They're building a mosque close to my house.

[oldschooler]

One last time. I never questioned anyone's rights.
I questioned the tact of building a Mosque there.

It is tactless for this Imam to say he never thought
it would stir up the pain that it has. It is tactless
for people to act like rights are all that matter.

You want to argue and harp on something that isn't even
being talked about. Maybe some day, you will understand.
Obviously not today.

Good day to you too.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1284043986' post='916055']
One last time. I never questioned anyone's rights.
I questioned the tact of building a Mosque there.

It is tactless for this Imam to say he never thought
it would stir up the pain that it has. It is tactless
for people to act like rights are all that matter.

You want to argue and harp on something that isn't even
being talked about. Maybe some day, you will understand.
Obviously not today.

Good day to you too.
[/quote]


I completely understand your opinion on the tact of it, I dont know why you continue to think I dont.

I just dont care about people's opinions on the tact of it, I care about peoples rights to put it there.

Rights trump opinion.

I dont know why you dont understand that.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1284043666' post='916052']
I was just thinking the same last night. Lets put up a Church and a Synagogue on either side of it. Lets show these terrorist assholes that despite our differences in faiths that we can still coexist in peace with one and other. That would be a real spit in their eye.
[/quote]


Thinking about this a bit more, what could be a more beautiful expression of who we are as Americans than showing the terrorists that we can exist together in peace despite our religious differences and further what could be a more beautiful monument to our constitution and reasons for establishing this country than this?

[|Lucid|]

I still have yet to have it explained to me why these people should feel responsible or connected to the acts of those terrorists... I think it's incredibly rude, impolite and offensive of the people upset about this to lump these people in with those monsters simply because they practice the same faith.

If you ask me, that is the insult that is happening here... It's actually pretty surprising considering I know the people arguing against the "mosque" would be equally offended to be lumped in or made to feel responsible for the actions of others for such a superficial reason.

[Rumble In the Jungle]

[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1284058529' post='916167']
I still have yet to have it explained to me why these people should feel responsible or connected to the acts of those terrorists... I think it's incredibly rude, impolite and offensive of the people upset about this to lump these people in with those monsters simply because they practice the same faith.

If you ask me, that is the insult that is happening here... It's actually pretty surprising considering I know the people arguing against the "mosque" would be equally offended to be lumped in or made to feel responsible for the actions of others for such a superficial reason.
[/quote]

well said!

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1284058529' post='916167']
I still have yet to have it explained to me why these people should feel responsible or connected to the acts of those terrorists... I think it's incredibly rude, impolite and offensive of the people upset about this to lump these people in with those monsters simply because they practice the same faith.

If you ask me, that is the insult that is happening here... It's actually pretty surprising considering I know the people arguing against the "mosque" would be equally offended to be lumped in or made to feel responsible for the actions of others for such a superficial reason.
[/quote]
Agree 100%. What sticks in my craw about this whole thing is that a small group of nasty folks have stirred up some concern among regular folks (Jamie's and Vol's hypothetical "average voter") who don't have the time to work their way through the dynamics underlying this whole pile of doodoo. It's a modern incarnation of a long-standing [i]nativist[/i] tradition in this country, only this time around the nativists are the radically neo-con pro-Israeli crowd and they have bigger and more megaphones to spread their mean, spiteful message.

It seems to me that we have enough of a problem with consigning segments of good folks into an implied second-class citizenship. Of course, if you ask some of the well-intended folks they'll claim this isn't true--and in their hearts it may well not be true. Yet, that's the ugly premise beneath all this. Who is going to tell our buddies Ikota or Rumble or Abu Zayd that they are not entitled to [b]all[/b] the benefits of citizenship? That they have to be wary and on the constant lookout simply because they approach God via a different doorway?

[Jamie_B]

The FL Quran burning has been called off.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1284046367' post='916066']
I completely understand your opinion on the tact of it, I dont know why you continue to think I dont.

I just dont care about people's opinions on the tact of it, I care about peoples rights to put it there.

Rights trump opinion.

I dont know why you dont understand that.
[/quote]



Thanks for sharing that thought, again.
But I got it 347 times ago and said as much 347 times.
So I understand it. But it isn't always that black and white.
Or no admendments to the Constitution would ever be made
and no new laws would ever be adopted.



[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1284058529' post='916167']
I still have yet to have it explained to me why these people should feel responsible or connected to the acts of those terrorists... I think it's incredibly rude, impolite and offensive of the people upset about this to lump these people in with those monsters simply because they practice the same faith.

If you ask me, that is the insult that is happening here... It's actually pretty surprising considering I know the people arguing against the "mosque" would be equally offended to be lumped in or made to feel responsible for the actions of others for such a superficial reason.
[/quote]


It is not the people that are being lumped, it is the religion that
is being lumped because it was hi-jacked. We weren't attacked
by a Country. We were attacked by Foreigners in the name of a religion.
Fair or unfair, it is what it is.

I know not all Muslims believe the way the one's that attacked us believe.
Hell, I have even seen non-Muslims say we deserved to be attacked.
But I have seen more Muslims celebrate and applaud the attacks than
I have seen denounce and condemn them. Hell, even the guy that is
building this Center said something to that effect.

And let's be real. All Americans are lumped in with the actions
of our Government. That's why innocent people were attacked
and killed. We all are lumped into groups by other
Americans even. Hell, I see all kinds of broad generalazations
made by a lot of people in this forum even.

Again, I know that some Muslims are helping us fight against
the Muslim extremists. But I just think that giving that religion
was used as the reasoning behind the attacks, that ground
being hallowed and everything that pertains to it, that if these
people wanted to help heal the wounds, there are much better
ways about it. I think they are just keeping the wounds open
to some.

Everyone has the right to worship any God they choose.
That is not what I am even talking about. I just think it
lacks tact to want to build a church that practices the same
religion that was used as reasoning, to be built so close to
the worst attack in our history. Again, too close too soon in my opinion.





[quote name='Rumble In the Jungle' timestamp='1284072165' post='916240']
well said!
[/quote]


Not trying to offend or insult anyone. At all. If what I am saying is coming off that way,
I genuinely apologize.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1284073615' post='916251']
Thanks for sharing that thought, again.
But I got it 347 times ago and said as much 347 times.
So I understand it. But it isn't always that black and white.
Or no admendments to the Constitution would ever be made
and no new laws would ever be adopted.
[/quote]




Then let me say this a 348th time.

The Constitution protects their rights, if you want to change that, change the Constitution.

[Jamie_B]

[quote]Hell, even the guy that is building this Center said something to that effect. [/quote]

He's also helped the FBI in counter-terrorism cases.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1284073816' post='916253']
Then let me say this a 348th time.

The Constitution protects their rights, if you want to change that, change the Constitution.
[/quote]


If this is all you have to add, then please don't add anything.
You sound like a fucking parrot.

No one is questioning their rights. They are questioning their decision
of the location. So please just stop wasting my time.

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1284073904' post='916254']
He's also helped the FBI in counter-terrorism cases.
[/quote]


This I know. But which do you think matters more in this topic?
You think people will look more at what he said after the attacks,
or what he did for the FBI?


Let me guess, it was his right to say it? And his choice to help? lol

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1284074154' post='916257']
If this is all you have to add, then please don't add anything.
You sound like a fucking parrot.

No one is questioning their rights. They are questioning their decision
of the location. So please just stop wasting my time.

[/quote]

So if I sound like a fucking parrot, what do you sound like? A parrot fucking?

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1284074154' post='916257']
This I know. But which do you think matters more in this topic?
You think people will look more at what he said after the attacks,
or what he did for the FBI?


Let me guess, it was his right to say it? And his choice to help? lol
[/quote]

I think people who would look at what he said and not what he did are ignorant.

Aside from that exactly what that he has said is any different than what the CIA has said? What Ron Paul has said? And are they wrong?

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1284074604' post='916263']
So if I sound like a fucking parrot, what do you sound like? A parrot fucking?[/quote]


Lame.

Dude. I. Get. It.

Rights. Over. Opinion.

But we are talking about our opinions on the subject.
Not anyone's rights. They have the right. They have the
right. They have the right. They have the right. I can not
say that enough. But I have the right to an opinion on their
choice of a location. Other's have the right to an opposing
opinion of mine. That's what this is about. Not the rights they
have. They have the right.



[quote]I think people who would look at what he said and not what he did are ignorant.

Aside from that exactly what that he has said is any different than what the CIA has said? What Ron Paul has said? And are they wrong?[/quote]


If they said that we made Bin Laden and that we brought the attack on ourselves, then yes.
And if they said that and wanted to build a Mosque, I would be against them too.

We helped Bin Laden fight a war he was already in.

To say we made him is like saying Wal-Mart makes crystal meth because
they have the supplies that makes it. The dude made his own decisions,
hi-jacked an entire religion and killed thousands of innocents. No one is
to blame for that but him and his followers.

Either you condemn the attacks, or you don't. There is no fence riding.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1284075508' post='916270']
Lame.

Dude. I. Get. It.

Rights. Over. Opinion.

But we are talking about our opinions on the subject.
Not anyone's rights. They have the right. They have the
right. They have the right. They have the right. I can not
say that enough. But I have the right to an opinion on their
choice of a location. Other's have the right to an opposing
opinion of mine. That's what this is about. Not the rights they
have. They have the right.


[/quote]

Never argued you didnt have a right to voice your opinion against it, in fact I have said you do. I only say that your opinion doesnt matter in the grand scheme of it being built.

Express your displeasure, it's your right.

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1284075508' post='916270']
If they said that we made Bin Laden and that we brought the attack on ourselves, then yes.
And if they said that and wanted to build a Mosque, I would be against them too.

We helped Bin Laden fight a war he was already in.

To say we made him is like saying Wal-Mart makes crystal meth because
they have the supplies that makes it. The dude made his own decisions,
hi-jacked an entire religion and killed thousands of innocents. No one is
to blame for that but him and his followers.

Either you condemn the attacks, or you don't. There is no fence riding.
[/quote]


Tell that to the CIA.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1284076002' post='916278']
Never argued you didnt have a right to voice your opinion against it, in fact I have said you do. I only say that your opinion doesnt matter in the grand scheme of it being built.

Express your displeasure, it's your right[/quote]

And I never said that it wasn't their right.
Was voicing an opinion. All you want to talk
about is their right. Which I am not talking about.
And the more I express said opinion, the more
you want to talk about their right. Which I am not
talking about.

You are going on about their rights like I don't know
they have that right. But I am not talking about their
rights. Yet you keep talking about their rights that
I am not talking about.




[quote][Tell that to the CIA.
[/quote]

Tell the CIA to condemn the attacks?

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1284073615' post='916251']
Thanks for sharing that thought, again.
But I got it 347 times ago and said as much 347 times.
So I understand it. But it isn't always that black and white.
Or no admendments to the Constitution would ever be made
and no new laws would ever be adopted.






It is not the people that are being lumped, it is the religion that
is being lumped because it was hi-jacked. We weren't attacked
by a Country. We were attacked by Foreigners in the name of a religion.
Fair or unfair, it is what it is.

I know not all Muslims believe the way the one's that attacked us believe.
Hell, I have even seen non-Muslims say we deserved to be attacked.
But I have seen more Muslims celebrate and applaud the attacks than
I have seen denounce and condemn them. Hell, even the guy that is
building this Center said something to that effect.

And let's be real. All Americans are lumped in with the actions
of our Government. That's why innocent people were attacked
and killed. We all are lumped into groups by other
Americans even. Hell, I see all kinds of broad generalazations
made by a lot of people in this forum even.

Again, I know that some Muslims are helping us fight against
the Muslim extremists. But I just think that giving that religion
was used as the reasoning behind the attacks, that ground
being hallowed and everything that pertains to it, that if these
people wanted to help heal the wounds, there are much better
ways about it. I think they are just keeping the wounds open
to some.

Everyone has the right to worship any God they choose.
That is not what I am even talking about. I just think it
lacks tact to want to build a church that practices the same
religion that was used as reasoning, to be built so close to
the worst attack in our history. Again, too close too soon in my opinion.








Not trying to offend or insult anyone. At all. If what I am saying is coming off that way,
I genuinely apologize.
[/quote]


I don't see why the rational used by some crazy murderous assholes should have any bearing on these people in NYC who would like to build their center...

Again, just because someone else does it does not make it a good reason for you to as well.. It would be just as wrong for me to assign guilt or blame to you over something someone else has done, that has nothing but some superficial connection to you.

It is just as wrong for you to equate guilt or responsibility on the Muslim religion for the actions of some terrorists, as it was for the terrorists to believe they were justified in killing random Americans for what they perceived was war perpetrated on them by our government (transference of guilt by superficial association).

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1284076300' post='916282']
And I never said that it wasn't their right.
Was voicing an opinion. All you want to talk
about is their right. Which I am not talking about.
And the more I express said opinion, the more
you want to talk about their right. Which I am not
talking about.

You are going on about their rights like I don't know
they have that right. But I am not talking about their
rights. Yet you keep talking about their rights that
I am not talking about.

[/quote]

Yep, its my right to talk about it.

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1284076300' post='916282']
Tell the CIA to condemn the attacks?
[/quote]


Tell the CIA they are wrong and that blowback doesnt exist.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1284076338' post='916283']
I don't see why the rational used by some crazy murderous assholes should have any bearing on these people in NYC who would like to build their center...

Again, just because someone else does it does not make it a good reason for you to as well.. It would be just as wrong for me to assign guilt or blame to you over something someone else has done, that has nothing but some superficial connection to you.

It is just as wrong for you to equate guilt or responsibility on the Muslim religion for the actions of some terrorists, as it was for the terrorists to believe they were justified in killing random Americans for what they perceived was war perpetrated on them bu our government.
[/quote]



I am not blaming the entire Muslim religion.
I just think it lacks tact to want to build the Mosque
that close to Ground Zero.

I am not bashing Muslims. I am expressing displeasure at the
decision to build a Mosque that close to hallowed ground that
was made that way because some a-holes wanted to hi-jack
the same religion.

You can be against the location of the planned Mosque and not
be against the entire Muslim religion. You can think it is a bad
decision and tactless and not think every Muslim is to blame.

Unaware or intentionally inconsiderate of someone else's feelings.
The Imam said he never thought it would stir up so much pain.


I am not trying to punish or condemn anyone. I am saying it
is tactless.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1284077049' post='916292']
I am not blaming the entire Muslim religion.
I just think it lacks tact to want to build the Mosque
that close to Ground Zero.

I am not bashing Muslims. I am expressing displeasure at the
decision to build a Mosque that close to hallowed ground that
was made that way because some a-holes wanted to hi-jack
the same religion.

You can be against the location of the planned Mosque and not
be against the entire Muslim religion. You can think it is a bad
decision and tactless and not think every Muslim is to blame.

Unaware or intentionally inconsiderate of someone else's feelings.
The Imam said he never thought it would stir up so much pain.


I am not trying to punish or condemn anyone. I am saying it
is tactless.
[/quote]


The question I am trying to get you to answer is WHY is it bad taste to build it there??? Why should the religion of Islam and it's practitioners feel guilty about it? Why should Americans be offended that Muslims want to build it there?

Why should the justification used by murderers some how hold Islam responsible to the point that Muslims should feel guilty about where they put their center?

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1284076445' post='916285']
Yep, its my right to talk about it.




Tell the CIA they are wrong and that blowback doesnt exist.
[/quote]

*sigh*

You have talked about nothing else though.

According to [url="/wiki/CNN"][color="#0645ad"]CNN[/color][/url] journalist [url="/wiki/Peter_Bergen"][color="#0645ad"]Peter Bergen[/color][/url], known for conducting the first television interview with Osama bin Laden in 1997,

[indent]The story about bin Laden and the CIA — that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden — is simply a folk myth. There's no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn't have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn't have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently. The real story here is the CIA did not understand who Osama was until 1996, when they set up a unit to really start tracking him




[/indent]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1284077465' post='916299']
*sigh*

You have talked about nothing else though.

According to [url="/wiki/CNN"][color="#0645ad"]CNN[/color][/url] journalist [url="/wiki/Peter_Bergen"][color="#0645ad"]Peter Bergen[/color][/url], known for conducting the first television interview with Osama bin Laden in 1997,

[indent]The story about bin Laden and the CIA — that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden — is simply a folk myth. There's no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn't have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn't have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently. The real story here is the CIA did not understand who Osama was until 1996, when they set up a unit to really start tracking him




[/indent]
[/quote]


What does that have to do with Bin Laden's reasoning for attacking? I said nothing about the CIA funding Bin Laden.

Spend an Hour with this.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5SoE9vBc6I[/media]

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1284077249' post='916294']
The question I am trying to get you to answer is WHY is it bad taste to build it there??? Why should the religion of Islam and it's practitioners feel guilty about it? Why should Americans be offended that Muslims want to build it there?

Why should the justification used by murderers some how hold Islam responsible to the point that Muslims should feel guilty about where they put their center?
[/quote]



Who said they should all feel guilty?

You don't think Ground Zero and the Muslim religion being together is a delicate situation?
You think it is appropriate for the same religion that was used as reasoning
for the attacks, to have a place of worship right on top of the hallowed ground?
I don't. And neither do a lot of others.


It's about respect for a site that has become a national monument marking the terrorist attacks of 9/11.

The proposed site is offending and ruffling feathers. I have already said that it would be no different
than if someone wanted to build a Japanese rec center in Pearl Harbor shortly after WW2.
Or a Mexican rec center right after the Alamo. Or a Vietnamese center right after the Vietnam war.
Did all Japanese, all Mexicans or all Veitnamese all have anything to do with those wars or attacks?
No. But it doesn't mean any Center wouldn't have offended or been in bad taste.

Sometimes some people are too PC for their own good, I guess. Or some aren't PC enough. I guess.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1284077652' post='916301']
What does that have to do with Bin Laden's reasoning for attacking? I said nothing about the CIA funding Bin Laden.

Spend an Hour with this.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5SoE9vBc6I[/media]
[/quote]


I know his reasoning for attacking. The subject was we made him.
He got what he deserved ect. That is blatantly false.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1284078567' post='916316']
I know his reasoning for attacking. The subject was we made him.
He got what he deserved ect. That is blatantly false.
[/quote]


In your opinion.

The CIA does not share that opinion.

I'll take the opinion of the experts.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1284078649' post='916317']
In your opinion.

The CIA does not share that opinion.

I'll take the opinion of the experts.
[/quote]


Please show me where they said we made him.
Please show me where they said we got what we deserved.

And while you are at it, please don't try and justify the attacks
and act like any of that is true. It was an act that can not be
justified. It should be condemned. Nothing more, nothing less.
It sickens me that you would say otherwise.