Pope's throne getting a little hot

[Squirrlnutz]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/world/europe/13pope.html?pagewanted=1

Over/under on total preists that molested boys and were just shuffled off to another flock of awaiting innocent victims under Ratzinger's watch?

Since its early in this scandal I'll put the O/U at 5. But I wouldn't be surprised to see the number balloon over the coming year.

Fucking disgusting...and this guy is supposed to be the closest human to god on the entire planet?

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' date='17 March 2010 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1268844906' post='871164']
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/world/europe/13pope.html?pagewanted=1

Over/under on total preists that molested boys and were just shuffled off to another flock of awaiting innocent victims under Ratzinger's watch?

Since its early in this scandal I'll put the O/U at 5. But I wouldn't be surprised to see the number balloon over the coming year.

Fucking disgusting...and this guy is supposed to be the closest human to god on the entire planet?
[/quote]
Just to help you properly assess the situation, as any good scientist would do, [url="http://www.slate.com/id/2248521/pagenum/all/"]I bring this article to your attention[/url], which offers more insight into the dynamics of a very sad and tragic dysfunction within the Catholic Church. And, in your scientific response to this, make sure to mention that I capitalized Catholic and Church.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='23 March 2010 - 11:04 AM' timestamp='1269356664' post='872435']
Just to help you properly assess the situation, as any good scientist would do, [url="http://www.slate.com/id/2248521/pagenum/all/"]I bring this article to your attention[/url], which offers more insight into the dynamics of a very sad and tragic dysfunction within the Catholic Church. And, in your scientific response to this, make sure to mention that I capitalized Catholic and Church.
[/quote]







Ehh, I don't see that as the Pope taking the high road as much as the "I have to do something to save-face" road.

http://www.michaelnugent.com/2010/03/21/popes-letter-protects-church-not-its-victims/

[CTBengalsFan]

The pope's letter was weak.

Send these priests to prison, send the bishops who knowingly covered up to prison and then I might believe there's some contrition. In today's world, no one is above human law, not even those who claim to be the vicars of Christ.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='CTBengalsFan' date='23 March 2010 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1269362123' post='872460']
The pope's letter was weak.

Send these priests to prison, send the bishops who knowingly covered up to prison and then I might believe there's some contrition. In today's world, no one is above human law, not even those who claim to be the vicars of Christ.
[/quote]

I completely agree. There should be no protection offered by the Church to priests/bishops, etc that took advantage of their positions of immutable trust only to have them violate that trust in the worst possible way(s), whether it be through engaging in actual molestation or the coverup thereof.

[Xombie]

[quote name='Bunghole' date='23 March 2010 - 01:40 PM' timestamp='1269366013' post='872480']
I completely agree. There should be no protection offered by the Church to priests/bishops, etc that took advantage of their positions of immutable trust only to have them violate that trust in the worst possible way(s), whether it be through engaging in actual molestation or the coverup thereof.
[/quote]



Youtube Christopher Titus' routine on what should be done with pedder priests.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' date='23 March 2010 - 12:19 PM' timestamp='1269361171' post='872457']
Ehh, I don't see that as the Pope taking the high road as much as the "I have to do something to save-face" road.

http://www.michaelnugent.com/2010/03/21/popes-letter-protects-church-not-its-victims/
[/quote]
Of course you don't. That's because you aren't interested in truly understanding. You are just seeking to confirm a bias. To really understand this sad shit, and the nuances associated with a long history of contention between where secular law takes over from what the Catholic Church considers to be matter for canon law, you would have to be willing to review the situation in some depth before you came to conclusions. Or, in other words, epistemology 101--be able to entertain competing hypotheses within one's mind such that one is capable of comparing and contrasting a variety of perspectives regarding a contentious issue. (Any contentious issue.)

Some months ago a fairly new acquaintance came up to me and asked: "How did you get to be so smart?" I told him that I wasn't really that smart but if I had anything going for me, it was this: I am very reluctant to be content with the first plausible explanation or opinion I encounter on any intricate body of knowledge, especially those which tend to confirm a normative belief or feeling I might have.

Too many people do that, imo. It's intellectual laziness which often relates to a corresponding moral laziness, too. And it's those people who are habitual in this manner who tend to fuck the world up.

[sois]

Where the hell in the bible is the position of Pope?

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='23 March 2010 - 02:41 PM' timestamp='1269369718' post='872501']
Of course you don't. That's because you aren't interested in truly understanding. You are just seeking to confirm a bias. To really understand this sad shit, and the nuances associated with a long history of contention between where secular law takes over from what the Catholic Church considers to be matter for canon law, you would have to be willing to review the situation in some depth before you came to conclusions. Or, in other words, epistemology 101--be able to entertain competing hypotheses within one's mind such that one is capable of comparing and contrasting a variety of perspectives regarding a contentious issue. (Any contentious issue.)

Some months ago a fairly new acquaintance came up to me and asked: "How did you get to be so smart?" I told him that I wasn't really that smart but if I had anything going for me, it was this: I am very reluctant to be content with the first plausible explanation or opinion I encounter on any intricate body of knowledge, especially those which tend to confirm a normative belief or feeling I might have.

Too many people do that, imo. It's intellectual laziness which often relates to a corresponding moral laziness, too. And it's those people who are habitual in this manner who tend to fuck the world up.
[/quote]

Understanding what? What have [u]you assumed[/u] I am not interested in truly understanding?

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='sois' date='23 March 2010 - 02:42 PM' timestamp='1269369767' post='872502']
Where the hell in the bible is the position of Pope?
[/quote]

It's in the same passage that stipulates women cannot be ordained, and that priests can't marry, the blue-balled bastards.

[sois]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' date='23 March 2010 - 01:24 PM' timestamp='1269375852' post='872530']
It's in the same passage that stipulates women cannot be ordained, and that priests can't marry, the blue-balled bastards.
[/quote]

Gotcha. Somewhere in the back. That is my favorite place to reference everything

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='sois' date='23 March 2010 - 01:40 PM' timestamp='1269376847' post='872536']
Gotcha. Somewhere in the back. That is my favorite place to reference everything
[/quote]


The part about stoning disobedient children, adulterers, and people who labor during the sabbath are in the front...

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' date='23 March 2010 - 03:42 PM' timestamp='1269373326' post='872521']
Understanding what? What have [u]you assumed[/u] I am not interested in truly understanding?
[/quote]
Well, I'll say this, at least you are consistently reductivist thinker. It's a simple, declarative sentence. No assumptions involved. Now, reconsider the term, "understanding," in that light--even though the remainder of my previous post made that perfectly clear.

[CatScratchFever]

[quote name='sois' date='23 March 2010 - 02:42 PM' timestamp='1269369767' post='872502']
Where the hell in the bible is the position of Pope?
[/quote]
Nowhere specifically. But neither are priest, minister, bishop, rabbi, nun, or monk defined. The Catholic Church's religious orders are based in tradition, not in scripture. Every church has a leaders and a hierarchy. Why pick on Catholics for it?
In Catholic tradition, the office of Pope began with St. Peter as the first Bishop of Rome. In the early Church, all bishops were technically ranked equally, but the Bishop of Rome eventually grew to command a higher status due to it's lineage being linked directly back to St. Peter.

[CTBengalsFan]

[quote name='CatScratchFever' date='23 March 2010 - 11:24 PM' timestamp='1269401095' post='872641']
Every church has a leaders and a hierarchy. Why pick on Catholics for it?
[/quote]

Probably because they've wielded the most power throughout the centuries.

[sois]

[quote name='CatScratchFever' date='23 March 2010 - 08:24 PM' timestamp='1269401095' post='872641']
Nowhere specifically. But neither are priest, minister, bishop, rabbi, nun, or monk defined. The Catholic Church's religious orders are based in tradition, not in scripture. [b]Every church has a leaders and a hierarchy.[/b] Why pick on Catholics for it?
In Catholic tradition, the office of Pope began with St. Peter as the first Bishop of Rome. In the early Church, all bishops were technically ranked equally, but the Bishop of Rome eventually grew to command a higher status due to it's lineage being linked directly back to St. Peter.
[/quote]

I am not picking on Catholics, I think all churches that have a hierarchy are stupid. I know it says in the bible no man shall be called Father. So anyone who does that IS THE DEVIL. I know it says that somewhere... somewhere in the back I think.

[CatScratchFever]

[quote name='CTBengalsFan' date='23 March 2010 - 11:36 PM' timestamp='1269401801' post='872642']
Probably because they've wielded the most power throughout the centuries.
[/quote]

That's a pretty good reason to pick on them in general, but not for having a leadership structure.

[quote name='sois' date='24 March 2010 - 12:05 AM' timestamp='1269403542' post='872643']
I am not picking on Catholics, I think all churches that have a hierarchy are stupid. I know it says in the bible no man shall be called Father. So anyone who does that IS THE DEVIL. I know it says that somewhere... somewhere in the back I think.
[/quote]
Name for me a church that doesn't have a hierarchy. I think that's one thing that defines a church.

Actually you were picking on Catholics by specifically referring to the Pope. But that's beside the point.

[sois]

[quote name='CatScratchFever' date='24 March 2010 - 08:35 AM' timestamp='1269444947' post='872705']
That's a pretty good reason to pick on them in general, but not for having a leadership structure.


Name for me a church that doesn't have a hierarchy. I think that's one thing that defines a church.

Actually you were picking on Catholics by specifically referring to the Pope. But that's beside the point.
[/quote]

If all churches have a hierarchy, they're all stupid. That's why I don't go. Jesus sat out in the middle of no where fields and talked to people.

I will start my own church: Don't Be a D-Bag Church. 15 minutes (online option available) in and out, no priests deacons bishops fathers popes cardinals reverends etc, no nonsense, no heavy metal band playing shitty Christian rock, no armani suits, no chalices, no hierarchy, no hymns, and most importantly: NO SALARY FOR ANY CHURCH "LEADERS".

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='23 March 2010 - 07:25 PM' timestamp='1269386719' post='872584']
Well, I'll say this, at least you are consistently reductivist thinker. It's a simple, declarative sentence. No assumptions involved. Now, reconsider the term, "understanding," in that light--even though the remainder of my previous post made that perfectly clear.
[/quote]








I can't seem to see the bullet point that makes a thorough understanding of the dynamic relationship between church law and secular law neccessary to condem actions that I see as a human rights issue. I did not get that you meant "understanding" and thought you meant "understanding this situation."

[CatScratchFever]

[quote name='sois' date='24 March 2010 - 11:42 AM' timestamp='1269445365' post='872708']
If all churches have a hierarchy, they're all stupid. That's why I don't go. Jesus sat out in the middle of no where fields and talked to people.

I will start my own church: Don't Be a D-Bag Church. 15 minutes (online option available) in and out, no priests deacons bishops fathers popes cardinals reverends etc, no nonsense, no heavy metal band playing shitty Christian rock, no armani suits, no chalices, no hierarchy, no hymns, and most importantly: NO SALARY FOR ANY CHURCH "LEADERS".
[/quote]
You know damn well you'd have Stryper play your services if you could.

And by the way, a hierarchy can consist of one person if that one person is the leader of the group. In your case, you. Thus, your religion is stupid, too. Even worse because you'll have no band (no hymns = no music = no band). You'll also have no belief structure and no organization whatsoever with no leadership. So, basically, what you have is a bunch of people who may or may not show up somewhere because no one can decide where to meet, and those that do end up getting together won't have anything to do but mill around and stare aimlessly at each other for 15 minutes and then leave. Kind of sounds like you're throwing a party, not telling anyone where it's at, and forgetting to buy beer.

At least Catholics always have wine at their parties.

[sois]

[quote name='CatScratchFever' date='24 March 2010 - 09:59 AM' timestamp='1269449999' post='872730']
You know damn well you'd have Stryper play your services if you could.

And by the way, a hierarchy can consist of one person if that one person is the leader of the group. In your case, you. Thus, your religion is stupid, too. Even worse because you'll have no band (no hymns = no music = no band). You'll also have no belief structure and no organization whatsoever with no leadership. [b]So, basically, what you have is a bunch of people who may or may not show up somewhere because no one can decide where to meet, and those that do end up getting together won't have anything to do but mill around and stare aimlessly at each other for 15 minutes and then leave. [/b] Kind of sounds like you're throwing a party, not telling anyone where it's at, and forgetting to buy beer.

At least Catholics always have wine at their parties.
[/quote]

Sounds like our football practices

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='sois' date='24 March 2010 - 10:20 AM' timestamp='1269451231' post='872734']
Sounds like our football practices
[/quote]

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' date='24 March 2010 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1269449731' post='872727']
I can't seem to see the bullet point that makes a thorough understanding of the dynamic relationship between church law and secular law neccessary to condem actions that I see as a human rights issue. I did not get that you meant "understanding" and thought you meant "understanding this situation."
[/quote]
Lol. Not surprising. Hell, as a pro-science person you're still waiting to get the bullet point that Alexander von Humboldt existed.

[Squirrlnutz]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXE6GZPPCOk[/media]

[CTBengalsFan]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-03-26/how-priests-stay-out-of-prison/?cid=hp:mainpromo2

[quote]As more emerges about the pope's role in a sex-abuse cover-up involving more than 200 deaf boys, the Vatican is in crisis mode. Barbie Latza Nadeau talks to victims who still can't get heard.

The seedy Vatican pedophilia scandal that has rocked Ireland, Germany, the Netherlands, and Switzerland for the last few weeks has just taken an even more lurid turn. Allegations that a Wisconsin priest sexually abused as many as 200 deaf children over the course of 24 years are compounded by the fact that his superiors all but ignored the travesty. And worse still, a paper trail between the Wisconsin diocese and the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith shows that the current pope was well aware of the cover up.

The priest, Lawrence C. Murphy, who was head of the St. John’s School for the Deaf in St. Francis Wisconsin, even wrote directly to the man who now leads the Catholic church, appealing for leniency. The letter, published on The New York Times website, is addressed to “His Eminence Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger,” now Pope Benedict XVI. In the letter, Father Murphy pleads for leniency based on the fact that the church’s statue of limitations had run out. “I simply want to live out the time that I have left in the dignity of my priesthood,” he wrote to the man who is now Pope. “I ask your kind assistance in this matter.”

The Vatican did order that Murphy be tried in a secret Vatican tribunal, but after the elderly priest appealed to Ratzinger, the investigation was mysteriously dropped. Murphy was never defrocked, and died in 1998 with a full Catholic funeral and full Vatican honors as a priest. “I wish I knew what this pope was thinking,” Barbara Blaine, head of Survivor’s Network for those Abused by Priests, told The Daily Beast in Rome on Thursday. She and other survivors of abuse held a small protest outside the walls of Vatican City, passing out copies of photos of predator priests and letters from victims, pleading for help from the Vatican. “What did he think this lack of action would accomplish? These were at-risk kids. They were deaf kids who had been taken from their homes to be cared for by the church. It was outrageous.”

Blaine and her group, which includes an abuse survivor from a different Wisconsin parish, were forcibly removed from near Vatican City by Roman police after about 20 minutes for protesting without a permit. Blaine says they were taken in squad cars to a local police station where they were detained for nearly three hours. The police confiscated the posters and letters they were handing out and let them go. Protests were held in Chicago, Milwaukee and other US cities, as well. The group will hold similar events in Munich over the weekend. “I’m still hopeful that this pope will do the right thing,” Blaine says. She and other survivors would like the church to lift the veil of secrecy and turn over criminal child investigations to the local authorities the moment they are reported, rather than treating accusations as an internal church affair. “Criminal investigations should not be the business of the Catholic church.”

In fact, the underlying theme of this sordid scandal is anger at the Vatican hierarchy for obstructing criminal investigations by local authorities by not letting victims report the crimes. Victims of child abuse are generally among the most protected victims in society when the abuse is at the hands of teachers and parents. But church victims tend to first report the abuse to the church authorities rather than to police. The offending priests are then the ones who benefit from protection. In many cases, church officials make victims sign secrecy waivers and promise not to report the abuse to civil authorities. Italian religious columnist Enzo Mazzi says that the problem is the system. “Why this lack of transparency into the obvious distortion of facts in the church as if pedophilia only affects them?”
The scandal continues to spread. In Italy, at a diocese in Verona, 24 priests have been accused of sexually and physically abusing 67 students of a school for the deaf there. In an interview with the Associated Press, Alessandro Vantini described the sodomy as so brutal and relentless that he felt “as if I were dead.” He went on to say that he and other students were threatened or beaten if they told their parents. Stories like Vantini’s are not unique. The Wisconsin victims described how Murphy abused them in his car, in the confessional, and even at Father Murphy’s mother’s private home.

As more victims come forward, the Vatican continues to distance itself from their pleas. Federico Lombardi, a Vatican spokesman, has issued a series of dry statements explaining that it is not the Vatican’s fault. "During the mid-1970s, some of Father Murphy's victims reported his abuse to civil authorities," Lombardi says, blaming the local police for inaction. "The Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith was not informed of the matter until some 20 years later."

But when they were informed, as evidenced in the paper trail uncovered by The New York Times, they didn’t do enough to stop it. “We believe that if Pope Benedict XVI was sincere, he would be exposing the truth and helping victims,” Blaine told the Daily Beast. “He would be opening up the files to find out what really happened. Instead he is making strong efforts to protect the reputation of the priests at the expense of the victims.”[/quote]


No defense for these disgusting people. None at all.