sois Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Hello internet, we watched a show yesterday about teacher unions and I don't know that I know enough about them to understand the problems. Are they good or bad? I think I can see both sides: [u][i][b]For[/b][/i][/u]: I know a dude who works at Wal Mart and he says the constantly push the limits on how they treat the employees. It is also very documented how Wal Mart will do bare minimums when it comes to distributing hours to employees who are on the cusp of getting benefits. I can see how a union would help people here. [u][i][b]Against[/b][/i][/u]: It just seems that when a union gets too powerful, it gets corrupt. Pretty simple. Plus companies should get to decide on how much they want to pay, how many hours they give employees, if they give benefits at all... etc. The employee can always walk away if he thinks it's an unfair work environment. Thoughts? Tell me how to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 I steal cool threads from other sites and start them here as my own creativity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 [quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1305823527' post='993595'] I steal cool threads from other sites and start them here as my own creativity. [/quote] ahhahahahahhahahhaahha not this one, I actually watched a movie yesterday about a union. I guess this argument is already out there on the internet, but I like what you guys say about things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 I believe in people to have the right to fight for what they can to make their lives better. The right of the employer to maximize profit is not any more important than the employee's right to try to maximize their earnings and benefits. I don't believe the government should bust unions any more than I think it should engage in price fixing. Free markets should be just as free for the workers as it is for the business owners, and in America we shouldn't be talking about restricting the rights to peacable assemble or organize to accomplish goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enon Bengal Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 I don't support unions - I can't get past the 'protect the lazy ass worker and get paid top dollar while doing it' generalization. It seems a merit raise system is best for everyone; people are more motivated and work a little harder when they know their raise is based on their performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 That's a pretty good twist. I never thought of unions as a free market idea, but they kind of are. I'm not a free market guy though, so now I am leaning more toward anti-union. Good shit, Lucid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mullichicken25 Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 [quote name='Enon Bengal' timestamp='1305825524' post='993608'] I don't support unions - I can't get past the 'protect the lazy ass worker and get paid top dollar while doing it' generalization. [b]It seems a merit raise system is best for everyone; people are more motivated and work a little harder when they know their raise is based on their performance[/b]. [/quote] my beef with this is arguement is that, when dealing with a large group of people, employees, companies, etc. keeping that merit system fair and objective would be a daunting task to say the least. On smaller scale it makes sense, but standardized evaluations for a large diverse group are a bad idea in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 [quote name='mullichicken25' timestamp='1305833198' post='993636'] my beef with this is arguement is that, when dealing with a large group of people, employees, companies, etc. keeping that merit system fair and objective would be a daunting task to say the least. On smaller scale it makes sense, but standardized evaluations for a large diverse group are a bad idea in my opinion [/quote] That, and how do you determine the rules of this "raise system"? And who makes sure the employer gives raises at all, or for that matter, doesn't cut pay while increasing hours during times of high profits? You can not like unions and want them done away with, but the alternative (unless you want to go back to the way things were before unions) is massive government intervention to protect human rights in the workplace. Something tells me most anti-union types wouldn't like this solution any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 [quote name='Enon Bengal' timestamp='1305825524' post='993608'] I don't support unions - I can't get past the 'protect the lazy ass worker and get paid top dollar while doing it' generalization. It seems a merit raise system is best for everyone; people are more motivated and work a little harder when they know their raise is based on their performance. [/quote] If unions have been so successful at providing workers with "top dollar" wages, how come the income of average Americans hasn't incereased in the past 30+ years while executive pay has skyrocketed? I keep hearing about this fantasy world where the average American worker is bleeding the economy dry due to these corrupt unions, but the world I live in seems to work the exact opposite of this... How do I get to this other world of milk and honey for these lazy working shleps? That place sounds awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1305833767' post='993639'] You can not like unions and want them done away with, but the alternative (unless you want to go back to the way things were before unions) is massive government intervention to protect human rights in the workplace. Something tells me most anti-union types wouldn't like this solution any better. [/quote] Ok, so here is something that sticks out to me. Human workplace violations? Why is this an issue? In a free market, couldn't workers just walk away from the crappy conditions? I understand this is a real problem in 3rd world countries, but in reality, the people hold the power if they just stay away from such a crappy job. However, real life needs force some people to take these jobs in substandard conditions. I understand that and I won't try to act like it won't exists, but I don't want to stray too far from the fact that workers should be able to just leave a shitty company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1305837743' post='993656'] Ok, so here is something that sticks out to me. Human workplace violations? Why is this an issue? In a free market, couldn't workers just walk away from the crappy conditions? I understand this is a real problem in 3rd world countries, but in reality, the people hold the power if they just stay away from such a crappy job. However, real life needs force some people to take these jobs in substandard conditions. I understand that and I won't try to act like it won't exists, but I don't want to stray too far from the fact that workers should be able to just leave a shitty company. [/quote] What if there is no where to go that is better? Surely you understand the climate that existed before unions and why they were necessary to earn what we have now. In theory your idea would prevent work places from deteriorating into sweat shops, but the reality of history would suggest otherwise. Would it happen over night? Of course not.. But you can be sure over years they would take back what took so long gain by workers banding together to force change. As I said.. I would believe the unions are to blame line of BS if workers wages weren't still stuck where they were 30+ years ago, while executive pay has skyrocketed. If the workers are bleeding companies dry, why no raise in pay... As it stands after inflation, workers make less now than they did 30 years ago. If wages are such a roadblock to business success, why the huge uptick in executive pay? Something smells... And it's the same old festering log of shit it's always been.. The fat cats throwing scraps to the dogs, convincing them they could have more if the dog next to them has less and watching in glee as they tear themselves to pieces over them. What is so amazing is how successful they are at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1305838636' post='993660'] What if there is no where to go that is better? Surely you understand the climate that existed before unions and why they were necessary to earn what we have now. In theory your idea would prevent work places from deteriorating into sweat shops, but the reality of history would suggest otherwise. Would it happen over night? Of course not.. But you can be sure over years they would take back what took so long gain by workers banding together to force change. As I said.. I would believe the unions are to blame line of BS if workers wages weren't still stuck where they were 30+ years ago, while executive pay has skyrocketed. If the workers are bleeding companies dry, why no raise in pay... As it stands after inflation, workers make less now than they did 30 years ago. If wages are such a roadblock to business success, why the huge uptick in executive pay? Something smells... And it's the same old festering log of shit it's always been.. The fat cats throwing scraps to the dogs, convincing them they could have more if the dog next to them has less and watching in glee as they tear themselves to pieces over them. What is so amazing is how successful they are at it. [/quote] Hmmm... what if there is nowhere to go that is better... that's a good question. I know how the work climate was before unions and I guess that the real life nature of it says that even though on paper, you should walk away, real life dictates there will always be someone to take less than you. Case in point: dudes in front of Home Depot. So I guess in a vacuum, I am anti-union, but in real life it seems they are necessary to a degree. I guess what people have been arguing about these last 100 years is the correct level of power a union should have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1305837743' post='993656'] Ok, so here is something that sticks out to me. Human workplace violations? Why is this an issue? In a free market, couldn't workers just walk away from the crappy conditions? I understand this is a real problem in 3rd world countries, but in reality, the people hold the power if they just stay away from such a crappy job. However, real life needs force some people to take these jobs in substandard conditions. I understand that and I won't try to act like it won't exists, but I don't want to stray too far from the fact that workers should be able to just leave a shitty company. [/quote] This sounds like the opinion of someone who does not understand what work places did to their workers before unions... You also don't realize that most workplace rules that private sector jobs enjoy now were fought for and won on the backs of Union workers... Do away with unions and ALL employers will slowly start to take advantage of the individual worker.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1305840749' post='993668'] Hmmm... what if there is nowhere to go that is better... that's a good question. I know how the work climate was before unions and I guess that the real life nature of it says that even though on paper, you should walk away, real life dictates there will always be someone to take less than you. Case in point: dudes in front of Home Depot. So I guess in a vacuum, I am anti-union, but in real life it seems they are necessary to a degree. [b]I guess what people have been arguing about these last 100 years is the correct level of power a union should have.[/b][/quote] Some unions go overboard at times... but so do employers. This type of battle in the workplace leads to the same kind of inefficienies that our two party system does with our federal government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/05/top-five-things-unions/ [quote]1. Unions Gave Us The Weekend: Even the ultra-conservative Mises Institute notes that the relatively labor-free 1870, the average workweek for most Americans was 61 hours — almost double what most Americans work now. Yet in the late nineteenth century and the twentieth century, labor unions engaged in massive strikes in order to demand shorter workweeks so that Americans could be home with their loved ones instead of constantly toiling for their employers with no leisure time. By 1937, these labor actions created enough political momentum to pass the Fair Labor Standards Act, which helped create a federal framework for a shorter workweek that included room for leisure time. 2. Unions Gave Us Fair Wages And Relative Income Equality: As ThinkProgress reported earlier in the week, the relative decline of unions over the past 35 years has mirrored a decline in the middle class’s share of national income. It is also true that at the time when most Americans belonged to a union — a period of time between the 1940′s and 1950′s — income inequality in the U.S. was at its lowest point in the history of the country. 3. Unions Helped End Child Labor: “Union organizing and child labor reform were often intertwined” in U.S. history, with organization’s like the “National Consumers’ League” and the National Child Labor Committee” working together in the early 20th century to ban child labor. The very first American Federation of Labor (AFL) national convention passed “a resolution calling on states to ban children under 14 from all gainful employment” in 1881, and soon after states across the country adopted similar recommendations, leading up to the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act which regulated child labor on the federal level for the first time. 4. Unions Won Widespread Employer-Based Health Coverage: “The rise of unions in the 1930′s and 1940′s led to the first great expansion of health care” for all Americans, as labor unions banded workers together to negotiate for health coverage plans from employers. In 1942, “the US set up a National War Labor Board. It had the power to set a cap on all wage increases. But it let employers circumvent the cap by offering “fringe benefits” – notably, health insurance.” By 1950, “half of all companies with fewer than 250 workers and two-thirds of all companies with more than 250 workers offered health insurance of one kind or another.” 5. Unions Spearheaded The Fight For The Family And Medical Leave Act: Labor unions like the AFL-CIO federation led the fight for this 1993 law, which “requires state agencies and private employers with more than 50 employees to provide up to 12 weeks of job-protected unpaid leave annually for workers to care for a newborn, newly adopted child, seriously ill family member or for the worker’s own illness.”[/quote][quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1305834742' post='993643'] If unions have been so successful at providing workers with "top dollar" wages, how come the income of average Americans hasn't incereased in the past 30+ years while executive pay has skyrocketed? [/quote] I'd like to know that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1305838636' post='993660'] As I said.. I would believe the unions are to blame line of BS [b]if workers wages weren't still stuck where they were 30+ years ag[/b]o, while executive pay has skyrocketed. If the workers are bleeding companies dry, why no raise in pay... As it stands after inflation, workers make less now than they did 30 years ago. If wages are such a roadblock to business success, why the huge uptick in executive pay? [/quote] [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1305853048' post='993725'] I'd like to know that too. [/quote] The obvious answer is that they've been getting screwed, but I read one line of reasoning (I wanna say a HuffPo article) that said many Unions recognized early on that healthcare costs would continue to rise at absurd rates so they opted for medical benefits over salaries at most bargaining tables. So in some aspects they were being really progressive and now they're being vilified for having this foresight because eight-figure-salaried board members "can't provide" benefits and while staying competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted May 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1305851937' post='993721'] This sounds like the opinion of someone who does not understand what work places did to their workers before unions... You also don't realize that most workplace rules that private sector jobs enjoy now were fought for and won on the backs of Union workers... Do away with unions and ALL employers will slowly start to take advantage of the individual worker.... [/quote] I stated earlier that I understand the past and how work places treated employees, but we are at now now. The world is different. There is no harm in a discussion of how stuff would work in todays workforce. If you say that stuff would revert, that's all you have to say. However, IMO, workers seem to have more leverage these days, especially in tight margin industries. So I could argue that employees are in a good position relative to the pre-union workers. How much of the workforce in the United States is unionized these days? I need to hit the google... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bengal Migration| Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1305834742' post='993643'] [size="7"]If unions have been so successful at providing workers with "top dollar" wages, how come the income of average Americans hasn't incereased in the past 30+ years while executive pay has skyrocketed?[/size] I keep hearing about this fantasy world where the average American worker is bleeding the economy dry due to these corrupt unions, but the world I live in seems to work the exact opposite of this... How do I get to this other world of milk and honey for these lazy working shleps? That place sounds awesome. [/quote] I'm considering creating 10 more accounts so I can add +1 from each of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1305864219' post='993746'] I stated earlier that I understand the past and how work places treated employees, but we are at now now. The world is different. There is no harm in a discussion of how stuff would work in todays workforce. If you say that stuff would revert, that's all you have to say. However, IMO, workers seem to have more leverage these days, especially in tight margin industries. So I could argue that employees are in a good position relative to the pre-union workers. How much of the workforce in the United States is unionized these days? I need to hit the google... [/quote] I would say workers have less leverage right now... This is a down economy...every medicore job has hundreds of people applying for it... I know people who work in non-union shops and a lot of the get treated like garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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