fredtoast Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 15 hours ago, thezerawkid said: Which would you rather have, T, subbing based on situations and keeping Dalton primarily upright, or forcing the issue with the same guys without improvement and a dead Dalton? He doesn't really care. No matter what the Bengals choice to do he will claim it is the wrong decision. If they stick with bad starters he will squeal and squirt all over himself over that, and if they continue to rotate he will also squeal and squirt over that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|schotzee| Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thezerawkid Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 10 hours ago, LostInDaJungle said: But they were rotating RG too. So, we already knew we had a problem at RT before we ever let Whit and Z go, and now we have to rotate in Moobs at both tackle spots, have to play 3 guys at RG.... If you're telling me that at all three of these positions they can't figure out who's the best player, that must mean they're pretty similar. So why not ride or die with your starting 5 and at least let them get some cohesion. Let them learn to work together. How long have we heard the old mantra that O-Line has to work as a unit? I’m not necessarily arguing that they can’t figure who the “best five” are. I am suggesting they are subbing in based on game situations and the specific skill sets of individuals. One set of five, unfortunately for us, isn’t necessarily the best across the board for all plays and situations. I like the mantra that the oline works as a unit. However, we watched them try the “ride or die” last year and it was an abortion. I prefer what I am seeing now versus then. Another complication that might be figuring in here is how Lazor’s schemes differ and how they are genuinely trying to get guys on the line more competent more quickly, and do so on the fly. Lazor’s offense is a marked departure from Zamp’s. Perhaps we’ll see more cohesion coming out of the bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostInDaJungle Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 35 minutes ago, thezerawkid said: I am suggesting they are subbing in based on game situations and the specific skill sets of individuals. It looks to me like they are subbing guys in by series. If you can figure out a rhyme or reason beyond that, I'm open to hearing it. Like - We wanted to run the ball more for 18 plays, so we put in Andre Smith. Look, if Fish isn't the answer at RT... Why bring him in and out of the game. Either start Moobs or let Fisher get his trial by fire. Now that Hopkins is back from injury... He's either the guy you wanted to start after months of pre-season, or he's not. I've been watching football for almost 40 years now, and I cannot remember another time when I saw a team rotate in the Offensive line. Wait, I take that back... The 2015 Patriots when their starters were injured. Heck, they did win the SB that year. Maybe this will be a new trend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thezerawkid Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 52 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said: It looks to me like they are subbing guys in by series. If you can figure out a rhyme or reason beyond that, I'm open to hearing it. Like - We wanted to run the ball more for 18 plays, so we put in Andre Smith. Look, if Fish isn't the answer at RT... Why bring him in and out of the game. Either start Moobs or let Fisher get his trial by fire. Now that Hopkins is back from injury... He's either the guy you wanted to start after months of pre-season, or he's not. I've been watching football for almost 40 years now, and I cannot remember another time when I saw a team rotate in the Offensive line. Wait, I take that back... The 2015 Patriots when their starters were injured. Heck, they did win the SB that year. Maybe this will be a new trend. I’ve been watching football just a little less time than you and I can’t recall offensive line subbing. However, I can’t distinctly *not* remember it either. It isn’t something I have paid particularly close attention to. And, no, I cannot claim the substitutions are happening in correlation to any specific game situations or plays being called. I still just think they aren’t ready to give up on two high round picks with some years left on their initial deals. Yet, they aren’t ready to give up on the current campaign, either. I think they are seeing progress but also aren’t entirely convinced that leaving these guys in for the entirety of the game gives them the best chance to win yet. I do do agree that what’s happening is unorthodox, but, I maintain it’s better than what Andy had to endure last year while they attempted the hell or high water approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleEarl Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 I believe Paul Brown used to shuttle guards in and out to bring in plays. So, there's that. The bottom line is results. Are they playing better? Looks like they are. Maybe if the players aren't that far apart in ability keeping them fresh has value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|schotzee| Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 37 minutes ago, UncleEarl said: I believe Paul Brown used to shuttle guards in and out to bring in plays. So, there's that. The bottom line is results. Are they playing better? Looks like they are. Maybe if the players aren't that far apart in ability keeping them fresh has value? Excellent point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 40 minutes ago, UncleEarl said: I believe Paul Brown used to shuttle guards in and out to bring in plays. So, there's that. The bottom line is results. Are they playing better? Looks like they are. Maybe if the players aren't that far apart in ability keeping them fresh has value? Well they have radios in the QBs helmet now. I think the real reason is Andre is their best O lineman but he simply can't play every down anymore. Maybe in a few weeks he will be in better game shape. I am not a fan of situational subs on the o line since it is a pretty obvious tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredtoast Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 19 hours ago, LostInDaJungle said: I've been watching football for almost 40 years now, and I cannot remember another time when I saw a team rotate in the Offensive line. Bengals rotate Nate Livings in when Mathis was starting in front of him. Also Bengals rotated Trevor Stephens and Kyle Cook at center when Cook was returning from injury. Cook was still gimpy but they said that they had to limit playbook when Stephens. Other than that I never paid any attention to other teams and when they were rotating offensive linemen. if you look at snaps played it is obvious that almost no team plays just 5 O-linemen every play every game. But no one really pays any attention to how and when they are rotated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostInDaJungle Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 31 minutes ago, fredtoast said: almost no team plays just 5 O-linemen every play every game. https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2017/9/19/16330672/dallas-cowboys-offensive-snap-counts-jason-witten-was-a-lonely-bright-spot-against-denverhttps://www.acmepackingcompany.com/by-the-numbers/2017/10/9/16447074/packers-snap-counts-week-5-more-secondary-injuries-forced-capers-to-adjusthttps://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2016/10/17/redskins-offense-snap-counts-vs-the-eagles-offensive-line-neutralizes-fletcher-cox/http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts That's just the first few from searching "Offensive line snap counts" in Google... Barring injury, and not counting special teams, it looks like the norm is for all five guys to play 100% of the snaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredtoast Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 38 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts That's just the first few from searching "Offensive line snap counts" in Google... Barring injury, and not counting special teams, it looks like the norm is for all five guys to play 100% of the snaps. Most recent numbers are from week 4, but I count 28 O-linemen who played less than 85% of the snaps but more than 10%. I'd say the exact same thing has been happening every week that you have claimed to "never see it before". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostInDaJungle Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 16 minutes ago, fredtoast said: Most recent numbers are from week 4, but I count 28 O-linemen who played less than 85% of the snaps but more than 10%. I'd say the exact same thing has been happening every week that you have claimed to "never see it before". I also see 139 guys who have played all of their teams snaps this year. Take out 5 of the 28 for being Bengals. Steen has been filling in for an injured Mike Pouncey. Skura - Injured Strief - Injured Richburg - Concussion protocol Wisnewski and Warmack are rotating at their position. 1 point for Fred. Barbre and Garcia are rotating - Another point for Fred. And so on... We're down to the under 50% guys at this point, and they mostly mirror the ones above. If you're going to keep putting quotes around stuff, actually quote me instead of making up a straw man you can beat on. This is twice you've tried to attribute quotes to me that are nothing I ever said. I can find two instances of a team rotating one guy at a position. That's going to happen. I wasn't freaked out by Smith coming in here or there for Ced and Fish in weeks prior. But to rotate 3 guys (Redmond, Hopkins, Johnson) at RG and be rotating both tackle spots? That's an outlier. 2 hours ago, fredtoast said: almost no team plays just 5 O-linemen every play every game Ummm, quite the contrary. The majority do play just 5 O-Linemen every play, every game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredtoast Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 On 10/10/2017 at 10:17 AM, LostInDaJungle said: Ummm, quite the contrary. The majority do play just 5 O-Linemen every play, every game. You are correct. I was wrong. But this just means that I can give our canny coaching staff more credit for "thinking outside the box". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostInDaJungle Posted October 12, 2017 Report Share Posted October 12, 2017 12 hours ago, fredtoast said: But this just means that I can give our canny coaching staff more credit for "thinking outside the box". If we win a playoff game this year they'll be hailed as geniuses. If we fail to make the playoffs they'll be pilloried as morons. Stay tuned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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