from the Bengals, to help ease that pain. I just see reasons for it.
I think the growing pains will pay off in the long run. I think Marvin, Mike
and the others all learned a lot from the past few seasons.
That's why they "blew it up".

Some teams blew it all up a few years back, the Titans for one,
and look at where they are now. Keep the faith. I think there
is a bright future ahead, if you look that way, instead of towards
the dark past.

[Randle P McMurphy]

I've been looking for the bright future ahead for 18-19 years now. Doing the same thing
over and over again and expecting different results = insanity.

Sure one of these days it'll come. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Randle P McMurphy' post='723731' date='Nov 15 2008, 10:45 AM']I've been looking for the bright future ahead for 18-19 years now. Doing the same thing
over and over again and expecting different results = insanity.

Sure one of these days it'll come. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.[/quote]



Despite all of the rebuilding, all of the draft picks and other
key players that were being counted on being injured,
despite all of the off the field shit, this team has been in
Playoff contention or made the Playoffs, 3 out of the last 6 years.

And I really wish people would stop trying to tie this
team, to teams of more than 10 years ago.
There isn't a player on this team that was
even playing in the NFL over ten years ago.

Marvin wasn`t the Head Coach 10 years ago.
Carson Palmer was 18 years old 10 years ago.
Bringing up the distant past really does nothing
but show your disdain for Mike Brown. Really,
what other purpose does it have when talking
about the future?

[Randle P McMurphy]

Mike Brown is going to be involved in the future of this team right? Unless he croaks or
sells the team so there is your purpose when talking about the future. Doesnt matter who
the coach is. Pretty much the same results. The only difference with Marvin as the coach
is we've actually made the playoffs ONCE. Been in the hunt late in December a couple times.
Big deal.

Am I asking too much as a fan to do better than that over basically a 20 year period?
I dont know about you but I dont think that's asking too much that's all.