Obama Health Care Bill would force Catholic Institutions to Violate their Beliefs

[Jason]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1328667307' post='1094640']


ah

never heard of those, wonder what they are talking about.
[/quote]

look up RU-486.

[|kennethmw|]

Most catholics agree with the prez.

www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/09/barack-obama-contraception-ruling_n_1265333.html?ref=politics

[steggyD]

What about us married people with four kids? I'm done having kids; I would love for my health insurance to pay for birth control. On the other hand, there is a lot of abstinence going on, so we don't need that much control ...

[|Bunghole|]

The Catholic stance against birth control is both stupid and dangerous. Its not like we're trying to re-populate the Earth after the fictitious flood here people.

And no, Jesus could never be a Republican. He needs a shave and a haircut, and he hung out with the poor. God the Father is a Republican, though. "Do what I say or I'll drown your ass!"

/Bill Maher

[bengalrick]

[quote name='steggyD' timestamp='1328843840' post='1095027']
What about us married people with four kids? I'm done having kids; I would love for my health insurance to pay for birth control. On the other hand, there is a lot of abstinence going on, so we don't need that much control ...
[/quote]

i know the feeling

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1328918910' post='1095278']

i know the feeling [/quote]

Freaks when you meet them, nuns after the cake!

[Jason]

Jesus would not have been into politics. He was here to change the world on a person by person basis.

But He also knew the difference between government redistribution of wealth and true charity. He would also be pro-life.

As for whether the Catholic position on birth control is "right or wrong", that is a moot point. The fact is, that is their position and they have a first amendment right to believe that.

Also, the president is overstepping his authority in trying to force this.

[Jamie_B]

[b] Isaiah 10[/b]
[color=#000000]
[sup]1[/sup] Woe to those who make unjust laws,
to those who issue oppressive decrees,
[sup]2[/sup] to deprive the poor of their rights
and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people,
making widows their prey
and robbing the fatherless.
[sup]3[/sup] What will you do on the day of reckoning,
when disaster comes from afar?
To whom will you run for help?
Where will you leave your riches?
[sup]4[/sup] Nothing will remain but to cringe among the captives
or fall among the slain.[/color]
[color=#000000]
Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away,
his hand is still upraised.[/color]
[color=#000000]
[/color]
[color=#000000]
[/color]
[color=#000000]
[/color]
[color=#000000]
Who are those that make the laws? [/color]

[bengalrick]

Matter of opinion i guess but I think that the best way to keep someone in poverty is to give them just enough provisions and money to not have to worry about climbing out of poverty...

I agree with Jason though, he would not be in politics. As a matter of fact, it was assumed the messiah would be a political and military power. We all know that isn't how it turned out.

He would most certainly be a social conservative on most things, though. He'd be pro life, pro marriage, anti gay marriage, Anyone that will assume differently, I'd love to hear your rebuttal.

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1329183427' post='1095824']Matter of opinion i guess but I think that the best way to keep someone in poverty is to give them just enough provisions and money to not have to worry about climbing out of poverty...

I agree with Jason though, he would not be in politics. As a matter of fact, it was assumed the messiah would be a political and military power. We all know that isn't how it turned out.

He would most certainly be a social conservative on most things, though. He'd be pro life, pro marriage, anti gay marriage, Anyone that will assume differently, I'd love to hear your rebuttal.[/quote]

I'm not quite sure you're right about my Jesus. I don't think my Jesus would want to penalize a woman for being human and making a mistake or being taken advantage of. I also think he would be a lot more pro life on people after they were born, as opposed to just while they are in the womb. I do believe he would be pro marriage even though most people aren't, considering we have about a 50% divorce rate. And I don't think he would consider "Gay" a problem like social conservatives do. Sin is sin, so whether it's

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1329183427' post='1095824']
Matter of opinion i guess but I think that [color=#ff0000]the best way to keep someone in poverty is to give them just enough provisions and money to not have to worry about climbing out of poverty...[/color]

I agree with Jason though, he would not be in politics. As a matter of fact, it was assumed the messiah would be a political and military power. We all know that isn't how it turned out.

He would most certainly be a social conservative on most things, though. He'd be pro life, pro marriage, anti gay marriage, Anyone that will assume differently, I'd love to hear your rebuttal.
[/quote]

and I think the best way to keep them in it is to pay them as little as possible while you keep as much for yourself as possible thus putting people in debit in most cases just to get by....in fact there is a verse about this...





[quote]
[b] James 5[/b]

[b] Warning to Rich Oppressors[/b]
[color=#000000] [/color][sup]1[/sup][color=#000000] Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. [/color][sup]2[/sup][color=#000000] Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. [/color][sup]3[/sup][color=#000000] Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. [/color][sup]4[/sup][color=#000000] Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. [/color][sup]5[/sup][color=#000000]You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[/color][sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+5&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30360a"]a[/url]][/sup][color=#000000] [/color][sup]6[/sup][color=#000000] You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.[/color][/quote]

[|kennethmw|]

Being homosexual, or anything else. We have all sinned in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done as well as left undone. I don't think he gave degrees to sin, I think he gave his blood to redeem me from my sin. Mines not worse or better than anyone else's, it's still sin. So how do I judge someone else for what they do? Judge not, lest you be judged.

[Jamie_B]

I just find irony in the big government social conservatives who are all about using the power of the state to protect life, yet scream socialism when the power of the state is used to help the poor, which I view very much as a pro-life issue.

[|kennethmw|]

I read this quote the other day, and it seems very appropriate. Selfishness is not living the way you want to live, it's wanting everyone else to live the way you want to live. To be totally frank, it's my problem with most Christians. As a Christian, it's not my job to MAKE people live according to the bible's teachings, it's to live my life in such a way that people want to.

[bengalrick]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1329190989' post='1095843']
I just find irony in the big government social conservatives who are all about using the power of the state to protect life, yet scream socialism when the power of the state is used to help the poor, which I view very much as a pro-life issue.
[/quote]

I mean, not its not Jamie. Pro life and pro choice are very established and defined. And it has nothing to do with anything but abortion. I just explained that I believe for some (not all mind you... we all need help) these government programs are exactly what is keeping these people in poverty.

[bengalrick]

[quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1329189985' post='1095840']
I'm not quite sure you're right about my Jesus. I don't think my Jesus would want to penalize a woman for being human and making a mistake or being taken advantage of. I also think he would be a lot more pro life on people after they were born, as opposed to just while they are in the womb. I do believe he would be pro marriage even though most people aren't, considering we have about a 50% divorce rate. And I don't think he would consider "Gay" a problem like social conservatives do. Sin is sin, so whether it's
[/quote]

So you think he would applaud or even ignore someone that decides to take life in their own hands, play God, and end their pregnancy early? I think he would call that murder.

[bengalrick]

[quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1329190554' post='1095842']
Being homosexual, or anything else. We have all sinned in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done as well as left undone. I don't think he gave degrees to sin, I think he gave his blood to redeem me from my sin. Mines not worse or better than anyone else's, it's still sin. So how do I judge someone else for what they do? Judge not, lest you be judged.
[/quote]

Your absolutely right. A sin is a sin is a sin. No matter the levels.

I am not judging, nor would Jesus... But he would not approve or be an advocate which is what being in politics would have to entale.

[bengalrick]

[quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1329190554' post='1095842']
Being homosexual, or anything else. We have all sinned in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done as well as left undone. I don't think he gave degrees to sin, I think he gave his blood to redeem me from my sin. Mines not worse or better than anyone else's, it's still sin. So how do I judge someone else for what they do? Judge not, lest you be judged.
[/quote]

Amen brother. Also one of the my biggest problems with organized churches. You have a point here, but I'm not sure you follow me all the way. I am not judging people that live that life style. Not at all, its not for me to judge. I was making a point about Jesus being in politics. If we veer from those points, then you guys are just putting words in my mouth. I have a very opened interpretation of the Bible and I think I am pretty reasonable when it comes to politics... But on this topic, no chance Jesus is in politics but if he were, he'd be a social conservative like I said, based on his teachings and the Bible.

You want me to go further I will, he would be a liberal when it comes to poverty and social programs, no question. But it wouldn't be that black and white. Jesus wasn't political... he was after your hearts not your minds. He will give you all the blessings in the world if you have faith in him and ask for them.

[bengalrick]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1329190495' post='1095841']

and I think the best way to keep them in it is to pay them as little as possible while you keep as much for yourself as possible thus putting people in debit in most cases just to get by....in fact there is a verse about this...
[/quote]

Why when I say he'd be a social conservative, are you attacking the fact if he would be a fiscal conservative?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1329225446' post='1095879']

I mean, not its not Jamie. Pro life and pro choice are very established and defined. And it has nothing to do with anything but abortion. I just explained that I believe for some (not all mind you... we all need help) these government programs are exactly what is keeping these people in poverty.
[/quote]


and you couldnt be more wrong on both accounts

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1329226052' post='1095885']

Why when I say he'd be a social conservative, are you attacking the fact if he would be a fiscal conservative?
[/quote]


Without a doubt I am.

One only has to look at this verse...

Matthew 19:21 - [color=#001320][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."[/font][/color]

[The PatternMaster]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1329228143' post='1095892']


Without a doubt I am.

One only has to look at this verse...

Matthew 19:21 - [color=#001320][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."[/font][/color]
[/quote]


Jesus knew that all of our stuff keeps us distracted from focusing on him, the more stuff you have the easier it is to put your faith and trust in those things than in him.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='The PatternMaster' timestamp='1329233696' post='1095919']


Jesus knew that all of our stuff keeps us distracted from focusing on him, the more stuff you have the easier it is to put your faith and trust in those things than in him.
[/quote]


Yep. You can not have two masters as he said.

[Jason]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1329190989' post='1095843']
I just find irony in the big government social conservatives who are all about using the power of the state to protect life, yet scream socialism when the power of the state is used to help the poor, which I view very much as a pro-life issue.
[/quote]

Government has certain legitimate roles. Protecting the innocent is one of them. Being a "nanny state" is not.
II Thessalonians 3:10 says If a man will not work he shall not eat.

I have no problem with "helping the poor". I'm all for the concept of a "safety net". I have a problem when the "safety net" becomes a hammock and government reliance becomes a lifestyle.

And what does that have to do with the government interfering in the religious beliefs of the Catholic church?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Jason' timestamp='1329247994' post='1095969']

Government has certain legitimate roles. Protecting the innocent is one of them. Being a "nanny state" is not.
II Thessalonians 3:10 says If a man will not work he shall not eat.

I have no problem with "helping the poor". I'm all for the concept of a "safety net". I have a problem when the "safety net" becomes a hammock and government reliance becomes a lifestyle.

And what does that have to do with the government interfering in the religious beliefs of the Catholic church?
[/quote]


Who's simply talking about work and eating? The fact of the matter is the economic policies of this government as it relates to the poor and middle class are not just, the income gap is wider than it has been in decades and the idea that the 1% have earned this is lunacy. This in my view is absolutely a "life" issue because your talking about the ability of people to get by without having to go into debit to do it. One can not simply get by with saying we protect life using the power of the state but that we dont use the power of the state to ensure economic and social justice, there is zero consistency in that type of thinking. You can either be a pro-choice small government libertarian type of conservative and say Jesus was all about charity (while ignoring Isaiah 10 doing that, and arguing against economic and social justice.) or you can be a pro-life, pro-living wage, pro-organized labor, pro-democracy (not the current oligarcy we have) if your going to be consistent in beliefs regarding faith and politics. There is nothing in this regard that can make me believe that Jesus would have been a fiscal conservative. [b]Nothing.[/b]


But we can talk about socialism for the rich and corporations and their dependence on the big government teet too if you like. I mean is it ok not to give welfare to a man to eat and ok allow a company like GE to pay less in taxes than they do for lobbying? And let's not even mention the subsidies (read corporate welfare) that the oil industry gets, (while making record profits.)

Or I supposed we could just "let them eat cake"


Finally there is no requirement that ALL providers require contraception, there never was, thus the Church is still as free as it was before this to choose a different provider and continue to practice their beliefs. If it becomes that all providers are required to provide it, then I will agree with you.