AN APPRAISAL OF THE "HOLOCAUST" BY THE RED CROSS.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='BengalSIS' post='240892' date='Mar 30 2006, 04:19 PM']Jamie...it's all too much to siphon through for me. Call me lazy. No seriously, you can, cuz I am. But I find...

Doing unto others as I'd have them do unto me is about as simple as it gets for me, and I'll continue to live by that without the need for endless years of research.[/quote]


I can respect that, I just have a desire to quench my thirst for knowledge in this subject and as I said it brings me joy and I share it because of that joy. Not as a way to tell others how to live or to damn them. I dont have that right. So please dont think thats what Im doing, becuse its so not.

[BengalSIS]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='240893' date='Mar 30 2006, 04:24 PM'][quote name='BengalSIS' post='240892' date='Mar 30 2006, 04:19 PM']
Jamie...it's all too much to siphon through for me. Call me lazy. No seriously, you can, cuz I am. But I find...

Doing unto others as I'd have them do unto me is about as simple as it gets for me, and I'll continue to live by that without the need for endless years of research.[/quote]


I can respect that, I just have a desire to quench my thirst for knowledge in this subject and as I said it brings me joy and I share it because of that joy. Not as a way to tell others how to live or to damn them. I dont have that right. So please dont think thats what Im doing, becuse its so not.
[/quote]


I do not get that impression from you. You are safe.


























For now....mwuahahahahahahaha

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='BengalSIS' post='240896' date='Mar 30 2006, 04:28 PM'][quote name='Jamie_B' post='240893' date='Mar 30 2006, 04:24 PM']
[quote name='BengalSIS' post='240892' date='Mar 30 2006, 04:19 PM']
Jamie...it's all too much to siphon through for me. Call me lazy. No seriously, you can, cuz I am. But I find...

Doing unto others as I'd have them do unto me is about as simple as it gets for me, and I'll continue to live by that without the need for endless years of research.[/quote]


I can respect that, I just have a desire to quench my thirst for knowledge in this subject and as I said it brings me joy and I share it because of that joy. Not as a way to tell others how to live or to damn them. I dont have that right. So please dont think thats what Im doing, becuse its so not.
[/quote]


I do not get that impression from you. You are safe.


























For now....mwuahahahahahahaha
[/quote]

[Guest bengalrick]

say what you will about religion, i have seen the power it has.... i'm not talking aobut a spiritial sense necessarily either... when my mom and dad got a divorce when i was 13, my mom had no job and my dad gave us no money... the only reason that my mom didn't lose her house is b/c a friend of my mom took up an offering at church, and they gave us a months worth of rent and a bunch of canned goods and stuff like that... b/c of that, my mom was able to get a job, continued to support my sister and i, and was able to sell that house a year later and was able to use the equity in that house to buy our next house... there is no doubt in my mind, if it wasn' for the church, we would not have gotten through that period of time so easily...

also, i have a good friend who was bad into pills, heroin, OC's, etc... i have know him for about 15 years, and he has been into drugs ever since i've known him... about a year and a half ago, he was caught breaking into one of our other friends house, when she came home, he kept holding the door handle so she couldn't get in, so she called the cops... he got arrested and spent the next couple of months in jail... i saw him for the first time, during the WEBN fireworks last year... we had a 2 hour talk about God and how religion has changed his life... mind you, this wouldn't be quite as big of a deal as bj professing to jesus, but it was in the same league... dude never believed in God before that, and we had many conversations about that also... he has cleared up his life, and is a different person now... the best descriptions i can think of, is he went from bob marley to pat robertson (minus the crazy comments of late) in the short time i hadn't seen him... knowing him, i can tell you that w/out God and his (new) church, he wouldn't be clean right now...

i just wanted to share some benefits of religion that i have personally experienced... religion may cause many problems, but w/out it, i couldn't imagine where we would be....

[|Montana Bengal|]

[quote name='BengalSIS' post='240892' date='Mar 30 2006, 02:19 PM']Doing unto others as I'd have them do unto me is about as simple as it gets for me, and I'll continue to live by that without the need for endless years of research.[/quote]

You hit it right on the head....

[Guest BengalBacker]

Religion can be a crutch that truly does help a lot of people. But that can be said of all religions and it doesn't make any of them true.

It always amazes me the things that people will believe when it comes to religion, as long as it's their religion, yet they wouldn't believe such non-sensical things in any other aspect of their life.

Lately Scientology has been getting universally ridiculed for the belief in Xenu and aliens, or whatever the hell it is they believe. To me, the things Christians believe are just as ridiculous.

Tell me why you don't believe in other religions and you'll have your answer why I don't believe in yours.


I've always agreed with what Sis said. If there is a just and loving higher power, the golden rule is all you need to live by. If that doesn't get you into whatever you define as heaven, then that higher power isn't just and loving. If that higher power isn't just and loving, we're all screwed anyway, no matter what you do. No need to try to figure out what silly rules you need to follow, or what nonsense you have to accept as truth to appease an unjust, unloving god.

We are all capable of convincing ourselves, or being convinced to believe in anything. If you want to be convinced. Whether it's religion or outlandish conspiracy theories.

[Lawman]

[quote name='BigFresh' post='240869' date='Mar 30 2006, 03:25 PM']Hi. I'm BigFresh, long time - no participate. Another member I know personally directed me to this thread thinking it would be of interest to me. There are far too many pages to rehash and respond to without derailing its purpose entirely, so I'm sticking to this page.

[quote name='Lawman' post='240812' date='Mar 30 2006, 01:18 PM']
The dictionary defines cult as "a system of religious worship or ritual"; "devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for, a person, principle, etc.", "a group of followers." [u]This is a typical secular definition[/u] and by it, any believer in any god is a cultist, even atheists since they have an admiration for a principle and are a group of followers of the philosophy of atheism. Therefore, this is too broad a definition since it doesn't sufficiently address the issue of true and false religious systems.[/quote]

I take issue with much of this assertion.

You claim atheists "have an admiration for a principle." What principle is this? What exactly is this "philosophy of atheism?" I'm an atheist and I've never heard of it.

Since you seem to disagree with the "dictionary," I'm not sure if it will have any impact on you to explain that atheism is most basically defined as the position of no belief in god(s). It isn't a philosophy or a worldview. It is the state of the absence of god-belief. The etymology of the word is from Greek [i]a-[/i] the preposition meaning "without," and [i]theos[/i] meaning "belief in god(s)." Without god belief. That's it.

A newborn baby has no belief in god(s). A newborn baby is atheist. Would you say this newborn baby is a student of some philosophy? Many of the pygmy tribes possess no god belief. They are atheists. Do they adhere to or possess admiration for a "principle" you've yet to define? Are they followers of the "philosphy of atheism?"

[quote]inition I use (and other Christian ministries and theologians use as well) for "non-Christian cult" or "non-Christian religion" is a group that may or may not include the Bible in its set of authoritative scriptures. I have provided details of bible authenticity.[/quote]

Bible authenticity? According to what? Authentic in what regard?

[quote]Irrelevance of a deity in Buddahism is enough to classify as a Cult. I will no longer argues this and move on to where I want to go.[/quote]

You're chosing a your own definition (since you disagree with the proverbial dictionary) and applying it and then running away with cotton in your ears. ("I will no longer argue this...et al.") Not terribly reasonable if you ask me.

I know well that there are many definitions of "atheist." There's this one: [i]One who denies the existence of God.[/i] that still seems to be the most popular among non-atheists. To many theists, atheist is a dirty word. Some use as a synonym for an evil person. It's important to be judicious when applying definitions.

In my extensive debates with Christians, I've found a zillion different definitions of what a Christian is used by different denominations and individuals.

A secular person like myself defines a Christian as "One who believes in the religion of Christianity." As you all probably well know, that definition almost never suit an actual believer. Here are a few I've heard.

Christian - [i]One who accepts Jesus as his personal saviors.[/i]
Christian - [i]One who follows the teachings of the New Testament of the Bible.[/i]
Christian - [i]One who attempts to emulate the life of Jesus as depicted in the Bible.[/i]
Christian - [i]One who does good works without desire for reward.[/i] (Obeys the Golden Rule.)
Christian - [i]One who has a "personal relationship" with Christ.[/i]

Ask any Christian what the definition of "Christian" is and he's liable to give you any or all of these plus many, many more I can't think of or haven't heard. Ask that same Christian who rattled off any of the sundry definitions how he would define a Muslim, and you'd probably hear roughly the same thing from all of them. Ask them what the definition of a Buddhist is. Same thing.

It seems to me that a believer will always separate himself from a textbook definiton in order to avoid the stigma it explains: they're just like everybody else.

Atheism is NOT a religion. It is NOT a philosophy. It is merely the quality of being without a god belief. The only reason the word even exists is because god-belief is so common and has been for a very long time. None of us here believes in the Easter Bunny, but we don't feel a need to call ourselves "a-easterbunnyists."
[/quote]

Welcome

Trust me, there is plenty for us to discuss. Please stick around.

[Lawman]

[quote]So you are saying...anyone that doesn't go by the bible isn't practicing a religion, but just part of a cult, therefore you can't answer the question as to whether or not they are going to hell because the comparison can't be made?[/quote]

Yes
The principle of a nontheist is that the existence/non-existence of a diety [God] is irrelevant.

In an after-thought, replace the word Freemasons with United Auto Workers Local 183.

[Homer_Rice]

Recent trends suggest the UAW is making its way to non-existence, too!

I'm interested in a solid, provable basis for ecumenicism. Do such grounds exist?

[Lawman]

[quote]I hate religion. It divides people. It makes people think they are better than others based SOLEY on their beliefs. There are plenty of people that do a hell of a lot more good in this world for other people, animals, and their environment, than some Christians who go to church every Sunday, and then beat and starve their kids all week. You tellin me those Christians beating their kids are going to heaven and the Godless heathens doing only good in the world are going to hell based on their belief or non-belief in Jesus as their Savior? I want no part of that world.[/quote]

BengalSIS,

You and Jamie_B had a good discussion on this subject matter. Stay with me and when (if) I get to the end of what I am trying to present, hopefully some of your views will change.

I [s]hate[/s] don't get religion. It divides people. It makes people think they are better than others based SOLEY on their beliefs.
[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img] First I would like to apologize to anyone If I am leaving this impression. This is not my intent and you will see when (if) I get to the end. I am no better than anyone else in the whole world. I say this with sincere honesty, I know that may be hard for some to accept on how I come off, but it has to be that way.

BengalSiS, you said: [i]Doing unto others as I'd have them do unto me is about as simple as it gets for me, and I'll continue to live by that without the need for endless years of research.[/i]
This has always been my golden role, but there's more to it.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='241202' date='Mar 31 2006, 05:26 AM']Religion can be a crutch that truly does help a lot of people. But that can be said of all religions and it doesn't make any of them true.

It always amazes me the things that people will believe when it comes to religion, as long as it's their religion, yet they wouldn't believe such non-sensical things in any other aspect of their life.

Lately Scientology has been getting universally ridiculed for the belief in Xenu and aliens, or whatever the hell it is they believe. To me, the things Christians believe are just as ridiculous.

Tell me why you don't believe in other religions and you'll have your answer why I don't believe in yours.


I've always agreed with what Sis said. If there is a just and loving higher power, the golden rule is all you need to live by. If that doesn't get you into whatever you define as heaven, then that higher power isn't just and loving. If that higher power isn't just and loving, we're all screwed anyway, no matter what you do. No need to try to figure out what silly rules you need to follow, or what nonsense you have to accept as truth to appease an unjust, unloving god.

We are all capable of convincing ourselves, or being convinced to believe in anything. If you want to be convinced. Whether it's religion or outlandish conspiracy theories.[/quote]

My issues with Scientology arent nessasarly the beliefs themselves, while I disagree with theirs, mostly due the the fact that the ideas are from the mind of a science fiction writer and cant be cross refrerenced from other books (Jesus is mentioned in more than just the bible), the issues I take with them are the gestapo like tatics they use. Here is a site that discusses what Im talking about. [url="http://www.xenu.net/"]http://www.xenu.net/[/url]

[BengalSIS]

[quote name='Lawman' post='241213' date='Mar 31 2006, 07:35 AM'][quote]I hate religion. It divides people. It makes people think they are better than others based SOLEY on their beliefs. There are plenty of people that do a hell of a lot more good in this world for other people, animals, and their environment, than some Christians who go to church every Sunday, and then beat and starve their kids all week. You tellin me those Christians beating their kids are going to heaven and the Godless heathens doing only good in the world are going to hell based on their belief or non-belief in Jesus as their Savior? I want no part of that world.[/quote]

BengalSIS,

You and Jamie_B had a good discussion on this subject matter. Stay with me and when (if) I get to the end of what I am trying to present, hopefully some of your views will change.

I [s]hate[/s] don't get religion. It divides people. It makes people think they are better than others based SOLEY on their beliefs.
[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img] First I would like to apologize to anyone If I am leaving this impression. This is not my intent and you will see when (if) I get to the end. I am no better than anyone else in the whole world. I say this with sincere honesty, I know that may be hard for some to accept on how I come off, but it has to be that way.

BengalSiS, you said: [i]Doing unto others as I'd have them do unto me is about as simple as it gets for me, and I'll continue to live by that without the need for endless years of research.[/i]
This has always been my golden role, but there's more to it.
[/quote]


Here's where you are wrong Lawman. You assume that if I don't like (don't "get") religion, that once I learn about it, I will change my mind. I DO get it. I want no part of it. I grew up in a Southern baptist environment, although not in my immediate household. I saw people doing good things, and I saw hypocrites. I also saw perfectly content people who do good deeds for others who didn't go to church. I never learned the stories in the bible except the few times I joined my grandmother in sunday school (she was the teacher). I have found that their are good people all around and I don't have to ask their religion to find out about them. I only have to watch their actions and words. [b]Actions speak louder than words[/b]. I determine how much I like someone or how I view them as a person by their actions. Religion is a divisive tool used to separate people by their beliefs. Almost immediately, the nonbeliever is treated as someone who is "lost" or deliberately going the wrong direction. The believer, in turn, tries to "help" the lost, and shuns the one who they believe is going the wrong way intentionally. How about we just live our lives? If someone ASKS for help, by all means, show them the path that works for you. If not, leave em alone. I"m not saying all people of faith do that, but many do. Otherwise there wouldn't be the religious strife in the world that their is. If God is to be the true judge, then how could he justify the wars and killing done in his name?

I'm rambling here, I know, but you won't change my mind Lawman. The only person who could change my mind is God himself. If he doesn't care about me as his "child" enough to convince me, then so be it.

[Lawman]

So, where were we? Oh yes, Adolf Hitler was Catholic. Now, I am not here to bash Catholics (and any other Religon for that matter). Taking pot shots at the Roman Catholic is not my agenda, plus that would be too easy.

Early, I reported a claim that Hitler wanted to pay the Spainish like 10,000 Deutsch Marks per Jew but was rebuked. What was the dominant religon at the time? I would wager the same one that was in place prior to 1930's and has been since?

I wanted to share something with you. I previously mentioned the Jewish fellow I work with, but addition I have two young female's:

1) 30 single-parent, former Marine, born in Coasta Rico. She left her daughter (5) in order to further her Education. Very pretty, but possess a strong disposition and carry's a scar(heart) left from daughter's father.
Roman Catholic, always mention Saints that pray for her.

2) 23 Married, tow-kids. Italian decent, husband of German decent (very profound characteristics, blond hair blues eyes with a large build). Roman catholic.

Girl #2 mentioned out loud one day that she needed to pray to St. Anthony. Ignorant to the fact, I asked the question who is St. Anthony. She explained "he was the saint you pray to in order to help find something lost".
Ok, so you know me, I ask " why not pray to Jesus" her reply " I am not Christian, I am Catholic".
Of course my jaw dropped , but after my initial shock, I knew why she said that.



The sad part is that the thing she lost is the love for her husband.


Once the Communist came to power, they skillfully used the means of seduction toward the church. The language of love and the language of seduction are the same. The one who wishes a girl for a wife and one that wishes a girl for one night say the same thing "I love you". In this day and age it probably takes less than that but you have to agree is this not what all girls want to hear?

Unfortunately, when the Communist came to power, thousands of priest, pastors and ministers did not know how to discern between the two voices. The Communist convened a congress of all Christian bodies in the Romanian Parliment building. There were four thousand priest, pastors and ministers assembled of all denominations-they voted Josef Stalin as the honorary President of this congress. At the same time he was
President of the World Movement of the Godless and a mass murderer of christians.

What was Stalin's family lineagy of religon again?

to be continued ...........

[Lawman]

[quote name='BengalSIS' post='241229' date='Mar 31 2006, 08:49 AM'][quote name='Lawman' post='241213' date='Mar 31 2006, 07:35 AM']
[quote]I hate religion. It divides people. It makes people think they are better than others based SOLEY on their beliefs. There are plenty of people that do a hell of a lot more good in this world for other people, animals, and their environment, than some Christians who go to church every Sunday, and then beat and starve their kids all week. You tellin me those Christians beating their kids are going to heaven and the Godless heathens doing only good in the world are going to hell based on their belief or non-belief in Jesus as their Savior? I want no part of that world.[/quote]

BengalSIS,

You and Jamie_B had a good discussion on this subject matter. Stay with me and when (if) I get to the end of what I am trying to present, hopefully some of your views will change.

I [s]hate[/s] don't get religion. It divides people. It makes people think they are better than others based SOLEY on their beliefs.
[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img] First I would like to apologize to anyone If I am leaving this impression. This is not my intent and you will see when (if) I get to the end. I am no better than anyone else in the whole world. I say this with sincere honesty, I know that may be hard for some to accept on how I come off, but it has to be that way.

BengalSiS, you said: [i]Doing unto others as I'd have them do unto me is about as simple as it gets for me, and I'll continue to live by that without the need for endless years of research.[/i]
This has always been my golden role, but there's more to it.
[/quote]


Here's where you are wrong Lawman. You assume that if I don't like (don't "get") religion, that once I learn about it, I will change my mind. I DO get it. I want no part of it. I grew up in a Southern baptist environment, although not in my immediate household. I saw people doing good things, and I saw hypocrites. I also saw perfectly content people who do good deeds for others who didn't go to church. I never learned the stories in the bible except the few times I joined my grandmother in sunday school (she was the teacher). I have found that their are good people all around and I don't have to ask their religion to find out about them. I only have to watch their actions and words. [b]Actions speak louder than words[/b]. I determine how much I like someone or how I view them as a person by their actions. Religion is a divisive tool used to separate people by their beliefs. Almost immediately, the nonbeliever is treated as someone who is "lost" or deliberately going the wrong direction. The believer, in turn, tries to "help" the lost, and shuns the one who they believe is going the wrong way intentionally. How about we just live our lives? If someone ASKS for help, by all means, show them the path that works for you. If not, leave em alone. I"m not saying all people of faith do that, but many do. Otherwise there wouldn't be the religious strife in the world that their is. If God is to be the true judge, then how could he justify the wars and killing done in his name?

I'm rambling here, I know, but you won't change my mind Lawman. The only person who could change my mind is God himself. If he doesn't care about me as his "child" enough to convince me, then so be it.
[/quote]

please stay with me, there is more to come. I was a Southern Baptist also, shortly I will explain my position for current board members.

[Jamie_B]

[quote]Actions speak louder than words[/quote]

Faith witout works is dead. .... So we agree.

[quote]If someone ASKS for help, by all means, show them the path that works for you.[/quote]

I view that the same way, when Chistians talk about being your brothers keeper, this is exactly how I'd respond to it.

[BengalSIS]

[quote name='Lawman' post='241233' date='Mar 31 2006, 09:04 AM'][quote name='BengalSIS' post='241229' date='Mar 31 2006, 08:49 AM']
[quote name='Lawman' post='241213' date='Mar 31 2006, 07:35 AM']
[quote]I hate religion. It divides people. It makes people think they are better than others based SOLEY on their beliefs. There are plenty of people that do a hell of a lot more good in this world for other people, animals, and their environment, than some Christians who go to church every Sunday, and then beat and starve their kids all week. You tellin me those Christians beating their kids are going to heaven and the Godless heathens doing only good in the world are going to hell based on their belief or non-belief in Jesus as their Savior? I want no part of that world.[/quote]

BengalSIS,

You and Jamie_B had a good discussion on this subject matter. Stay with me and when (if) I get to the end of what I am trying to present, hopefully some of your views will change.

I [s]hate[/s] don't get religion. It divides people. It makes people think they are better than others based SOLEY on their beliefs.
[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img] First I would like to apologize to anyone If I am leaving this impression. This is not my intent and you will see when (if) I get to the end. I am no better than anyone else in the whole world. I say this with sincere honesty, I know that may be hard for some to accept on how I come off, but it has to be that way.

BengalSiS, you said: [i]Doing unto others as I'd have them do unto me is about as simple as it gets for me, and I'll continue to live by that without the need for endless years of research.[/i]
This has always been my golden role, but there's more to it.
[/quote]


Here's where you are wrong Lawman. You assume that if I don't like (don't "get") religion, that once I learn about it, I will change my mind. I DO get it. I want no part of it. I grew up in a Southern baptist environment, although not in my immediate household. I saw people doing good things, and I saw hypocrites. I also saw perfectly content people who do good deeds for others who didn't go to church. I never learned the stories in the bible except the few times I joined my grandmother in sunday school (she was the teacher). I have found that their are good people all around and I don't have to ask their religion to find out about them. I only have to watch their actions and words. [b]Actions speak louder than words[/b]. I determine how much I like someone or how I view them as a person by their actions. Religion is a divisive tool used to separate people by their beliefs. Almost immediately, the nonbeliever is treated as someone who is "lost" or deliberately going the wrong direction. The believer, in turn, tries to "help" the lost, and shuns the one who they believe is going the wrong way intentionally. How about we just live our lives? If someone ASKS for help, by all means, show them the path that works for you. If not, leave em alone. I"m not saying all people of faith do that, but many do. Otherwise there wouldn't be the religious strife in the world that their is. If God is to be the true judge, then how could he justify the wars and killing done in his name?

I'm rambling here, I know, but you won't change my mind Lawman. The only person who could change my mind is God himself. If he doesn't care about me as his "child" enough to convince me, then so be it.
[/quote]

please stay with me, there is more to come. I was a Southern Baptist also, shortly I will explain my position for current board members.
[/quote]


I'm staying with you for now, but...you've got a long way to go.

[Lawman]

[b]Disclaimer: I copied the questions into Microsoft Word, answered, then pasted into the reply box.[/b]

[quote]You claim atheists "have an admiration for a principle." What principle is this? What exactly is this "philosophy of atheism?" I'm an atheist and I've never heard of it.[/quote]

The principle I refer actually falls into two category’s
1) the lack of evidence category where the atheist asserts that the supporting evidence isn't good enough for him to affirm God's existence.
2) The second is the category where they believe that the idea of God existing is illogical and contrary to the evidence at hand.

Though there is no definitive atheist organization that defines the absolutes of atheism, there are basic principles that atheists, as a whole, tend to adopt.
Examples: There is no such thing as sin as a violation of God's will; man is material; generally, the universe is materialistic and measurable etc…
Not all atheists assert all of these principles, the only absolute common one they hold to is that they do not believe in a God or gods.

[quote]Since you seem to disagree with the "dictionary," I'm not sure if it will have any impact on you to explain that atheism is most basically defined as the position of no belief in god(s). It isn't a philosophy or a worldview. It is the state of the absence of god-belief. The etymology of the word is from Greek a- the preposition meaning "without," and theos meaning "belief in god(s)." Without god belief. That's it.[/quote]

This definition is very familiar to me, thank you very much.

[quote]A newborn baby has no belief in god(s). A newborn baby is atheist. Would you say this newborn baby is a student of some philosophy?[/quote]
I give you this:

“Suppose that we could speak with an embryo in his mother’s womb and that you would tell him that
the embryonic life is a short one after which follows is real and long. He would say just what you atheists
answer to us that, when we speak to you about paradise and hell. He would say that life in his mother’s womb is the only one and that everything else is religious foolishness. But if the embryo could think, he would say to himself “here arms grow on me. I do not need them. I cannot even stretch them. Why do they grow? Perhaps they grow for a future stage of my existence, in which I will have to work with them. Legs grow, but I have to keep them bent to my chest. Why do they grow? Probably life in a large world
follows where I will have to walk. Eyes grow, but I am surrounded by darkness and don’t need them.
Why do I have eyes? Probably a world with light and colors will follow?
So, if the embryo would reflect on his own development, he would know about a life outside of his mother’s womb, without having seen it. It is the same with us. As long as we are young, we have vigor,
but no mind to use it properly. When with the years, we have grown in a knowledge and wisdom, the
hearse waits to take us to the grave. Why was it necessary to grow in a knowledge and wisdom that
we can use no more? Why do arms, legs, and eyes grow in the embryo? It is for what follows. We grow here in experience, knowledge and wisdom for what follows. We are prepared to serve on a higher level that follows death.

[quote]Many of the pygmy tribes possess no god belief. They are atheists. Do they adhere to or possess admiration for a "principle" you've yet to define? Are they followers of the "philosphy of atheism?"[/quote]

Good question. I think you can find the answer in Romans 2:11-16
It speaks about those who have never heard the Law of God and how they will be judged according to the law that is written in their hearts. The Law written in their hearts is the knowledge of right and wrong. Perhaps God's judgment of those without a proper knowledge of Him is included there where it says that they will be judged according to their own consciences that "bear witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them." All I know is that God will do what is right and the only way to have your sins forgiven is through Jesus.

[quote]Bible authenticity? According to what? Authentic in what regard?[/quote]

The New Testament is constantly under attack and its reliability and accuracy are often contested by critics. But, if the critics want to disregard the New Testament, then they must also disregard other ancient writings by Plato, Aristotle, and Homer. This is because the New Testament documents are better preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writing. Because the copies are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy. This process has determined that the biblical documents are extremely consistent and accurate.
There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament. If we were to compare the number of New Testament manuscripts to other ancient writings, we find that the New Testament manuscripts far outweigh the others in quantity.
Example:
Homer (Iliad) Date written: 900BC Earliest copy: 400BC Aprox. Time span between Originial/Copy:
500 years Number of copies: 643 Accuracy of copies: 95%

NT Date written: 1st Cent. A.D. (50-100 A.D.) Earliest copy: 2nd Cent. A.D.
(c. 130 A.D.) Aprox. Time span between Originial/Copy: less than 100 years
Number of copies: 5,686 Accuracy of copies: 99.5%

[quote]You're choosing a your own definition (since you disagree with the proverbial dictionary) and applying it and then running away with cotton in your ears. ("I will no longer argue this...et al.") Not terribly reasonable if you ask me.[/quote]

The question was answered twice, with differing perspectives. I explained my reasoning for the first answer. IMHO, this was a circular argument heading nowhere.

As for your last part,

Some people try to become Christians for the wrong reasons. You do not become a Christian because you want to give Jesus a try, or because you want to see if your life gets better, or if you want to experiment with religion, or you want your life to improve, or you just want to see what happens. If you "tried" Christianity for any of these reasons, then you're probably not a Christian to begin with unless you came to a true understanding of what it is.
Become a Christian because you know that you are a sinner and that God will punish all who have sinned and you want to find salvation, the deliverance from the righteous judgment of God. The result of this salvation is that the Lord then lives in you and the result of that is your life will improve. The reason there are different denominations within Christianity is because the Bible allows for us to have differences of opinions. Within Christianity there are very few essential doctrines that define what it means to be a Christian. These essential doctrines are,
1.Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4).
2.Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
3.Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4).
4.The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9).
5.There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)
6.God exists as a Trinity of persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (See Trinity)
7.Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary (nature of incarnation)

Sadly, there is another reason for denominational differences and that is the failure of Christians to live according to the will of God. The truth is that we are all sinners and we do not see things eye to eye. It is an unfortunate truth that denominational differences are due to our shortsightedness and lack of love. But, the good thing is that God loves us so much that He puts up with our failures. There waits for us, in spite of our differences, a great reward in heaven. Neither salvation nor damnation is dependent upon our differences. Our salvation is based on our relationship with Christ.

Jesus is presented as an historical figure by reputable people in both secular and sacred historical writings. The Easter bunny is simply presented as a fictional character.

Now I have answered your question to the best of my ability, can you answer mine.

What positive evidence is there that disproves God's existence?

When you open your Sunday paper, look at the date. From where is that date derived?

Will you reveal the individual that sent you to question me?

[BengalSIS]

I think I'm just gonna hafta agree to disagree here.

[|Bunghole|]

"Love thy neighbor as thyself" is God, as it is an admirable, yet impossible task for selfish human beings to achieve.

[Lawman]

Orphaned at a young age, born a Romanian Jew and self proclaimed atheist; Richard Wurmbrand was introduced to Christ by none other than a carpenter. The old carpenter, high in the Romanian mountains,
Prayed like this:
“My God, I have served you on earth and I wish to have my reward on earth as well as in heaven. And my reward should be that I not die before I bring a Jew to Christ, because Jesus was from the Jewish people.
(Jesus lineage can be traced backed to King David). Bring a Jew into my village and I will do my best to bring him to Christ. That Jew was Richard Wurmbrand.

Soon after his conversion, his wife was converted. Eventually he became the head of a Lutheran congregation. Shortly thereafter, came the Nazi’s and much suffering. In Romania the Nazi’s prosecuted
the Protestants as well as Jews. His son, Mihai, had to assume a non-Jewish name.
But these Nazi’s time had a great advantage, they taught them how to endure physical beatings and that the human spirit with God’s help can survive horrible tortures.
They taught them the technique of secret Christian work, which was a preparation for a far worse ordeal to come. (The secret Christian works was to become known as the Underground Church.)

Out of remorse for his atheist views, Pastor Wurmbrand yearned for the opportunity to witness to the Russian people. The Russian people are raised from childhood to be atheist. (under Communist rule).
His first conversion was an imprisoned Russian engineer. The pastor asked the question, “Do you believe in God” the prisoner replied “I have no such military order to believe, if I have an order to believe I will believe.” Totally brainwashed, he could not think on his own. This was a typical Russian under Communist domination. Brother Wurmbrand promised God that he would dedicate his life to these men to give them back their personalities, and to give them faith in God and Christ.

COMMUNIST COME TO POWER IN ROMANIA

August 23, 1944 a million Russian soldiers entered Romania and shortly thereafter came Communist rule. Romania had approximately a population of 24 million with only 10,000 Communist Party members.
The Foreign Secretary of the Soviet Union, Vishinsky, stormed into the office of King Michael I, and stated
“You will appoint Communist members to government”. The Romanian army and police were disarmed and disbanded; all under the approval of the American and British rulers of the time.

I have already mentioned what was happening to the churches. They were compromised. The Bishops and priest exchanged the cross symbols on their robes with cycles and hammers and were to be refered as “Commrade Bishop”. I have previously mentioned the congress where Stalin was elected Honorary President. Here is where Pastor Wurmbrand’s fate turned.
One minister after another praised Communism and loyalty from the church. The pastor and his wife,
Sabina were in attendance. Sabina told him “Richard, standup and wash away this shame from the face of Christ! They are spitting in his face” his reply to her “If I do so, you lose your husband” She replied”
I do not wish to have a coward as a husband”. He arose and addressed the congress, praising not the
Murderer’s of Christians, but Jesus Christ, stating that our loyalty is due first to him. The speeches
at the congress were broadcast and the whole country could hear proclaimed from the rostrum of the
Communist Parliament the message of Christ! He would pay dearly later, but claims it was worth it.

Orthodox and Baptist church leaders competed with each other in yielding to communism. Rapp,
Deputy Bishop of the Lutheran church in Romania claimed that God had given three revelations:
one through Moses; one through Jesus; and the third through Stalin.
Attending the congress of Baptist in the town of Resita – a congress under the Red Flag, wher the anthem of the Soviet union was sung with everyone standing. The president of the Baptist praised Stalin as a great teacher of the Bible and proclaimed that Stalin did nothing but fulfill the commandment of God!

It must be understood that the true Baptist, did not agree, and were very faithful to Christ,
suffering very much. However, the Communist elected their religious leaders and the Baptist (congregation) had no choice but to accept them.

The same conditions exist today in Communist nations among the very top religious leadership of the “Official” church.


To be continued …… Tales of Unspeakable Acts

[Guest BengalBacker]

[quote name='Lawman' post='242114' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:17 PM']The New Testament is constantly under attack and its reliability and accuracy are often contested by critics. But, if the critics want to disregard the New Testament, then they must also disregard other ancient writings by Plato, Aristotle, and Homer. This is because the New Testament documents are better preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writing. Because the copies are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy. This process has determined that the biblical documents are extremely consistent and accurate.
There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament. If we were to compare the number of New Testament manuscripts to other ancient writings, we find that the New Testament manuscripts far outweigh the others in quantity.
Example:
Homer (Iliad) Date written: 900BC Earliest copy: 400BC Aprox. Time span between Originial/Copy:
500 years Number of copies: 643 Accuracy of copies: 95%

NT Date written: 1st Cent. A.D. (50-100 A.D.) Earliest copy: 2nd Cent. A.D.
(c. 130 A.D.) Aprox. Time span between Originial/Copy: less than 100 years
Number of copies: 5,686 Accuracy of copies: 99.5%[/quote]

Saying that many of the people and places talked about in the bible really existed in no way validates the claims of the bible. Proof that Jesus existed (many say he didn't, but let's say you can prove that he did) isn't proof that he was the son of god, born of a virgin.

[Lawman]

[url="http://home.pacbell.net/andrea/wurmbrandbio.html"]http://home.pacbell.net/andrea/wurmbrandbio.html[/url] This is a little easier.

Pastor Richard Wurmbrand is an evangelical minister who spent fourteen years in Communist imprisonment and torture in his homeland of Romania. He is one of Romania's most widely known Jewish Believer leaders, authors, and educators. In 1945, when the Communists seized Romania and attempted to control the churches for their purposes, Richard Wurmbrand immediately began an effective "underground" ministry to his enslaved people and the invading Russian soldiers. He was eventually arrested in 1948. Richard spent three years in solitary confinement, seeing no one but his Communist torturers.
His wife , Sabina, also Jewish, was a slave laborer for three years. Due to his international stature as a Messianic Jewish leader, diplomats of foreign embassies asked the Communist government about his safety. They were told he had fled Romania. Secret police, posing as released fellow prisoners, told his wife of attending his burial in the prison cemetery. Pastor Wurmbrand was released in a general amnesty in 1964. Realizing the great danger of a third imprisonment, Christians in Norway negotiated with the Communist authorities for his release from Romania. The "going price" for a prisoner was $1,900. Their price for Wurmbrand was $10,000. In May 1966, he testified in Washington before the Senate's Internal Security Subcommittee and stripped to the waist to show eighteen deep torture wounds covering his body. His story was carried across the world newspapers in the U.S., Europe, and Asia.

Not many women have their faith tested like Sabina Wurmbrand. Her husband, Pastor Richard Wurmbrand, was imprisoned and tortured for his faith for fourteen years. Many times the communists told her, "Divorce him, he is dead". But Sabina listened to the still small voice of God, knowing her husband was alive. During that time, Sabina selflessly helped other Believers of the Underground Church they had started together while struggling hard for her own and her little son's survival. Sabina was subjected to unbelievable hardships and suffering. The Nazi's murdered her parents, 4 siblings, and 5 adopted children, yet she never became bitter or resentful [u]but continued to show love to all.[/u] Sabina never relented in her endeavors to continue the work her husband had begun, to unite the Underground Church. Living in daily fear of discovery, her faith was tested to the limit and held firm to her love of the God of Israel. She herself was arrested for subversive evangelism in 1948 in Romania and spent three years as a slave laborer on the never completed Danube Canal.
Nevertheless, she survived to tell her story and is truly a remarkable woman of God.
Her book, "The Pastor's Wife" is a must for every one to read.

Their son Mahai was left homeless. It was illegal for anyone to aid the child of an imprisoned Christian.
One kind woman, that took him in, was beaten and imprisoned herself for eight years.

[Lawman]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='242472' date='Apr 2 2006, 05:40 PM'][quote name='Lawman' post='242114' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:17 PM']
The New Testament is constantly under attack and its reliability and accuracy are often contested by critics. But, if the critics want to disregard the New Testament, then they must also disregard other ancient writings by Plato, Aristotle, and Homer. This is because the New Testament documents are better preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writing. Because the copies are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy. This process has determined that the biblical documents are extremely consistent and accurate.
There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament. If we were to compare the number of New Testament manuscripts to other ancient writings, we find that the New Testament manuscripts far outweigh the others in quantity.
Example:
Homer (Iliad) Date written: 900BC Earliest copy: 400BC Aprox. Time span between Originial/Copy:
500 years Number of copies: 643 Accuracy of copies: 95%

NT Date written: 1st Cent. A.D. (50-100 A.D.) Earliest copy: 2nd Cent. A.D.
(c. 130 A.D.) Aprox. Time span between Originial/Copy: less than 100 years
Number of copies: 5,686 Accuracy of copies: 99.5%[/quote]

Saying that many of the people and places talked about in the bible really existed in no way validates the claims of the bible. Proof that Jesus existed (many say he didn't, but let's say you can prove that he did) [/quote]

Flavius Josephus (37-101 A.D) was a Jewish priest at the time of the Jewish Revolt of A.D. 66. He was captured by the Romans, imprisoned, set free and then retired to Rome where he wrote a history of the Jewish Revolt called the "Jewish War." Later he wrote "Antiquities" as a history of the Jews.
Following is a brief listing of some other people and places mentioned by Josephus that correspond to biblical mention. They demonstrate that the Bible is not alone in its description of people, events, and places. It is verified by other sources. Remember, the Jews did not believe Jesus was the Messiah.

Antiquitie:
Herod is mentioned numerous times
17:8:1, "And now Herod altered his testament upon the alteration of his mind..."
18.5.3, "Whereupon he ordered the army to march along the Great Plain, while he himself, with [u]Herod the tetrarch[/u], and his friends, went up to Jerusalem to offer sacrifice to God, an ancient festival of the Jews being then just approaching."
Bible:
Luke 3:1 "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, and [u]Herod was tetrarch [/u] of Galilee, and his brother Philip was tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene."

Antiquitie:
18:3:3, "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."
Bible: well we know Jesus is mentioned in the Bible.

Antiquitie:18.5.2 Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and was a very just punishment for what he did against [u]John called the Baptist [/u] [the dipper]. For Herod had him killed, although he was a good man and had urged the Jews to exert themselves to virtue, both as to justice toward one another and reverence towards

Bible:
Matt 3;1-2 Now in those days [u]John the Baptist [/u] *came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, 2"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

There are many more, but I think you get the idea.

Very Important Prophecy to note:

[u]None of the gospels mention [/u] the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D. This is significant because Jesus had prophesied concerning the temple when He said "As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down," (Luke 21:5, see also Matt. 24:1; Mark 13:1). This prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when the Romans sacked Jerusalem and burned the temple. The gold in the temple melted down between the stone walls and the Romans took the walls apart, stone by stone, to get the gold. Such an obvious fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy most likely would have been recorded as such by the gospel writers who were fond of mentioning fulfillment of prophecy if they had been written after 70 A.D. Also, if the gospels were fabrications of mythical events then anything to bolster the Messianic claims -- such as the destruction of the temple as Jesus said -- would surely have been included. [u]But, it was not included suggesting that the gospels (at least Matthew, Mark, and Luke) were written before 70 A.D.[/u] Jeseus crucifixation was approx: 30 AD.

[quote]isn't proof that he was the son of god, born of a virgin.[/quote]

Matthew 1 (I skipped all the begats; but this important one):

1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the [u]son of David[/u] remember this you may see it later on ), the son of Abraham.

17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, [u]a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.[/u]

I believe there is a planet called Uranus out in there inour galaxy, I personally have not seen it, but others have and they have all this fancy equipment to prove it. But, I have yet to see it personally and I still believe it exist.

[Lawman]

[quote]I believe there is a planet called Uranus out in there in our galaxy, I personally have not seen it, but others have and they have all this fancy equipment to prove it. But, I have yet to see it personally and I still believe it exist.[/quote]

I almost forgot; Uranus has an Aurora














I remembered that from the Trivial Pursuit game

[BengalSIS]

Lawman, using the bible to prove anything is a waste of time as far as I'm concerned. If I don't believe the validity of those words, then those words can't be proof for the beliefs associated with them.