Madieu Superstar Posted September 29, 2012 Report Share Posted September 29, 2012 Just a simple question. Would Klinger have had success in today's NFL where spread option QB's have a smoother transition? Even though he ran the Run & Shoot, do you think it's possible that NFL OC's could use his talent and that system, along with a quality supporting cast, to make a capable NFL offense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 [quote name='Madieu Superstar' timestamp='1348962840' post='1164127'] Just a simple question. Would Klinger have had success in today's NFL where spread option QB's have a smoother transition? Even though he ran the Run & Shoot, do you think it's possible that NFL OC's could use his talent and that system, along with a quality supporting cast, to make a capable NFL offense? [/quote] No, he had a horrible throwing motion that was too slow and tended to throw off his back foot too much making his throws high. In the pros where it can be a fraction of a second difference between a completion, incompletion, or interception, he couldn't get it. He also had very little ability to put touch on the ball. He sucked at throwing swing/screen passes and often overthrew receivers on intermediate routes. Very few QB can make it in the NFL without having proper mechanics. Brett Favre did but I think we can all agree he was pretty special. Byron Leftwhich has bad mechanics as well, you could probably assert that was he became a bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madieu Superstar Posted September 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Would it have been possible that with actual NFL coaching, instead of the likes of Dana Bible, he could have progressed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 [quote name='Madieu Superstar' timestamp='1348965754' post='1164136'] Would it have been possible that with actual NFL coaching, instead of the likes of Dana Bible, he could have progressed? [/quote] Usually not. When a guy is able to make until his junior year in college it becomes in bred. You have to remember EVERY thing was wrong with him. He held the ball low in his stance, the NFL was the first time he ever had significant time under center, his footwork was horrible (mostly from not playing from under center in his career), and he brought the ball extremely far back in his throwing motion which made very susceptible to fumbles. I guess the only guy I could say was a exception was Tim Tebow. He went through weeks and weeks of working with a specialist to change his all around mechanics. With Klinger I don't care if you had Merlin the magician working with him, it wasn't going to happen. It took him a whole year just to learn how to pull back from center into 5 & 7 step drops. Even then he was uncomfortable because he couldn't see his blindside the same way he could if he was in shotgun and it threw off the rhythm in his head of how long he had to get rid of the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 [quote name='Madieu Superstar' timestamp='1348965754' post='1164136'] Would it have been possible that with actual NFL coaching, instead of the likes of Dana Bible, he could have progressed? [/quote] This.. The main ingredient in the stretch of futility was the dearth of NFL caliber coaching in this organization. Coupled with the inability to realize an affective vision (partly due to meddling) was the main reason behind the complete draft flops of that time period.. Despite how you feel about Marvin, he is directly responsible for reversing that, and currently has one of the stronger coaching staffs in the league IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigris Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Merlin was a wizard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Tigre Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Having Tom Scott and Melvin Tuten blocking in front of you, Jeff Query as your #1 WR, and Derrick Fenner as your RB...doesn't do much for substantive development either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1348966632' post='1164140'] This.. The main ingredient in the stretch of futility was the dearth of NFL caliber coaching in this organization. Coupled with the inability to realize an affective vision (partly due to meddling) was the main reason behind the complete draft flops of that time period.. Despite how you feel about Marvin, he is directly responsible for reversing that, and currently has one of the stronger coaching staffs in the league IMO. [/quote] I totally disagree. "You can't teach old dog new tricks." If it was true that a guy like Klinger, Leftwhich, Tebow could be "fixed" once he becomes a pro then you would see a lot more success stories. It's just like baseball and trying to change a pictures angle, rotation, follow through. Or even changing a hitters stance, bat grip, or swing. It's a difficult thing and you will rarely hear of success stories. And before you point to Tebow, remember this, Tebow isn't still the NFL because of his throwing ability. Just FYI Dana Bible was only his QB coach in 1992 when Klingler wasn't the starter Boomer still was. Ken Anderson came in in 1993 until he left. Also Bruce Coslet who was awesome offensive coordinator was there part of his time. So I am going to say it wasn't the coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriZENry Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Totally forgot he played for the Raiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 [quote name='Tigris' timestamp='1348966785' post='1164141'] Merlin was a wizard. [/quote] Maybe they are brothers from another mother...Wizard and Magician were equivalent in the Mid Evil times, I asked Paul Walker, and he knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madieu Superstar Posted September 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 I'm just always curious about some of the players we had back then, who maybe, under different circumstances could have actually had careers. I mean, could Reinard Wilson have been a good player if he was developed differently? How good could John Copeland have been in a different situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 [quote name='Madieu Superstar' timestamp='1348977331' post='1164171'] I'm just always curious about some of the players we had back then, who maybe, under different circumstances could have actually had careers. I mean, could Reinard Wilson have been a good player if he was developed differently? How good could John Copeland have been in a different situation? [/quote] Reinard Wilson was just dumb as a rock. That's pretty much why he was a bust. Copeland maybe could have been better if he was put in a defense like Zimmer's. I could see Copeland as a Dunlap kind of way. Copeland's arm length was one of the longest at the combine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Alice Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 [quote name='Madieu Superstar' timestamp='1348977331' post='1164171'] I'm just always curious about some of the players we had back then, who maybe, under different circumstances could have actually had careers. I mean, could Reinard Wilson have been a good player if he was developed differently? How good could John Copeland have been in a different situation? [/quote] Reinard Wilson was just one in a long line of Florida State pass rushers that never made a splash in the NFL. You have to remember that he played for one of the great defensive minds of all-time - particularly when it comes to rushing the passer. If Dick LeBeau couldn't make him a star, who could? John Copeland was a good player - nothing more, nothing less. It was the failure of top picks like him to become superstars that cursed the Bengals in the 90's. Chicken or egg? That'd be a very interesting debate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurnsBengal Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 This thread and the memories it brings back has given me the shakes. I'm going to pretend this didn't happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 [quote name='Big Alice' timestamp='1349017303' post='1164224'] Reinard Wilson was just one in a long line of Florida State pass rushers that never made a splash in the NFL. You have to remember that he played for one of the great defensive minds of all-time - particularly when it comes to rushing the passer. If Dick LeBeau couldn't make him a star, who could? John Copeland was a good player - nothing more, nothing less. It was the failure of top picks like him to become superstars that cursed the Bengals in the 90's. Chicken or egg? That'd be a very interesting debate... [/quote] The DC doesn't have the time to personally coach up all his defensive players.. The DC relies on his position coaches to do that.. Sure he can throw in a helping hand here and there, but his job is to set up the scheme and set the direction of the defense and relegate that to his assistants. Obviously I can't make an argument that any one player would have succeeded in a different organization.. But the opposite argument is just as subjective. Truth is we will never really know what players were wasted by a bad organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|High School Harry| Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 [quote name='Le Tigre' timestamp='1348967188' post='1164142'] Having Tom Scott and Melvin Tuten blocking in front of you, Jeff Query as your #1 WR, and Derrick Fenner as your RB...doesn't do much for substantive development either. [/quote] Carl "Hater" Prickins didn't do Klingler any favors as far as effort and selling out. Carl the Prick was nursing a major pout at not being drafted in the first round and second to the Bengals behind Klingler. He turned himself inside out for Blake but only half assed it for Klingler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 [quote name='High School Harry' timestamp='1349025291' post='1164250'] Carl "Hater" Prickins didn't do Klingler any favors as far as effort and selling out. Carl the Prick was nursing a major pout at not being drafted in the first round and second to the Bengals behind Klingler. He turned himself inside out for Blake but only half assed it for Klingler. [/quote] Good players, especially good QBs, make the players around them better. Klingler just wasn't any good, and the Bengals drafted a player who's potential talent was only inflated by the system he ran in college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|High School Harry| Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 [quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1349028302' post='1164257'] Good players, especially good QBs, make the players around them better. Klingler just wasn't any good, and the Bengals drafted a player who's potential talent was only inflated by the system he ran in college. [/quote] I think mediocre quarterbacks can be made to look better depending on the surrounding cast that is built around them but excellent college quarterbacks can be destroyed by a mediocre system, surrounding cast and coaching. Klingler was not really suited to play pro quarterback or at last here with the coaching and surrounding cast. I think there was some degree of expecting/wanting Boomer to groom him and Boom wanted no part of it. Kind of a total failure all the way around. And ancient history... let's move along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 [quote name='High School Harry' timestamp='1349029052' post='1164259'] I think mediocre quarterbacks can be made to look better depending on the surrounding cast that is built around them but excellent college quarterbacks can be destroyed by a mediocre system, surrounding cast and coaching. Klingler was not really suited to play pro quarterback or at last here with the coaching and surrounding cast. I think there was some degree of expecting/wanting Boomer to groom him and Boom wanted no part of it. Kind of a total failure all the way around. And ancient history... let's move along. [/quote] Nobody hijacked this thread to talk about Klingler and the 10 foot high pile of crap that was the 90's. Fact is, Klingler was a high first round quarterback that was drafted eventhough the Bengals still had Boomer. He wasn't drafted because he was expected to be mediocre. He was drafted to be a franchise guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeds Orange Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 [quote name='BurnsBengal' timestamp='1349019186' post='1164228'] This thread and the memories it brings back has given me the shakes. I'm going to pretend this didn't happen... [/quote] The era of 1991 to 2002 was the worst stretches for any franchise in the history of the NFL. The lowlights: 1991: 2-13 heading into the final game of the season 1993: 1-12 after 13 games 1994: 2-13 heading into the final game of the season 1998: 2-12 after 14 games 1999: 1-10 after 11 games 2000: 2-10 after 12 games 2002: 1-13 after 14 games EDIT: Sorry, High School Harry, I posted this before I saw your suggestion to file all this away as ancient history, and I agree. But since I took the time to type it, I'll leave it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|High School Harry| Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 [quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1349029337' post='1164260'] Nobody hijacked this thread to talk about Klingler and the 10 foot high pile of crap that was the 90's. Fact is, Klingler was a high first round quarterback that was drafted eventhough the Bengals still had Boomer. He wasn't drafted because he was expected to be mediocre. He was drafted to be a franchise guy. [/quote] We are actually agreeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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