Injury lists during preseason

[oldschooler]

[quote]August 20, 2007
[size=5][b]Knock-knees and flat feet (but don't say big and tall feet)[/b][/size]
A couple tidbits from the locker room:

Levi Jones wasn't happy about an ESPN.com report by Len Pasquarelli that suggested his knee problems stemmed from being knock-kneed and fellow offensive tackle Willie Anderson's foot problems were caused by flat feet.
"Our knock-kneed and flat-footed tackles, that’s why we’re all hurt anyway. I guess that’s what was said," Jones said to reporters unaware of the report.
"I don't know who he got it from. Go read it. It's quite amusing."
Jones was chuckling, but he really wasn't amused.

Willie Anderson is a delightful guy and provides much trenchant insight on the team. But he does get his bee in a bonnet occasionally. Today Anderson took umbrage -- playfully -- about the size of his feet and the types of shoe stores he must frequent.
Though the Bengals media guide says Anderson wears a size 19EEE shoe, he says he really wears size 18.
"That’s just something (PR director) Jack (Brennan) made up my rookie year," Anderson said. "I’ve never worn 19s."
Then he took offense when it was suggested he must shop at the shoe-store equivalent of a Big and Tall store because Anderson is, well, big and tall.
"Having that store name, big and tall, is something bad," he said," getting on a Blutarskian roll. "To say big and tall store is discrimination. Kids roll by and say, 'Oh, this is where those big gigantic people shop.'
"People think since you’ve got bigger feet, you have to special order your shoes. I go right into the store and pick them up. Friedman’s Shoes. I walk right into the store and get any kind of shoe I want."
Friedman's is a shoe store in Atlanta, where Anderson lives in the offseason. It bills itself as a "large size shoe store." Its website, as the Cincinnati Post's Kevin Goheen discovered, is www.largefeet.com.
At least it's not bigandlargefeet.com.[/quote]




[url="http://www.dispatch.com/dispatch/content/sports/blog_rabinowitz.html"]http://www.dispatch.com/dispatch/content/s...rabinowitz.html[/url]

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='531137' date='Aug 21 2007, 12:06 PM']Watching Willie's video from 8/20, he seems just as frustrated with the reporter's portrayal of his (alleged?) frustration, "You guys are powerful."

Many times arriving at a correct diagnosis is a [i]process,[/i] not a one time snap shot of time. Some diagnoses are termed a "diagnosis of exclusion," meaning you eliminate all other possibilities before arriving at the final, correct diagnosis.

Let's take the case of a sports hernia which is a tear in musculature of the abdominal wall creating a small hole. A sports hernia and an abdominal strain are caused by the same mechanisms of injury. They both have the same symptoms. The physical exam is usually the same. Most sports hernias can't be seen or felt. Usually, an ultrasound is used to detect a sports hernia; but even ultrasounds aren't 100% accurate/sensitive in detecting sports hernias.

So if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck...it's a duck. If your duck is still painful in 2-4 weeks, we'll re-evaluate.

When money and medical assests are practically unlimited, where do you draw the line when ordering tests and procedures?

Does every player with a headache get a CT, MRI, and MRA of his head and brain?

Does every player with neck stiffness get a lumbar puncture?

If a player gets diarrhea, his ass gets irritated from wiping it all day, and he notices a small amount of blood on the toilet tissue...is it realistic to expect the Bengal's medical staff to pack his ass full of barium, shoot xrays, and then weave a 6' fiber optic scope through his anus, rectum, sigmoid colon, ascending colon, transverse colon, descending colon, and ending at the cecum looking for colon cancer? Because as we all know, rectal bleeding is cancer until proven otherwise.[/quote]

[quote]Anderson, sans the boot, wanted to dispel any notions Monday that he is thinking about anything other than being able to play against the Ravens. [b]While he was disappointed that he needed to get a second opinion to discover the true nature of the foot injury that has plagued him since last season, Anderson is just happy to have the correct diagnosis[/b].[/quote]

Also, this is not a case of "diagnosis by exclusion"......it's been misdiagnosed for almost a year now. Willie himself said that if it had been diagnosed correctly earlier, he could have had this procedure done back in January. He had to get another opinion and that's how they dianosed it correctly. Don't you think the Bengals' staff would keep checking in on the injury which happened a year ago to see what they could "exclude" as time went on?

There is no doubt that the Bengals' medical staff is lacking ............ look at the evidence. I think that was Storm's point also.

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='531222' date='Aug 21 2007, 12:38 PM']Also, this is not a case of "diagnosis by exclusion"......it's been misdiagnosed for almost a year now. Willie himself said that if it had been diagnosed correctly earlier, he could have had this procedure done back in January. He had to get another opinion and that's how they dianosed it correctly. Don't you think the Bengals' staff would keep checking in on the injury which happened a year ago to see what they could "exclude" as time went on?

There is no doubt that the Bengals' medical staff is lacking ............ look at the evidence. I think that was Storm's point also.[/quote]
Evidence?

Do we know when Willie's injury occurred? Did it happen in August during training camp or December? We don't know.

Do we know how the injury occurred? No

Can we believe "heel pain" is the true nature of the injury? No

Do we know how Willie described the injury and his symptoms? No

Do we know what the doctor found during the physical exam? No

Do we know what tests or procedures were ordered? No

Do we know the results of any tests or procedures? No

Do we know the doctor's diagnosis? No

Do we know the differential diagnosis? No

Do we know the treatment plan? No

Do we know if Willie was compliant with the treatment plan? No

Do we know what type of specialist Willie saw for his second opinion? No

Do we know what tests or procedures the specialist ordered/preformed? No

Do we know these results? No

Do we know the specialist's diagnosis? No

Do we know if the specialist's diagnosis is any more accurate the the intitial diagnosis? No

I'm overwhelmed by the evidence.

No, this isn't a diagnosis of exclusion. I didn't say it was. I said "some diagnoses are termed a 'diagnosis of exclusion.'" But, this is a perfect example of how you arrive at a diagnosis through a [i]process[/i].

I'll explain:

Willie has heel pain and I bet his 15EEE feet are flat as boards, maybe some valgus deformity of his ankles. He probably had diffuse tenderness around the medial tubercle of the calcaneus. An xray probably showed a calcaneal osteophyte at the insertion of the plantar fascia. So that means Plantar Fasciitis is staring you in the face saying, "Pick me! Pick me! Oooooooooh, pick me! I want to be the diagnosis! Pleeeeeeaaaaaasssssseeeeee?" Like I said, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck...it's a duck, not a zebra. So plantar fasciitis it is.

The #1 treatment for plantar fasciitis is avoid the activity causing the pain. The #2 treatment is called Tincture of Time, you have to give your body time to heal. Option 1 and 2 aren't realistic if you are a professional football player unless...it's the offseason. There is also ice, NSAIDs, stretching, custom orthotics, night time strapping, maybe even a corticosteroid injection once every 3-4 months. Plantar fasciitis is a notoriously chronic and frustrating condition to have and to treat because none of the options work very effectively or quickly. Willie was probably told the pain would resolve if he rested it during the offseason. He came back to camp, still in pain. Hmmm, something isn't right. Did he go back to the training staff to continue the medical evaluation process? Or did he automatically seek a second opinion? Once again, we don't know.

Tarsal Tunnel Syndrome can cause heel pain in the same distribution as plantar fasciitis. Unlike plantar fasciitis, it isn't very common. It's a zebra, not a duck. How do you diagnosis TTS? With an EMG. An EMG involves inserting needles into specific muscles (depending upon which nerve you want to test) and having the patient alternately contract and relax those muscles while passing an electrical current through the needles in order to assess the functioning of the nerve being tested. The patient's I've seen have an EMG seemed to be having an orgasm because they kept saying, "Oh, god. Oh, God. Oh, GAAAWD," during the testing.

TTS can be treated with a surgical procedure to release pressure upon the affected nerve. It's very similar to Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and surgical release of the median nerve.

I'm sure you already know all of this and I'm just wasting your time and mine. This is in no way evidence of any kind and just wild speculation.

It's a damn shame the Bengal's staff isn't perfect like you and me. Or is that 'you and I.' Shit! Now, I'm not perfect!

[fredtoast]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='531625' date='Aug 22 2007, 10:35 AM']Do we know if the specialist's diagnosis is any more accurate the the intitial diagnosis? No[/quote]


Considering that Willie said it was then I say this is abig "YES". You have thesame problem that a lot of doctors do. You want to talk and show how smart you are more than you want to listen. The patient has said that the second opinion has resulted in a correct diagnosis. If you learn to pay more attention then maybe you won't be making as many wrong diagnosis.

Do you really think that Willie just saw the bengals doctor once last year and has not been in for any follow up since? Is that what a competent doctor would do?

The ONE thing that we do know is that willie had to see another doctor before he got the proper diagnosis after being under the care of the Bengals doctors for almost a year. If the bengals didn;t do any follow up tests in all of that time when the foot was not respondong properly for treatment then thnat is their fault.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='530384' date='Aug 19 2007, 02:06 PM']i think willie is lazy[/quote]

Willie has been voted as the NUMBER ONE right tackle in the entire league for three straight years and has started in over 100 straight games. Those are sure sure signs of laziness.

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='fredtoast' post='531646' date='Aug 22 2007, 11:25 AM']Considering that Willie said it was then I say this is abig "YES". You have thesame problem that a lot of doctors do. You want to talk and show how smart you are more than you want to listen. The patient has said that the second opinion has resulted in a correct diagnosis. If you learn to pay more attention then maybe you won't be making as many wrong diagnosis.

Do you really think that Willie just saw the bengals doctor once last year and has not been in for any follow up since? Is that what a competent doctor would do?

The ONE thing that we do know is that willie had to see another doctor before he got the proper diagnosis after being under the care of the Bengals doctors for almost a year. If the bengals didn;t do any follow up tests in all of that time when the foot was not respondong properly for treatment then thnat is their fault.[/quote]
Willie knows the second doctor is right based upon what? Willie's medical education? Because Willie said he is right?

[url="http://www.webmd.com/"]WebMD[/url] Here's a website the Bengals' players can use to pick a diagnosis they like. I'm sure Mike Brown will love the money he saves when this makes the medical staff obsolete.

If the procedure performed by the specialist fails, is he wrong also?

What Bengals' player or patient have I refused to listen to their complaints because I was too busy showing off the Big Brain on Brad?

What diagnosis have I made that is wrong?

Do you know what libel means?

No, I don't think Willie was seen just one time. If he was diagnosed with plantar fasciitis, I know it wouldn't heal if he continued to play. If he were diagnosed with Tarsal Tunnel Syndrome, it wouldn't heal if he continued to play. If he had a 'bone bruise,' stress fracture, degeneration of the plantar fascia from too many corticosteroid injections...none of them would have healed if he continued to play. The staff could give him treatments to help with the pain, but they couldn't fix the underlying problem if he continued to play. And if he stop playing...the medical staff would be at fault again. Right?

Does everytime a Bengals' player needs to see a specialist...[i]a specialist[/i]...me and Allan Iverson are talking about a [b]specialist[/b] here...it's an indictment against the Bengals' medical staff as being incompetent?

Ninja please!

[fredtoast]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='531675' date='Aug 22 2007, 12:16 PM']Willie knows the second doctor is right based upon what? Willie's medical education? Because Willie said he is right?



Do you know what libel means?[/quote]

So it is impossible for the patient to know when a doctor is right or wrong? Gee, I wonder why they even let patients testify in malpractice cases? I guess the fact that he is the one feeling the level of pain, mobility, and recovery has nothing to do with it. Or maybe they showed him proof of damage that his first doctor didn't. I don't know why he said that the second diagnosis was correct, but he knows a hell of a lot more about the condition of his foot than you do.


And yes I do know what "libel" means, but you obviously don't. A libel action requires either compensitory damages or proof of actual malice. Call your lawyer before you make yourself look even more stupid around here.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='531675' date='Aug 22 2007, 12:16 PM']Does everytime a Bengals' player needs to see a specialist...[i]a specialist[/i]...me and Allan Iverson are talking about a [b]specialist[/b] here...it's an indictment against the Bengals' medical staff as being incompetent?[/quote]

No, but why did they wait so long befor erecommending that he see a specialist? They had plenty of time to figure out that his injury was not responding to their treatment. I guess their huge doctor egos never allowed them to even consider that they may not have made the correct diagnosis. Why wait until three weeks before the seaons begins to finally suggest a second opinion? They should have at least known that it was POSSIBLE that they didn't have the correct diagnosis. Why not play it safe and let him see someone months ago?

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='fredtoast' post='531646' date='Aug 22 2007, 12:55 PM']Considering that Willie said it was then I say this is abig "YES". You have thesame problem that a lot of doctors do. You want to talk and show how smart you are more than you want to listen. The patient has said that the second opinion has resulted in a correct diagnosis. If you learn to pay more attention then maybe you won't be making as many wrong diagnosis.

Do you really think that Willie just saw the bengals doctor once last year and has not been in for any follow up since? Is that what a competent doctor would do?

The ONE thing that we do know is that willie had to see another doctor before he got the proper diagnosis after being under the care of the Bengals doctors for almost a year. If the bengals didn;t do any follow up tests in all of that time when the foot was not respondong properly for treatment then thnat is their fault.[/quote]


But did you know that toe movements take place at the joints? These joints are capable of motion in two directions: plantar flexion or dorsiflexion. In addition, the joints permit abduction and adduction of the toes.
The foot as a whole (excluding the toes) has two movements: invertion and evertion. All the joints of the hindfoot and midfoot from the subtalar contribute to these movements, which are complex and consist of several components. In addition, foot movements ordinarily are combined with ankle movements. But I'm sure everyone reading here at Go-Bengals.com already knew this basic information.

In addition, the foot has two important functions: weight bearing and propulsion. These functions require a high degree of stability. In addition, the foot must be flexible, so it can adapt to uneven surfaces. The multiple bones and joints of the foot give it flexibility, but these multiple bones must form an arch to support any weight. The foot has three arches (Big Willie's feet have ZERO arches, you know since he's flatfooted). The medial longitudinal arch is the highest and most important of the three arches. It is composed of the calcaneus, talus, navicular, cuneiforms, and the first three metatarsals. The lateral longitudinal arch is lower and flatter than the medial arch. It is composed of the calcaneus, cuboid, and the fourth and fifth metatarsals. The transverse arch is composed of the cuneiforms, the cuboid, and the five metatarsal bases. The arches of the foot are maintained not only by the shapes of the bones as well as by ligaments. In addition, muscles and tendons play an important role in supporting the arches.

Big Willie should be using all of these things to do backflips (though he is no Walter Thomas) and rejoicing that he has the Bengals' medical staff at his disposal........he should be having orgasms and masturbating like an untame monkey that he's got them at his side to provide exclusionary diagnosis to him at any given time. This is not the medical staff's fault, it is actually Big Willie's fault that he has flat feet, it is everyone's fault but the medical staff's.

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='fredtoast' post='531690' date='Aug 22 2007, 12:38 PM']So it is impossible for the patient to know when a doctor is right or wrong? Gee, I wonder why they even let patients testify in malpractice cases? I guess the fact that he is the one feeling the level of pain, mobility, and recovery has nothing to do with it. Or maybe they showed him proof of damage that his first doctor didn't. I don't know why he said that the second diagnosis was correct, but he knows a hell of a lot more about the condition of his foot than you do.
And yes I do know what "libel" means, but you obviously don't. A libel action requires either compensitory damages or proof of actual malice. Call your lawyer before you make yourself look even more stupid around here.[/quote]
No, it's not impossible for a patient to know when a doctor is right or wrong. But, if it takes a specialist to figure out what is wrong what are the chances a football player will know if the specialist is right or wrong? Unless, he has objective proof...which none of us are privy to. And Willie knows more about his foot than all of us. Without knowing the detail, who are any of us to judge? Which is my ENTIRE POINT.

If someone makes a written statement that the Bengals' medical staff "sucks monkey balls" and accuses them of repeatedly misdiagnosing injuries then provides the names those doctors (and the doctors are still alive) and continues to write "run for your lives," those statements could damage the reputation of the doctors within their profession and among the public...potentially resulting in decreased patient load and loss of revenue.

That is libel. Your lawyer will confirm this for you.

In response to why the doctors waited so long for a referral. Out of the possible etiologies I listed previously for his pain, none would heal if he continued to play. It would require a long rest period, possibly the entire off season, for those injuries to heal completely. If your getting your foot shot up with lidocaine and marcaine on game day so you can play with less pain...you're only making things worse.

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='531697' date='Aug 22 2007, 12:45 PM']But did you know that toe movements take place at the joints? These joints are capable of motion in two directions: plantar flexion or dorsiflexion. In addition, the joints permit abduction and adduction of the toes.
The foot as a whole (excluding the toes) has two movements: invertion and evertion. All the joints of the hindfoot and midfoot from the subtalar contribute to these movements, which are complex and consist of several components. In addition, foot movements ordinarily are combined with ankle movements. But I'm sure everyone reading here at Go-Bengals.com already knew this basic information.

In addition, the foot has two important functions: weight bearing and propulsion. These functions require a high degree of stability. In addition, the foot must be flexible, so it can adapt to uneven surfaces. The multiple bones and joints of the foot give it flexibility, but these multiple bones must form an arch to support any weight. The foot has three arches (Big Willie's feet have ZERO arches, you know since he's flatfooted). The medial longitudinal arch is the highest and most important of the three arches. It is composed of the calcaneus, talus, navicular, cuneiforms, and the first three metatarsals. The lateral longitudinal arch is lower and flatter than the medial arch. It is composed of the calcaneus, cuboid, and the fourth and fifth metatarsals. The transverse arch is composed of the cuneiforms, the cuboid, and the five metatarsal bases. The arches of the foot are maintained not only by the shapes of the bones as well as by ligaments. In addition, muscles and tendons play an important role in supporting the arches.

Big Willie should be using all of these things to do backflips (though he is no Walter Thomas) and rejoicing that he has the Bengals' medical staff at his disposal........he should be having orgasms and masturbating like an untame monkey that he's got them at his side to provide exclusionary diagnosis to him at any given time. This is not the medical staff's fault, it is actually Big Willie's fault that he has flat feet, it is everyone's fault but the medical staff's.[/quote]
Where did you get this info? Wikipedia? You need to fire whomever gave it to you, because they are wrong.

Yeah, I know toe movements occur at the joints. Where else would it occur? In the shaft of the phalanx? Those joints are called the metatarsalphalangeal joint, the proximal interphalangeal joint, and the distal interphalangeal joint...in case you're wondering. All of those joints are capable of dorsiflexion and plantar flexion. Only the MTP joints are capable of abduction and adduction of the toes.

The foot AS A WHOLE has 4 movement (not 2); dorsiflexion, plantarflexion, inversion, and eversion. These movement occur at the ankle. The forefoot is capable of these same 4 motions but to a lesser degree.

Your inaccurate anatomy lesson doesn't provide any "evidence" to my earlier questions.

None of us know what the injury is, what was done to treat it, why it failed, and why it took a specialist to figure it out.

Without those answers, or friends at the Psychic Network, you're capable of divining who misdiagnosed an injury and why?

[|Bunghole|]

I pick option C) Both scenarios are possible or a combination are. I agree that it "seems" like there have been too many supposed misdiagnoses. With that said, players bitching to the media (even if it's written as "he expressed disappointment that he had to visit a second doctor") about shit sure isn't new.
It is also entirely possible that a doctor familiar with sports injuries may need the help of a specialist if a diagnosis cannot be made, due to a variety of factors.
I can't sit here and pretend to know what all the Latin terms for body parts are, but doctoring is a difficult profession, and yet, some doctors are certainly better than others too.
LoyalFan has provided some evidence here that some of these types of injuries (like Perry's sports hernia) can be VERY difficult to diagnose, even with modern technological advances in equipment.
I think there is cause for some concern, but I am not so sure that the Bengals have what some here perceive to be "BAD" doctors.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='531749' date='Aug 22 2007, 03:57 PM']Where did you get this info? Wikipedia? You need to fire whomever gave it to you, because they are wrong.

Yeah, I know toe movements occur at the joints. Where else would it occur? In the shaft of the phalanx? Those joints are called the metatarsalphalangeal joint, the proximal interphalangeal joint, and the distal interphalangeal joint...in case you're wondering. All of those joints are capable of dorsiflexion and plantar flexion. Only the MTP joints are capable of abduction and adduction of the toes.

The foot AS A WHOLE has 4 movement (not 2); dorsiflexion, plantarflexion, inversion, and eversion. These movement occur at the ankle. The forefoot is capable of these same 4 motions but to a lesser degree.

Your inaccurate anatomy lesson doesn't provide any "evidence" to my earlier questions.

None of us know what the injury is, what was done to treat it, why it failed, and why it took a specialist to figure it out.

Without those answers, or friends at the Psychic Network, you're capable of divining who misdiagnosed an injury and why?[/quote]


I can't believe you took the post so seriously......

........and the evidence that the Bengals' staff blows lies in the players' feelings towards them. Isn't that a method to determine how "good" a doctor is.....the patient's (dis)satisfaction with him/her/them?

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='531757' date='Aug 22 2007, 02:53 PM']
I can't believe you took the post so seriously......

........and the evidence that the Bengals' staff blows lies in the players' feelings towards them. Isn't that a method to determine how "good" a doctor is.....the patient's (dis)satisfaction with him/her/them?[/quote]
Patient satisfaction is certainly important. However, it isn't a measure of how good (i.e. competent) a doctor is.

It determines how well liked a doctor is by his patient and is a reflection of his bedside manner.

I've sutured I-don't-know-how-many lacerations on kids. Not one of them liked me when I was sticking that 27 gauge needle into their wound to inject it with lidocaine.

How "good" would I be if I hadn't numbed them first just so they would like me better.

I need more information before I join the Throw 'em under the Bus Bandwagon.

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

Bung, I need to ask a favor.

Can you get your son to delete my account, again?

This is difficult for me to talk about, but last night I made the decision to check myself into rehab.

I'm ashamed to admit that I'm prejudiced...against stupid people. I can't stop myself from correcting them. It's a disease. I need the help of trained professionals...and your 2 year old.

The doctors believe there is a 60% chance they can remove the stick from my ass while I receive inpatient treatments at their facility which is located at some place called, "Undisclosed." Sounds tropical, yes? They have warned me it is a dangerous and potentially life threatening surgery. On the bright side, they said the recovery is long, difficult, and I will feel like they just ripped the ass out of me. So, I got that going for me; plus the Dalai Lama promised me total consciousness on my deathbed after I caddied for him once in Tibet. Big hitter, the Dalai. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxIfMHhWXoY"]Click here to view the Dalai's tip[/url]

My family and I ask that you respect our privacy during this most trying and difficult of times. I thank you all for your well wishes and prayers. With the help of a good lobotomy to seperate my frontal lobes, I hope to one day return while functioning at a lower mental capacity.

Fred, I can't recall insulting you or insinuating that you are incompetent at what you do, so I can only assume your thong was riding a bit high yesterday causing some irritation.

[center][img]http://www.periodistadigital.com/imgs/20061117/borattanga250.jpg[/img][/center]

In the future, maybe you should check a reference or two before dishing out the insults.

[center][img]http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a812/a812_bm.gif[/img][/center]

1 They're known as [i]compensatory damages[/i], not "[i]compensitory[/i]" damages. You don't get French benefits at your work, either.
2 Compensatory damages aren't a [i]requirement[/i] of libel. Rather, they can be awarded to the plantiff as the [i]result[/i] of a guilty verdict against the defendant for libel.
3 Malice is a requirement only in the case of public figures; celebrities, politicians, etc.
4 You were a big goose egg on all the basic requirements.

[center][url="http://www.medialaw.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Public_Resources/Libel_FAQs/Libel_FAQs.htm#What%20is%20Libel"]The Official Fred "My shoe leather tastes like burnt" toast Website[/url][/center]

What did you say about making one's self look stupid, Fred?

Ikota, I can[b][s]'t[/s][/b] believe you plagiarized, including the misspellings (which should never happen in a peer reviewed article...even if it is the internet.)

[center][url="http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/foot_facts/a/foot1.htm"]Foot Anatomy and Physiology by Elizabeth Quinn[/url][/center]

I hope you realize that this isn't me talking, it's the disease.

[img]http://users.adelphia.net/~aattoun/Horse_Ass.jpg[/img]

[fredtoast]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='532457' date='Aug 23 2007, 03:51 PM']1 They're known as [i]compensatory damages[/i], not "[i]compensitory[/i]" damages. You don't get French benefits at your work, either.
2 Compensatory damages aren't a [i]requirement[/i] of libel. Rather, they can be awarded to the plantiff as the [i]result[/i] of a guilty verdict against the defendant for libel.
3 Malice is a requirement only in the case of public figures; celebrities, politicians, etc.
4 You were a big goose egg on all the basic requirements.

[center][url="http://www.medialaw.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Public_Resources/Libel_FAQs/Libel_FAQs.htm#What%20is%20Libel"]The Official Fred "My shoe leather tastes like burnt" toast Website[/url][/center]

What did you say about making one's self look stupid, Fred?[/quote]

Nice try at legal research, but you still don't have it right. The comment I made was that the victim of libel needed to prove either compensatory damages or actual malice. This has nothing to do with the special treatment of a public figure. It has to do with collecting a judgement for damages. If there are no compensatory damages a plaintiff can still collect punitive damages if actual malice is proven. This means that a non-public figure can only collect a judgement if he proves compensatory damages or actual malice. A non-public figure can not collect anything for reckless or negligent libelous statements if there are no compensatory damages. So your statement that malice is only required in the case of public figures is completely false.

Hope the rehab works out for you.

BTW I love the extreme lengths you went to in your failed attempt to prove me wrong. It makes me feel special.

[|Bunghole|]

This thread has indeed taken on a wonderful, dysfunctional, hilarious life of it's own. Well done by all.

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='fredtoast' post='532468' date='Aug 23 2007, 04:25 PM']Nice try at legal research, but you still don't have it right. The comment I made was that the victim of libel needed to prove either compensatory damages or actual malice. This has nothing to do with the special treatment of a public figure. It has to do with collecting a judgement for damages. If there are no compensatory damages a plaintiff can still collect punitive damages if actual malice is proven. This means that a non-public figure can only collect a judgement if he proves compensatory damages or actual malice. A non-public figure can not collect anything for reckless or negligent libelous statements if there are no compensatory damages. So your statement that malice is only required in the case of public figures is completely false.

Hope the rehab works out for you.

BTW I love the extreme lengths you went to in your failed attempt to prove me wrong. It makes me feel special.[/quote]
It took about 30 seconds to look up what I already knew. A non-public figure has to prove the statements were damaging to his reputation (among other things), but not compensatory damages or actual malice was involved. Tort Law was part of the medical curriculum due to medical malpractice, ambulance chasers, and insurance fraud, etc. Are you an ambulance chaser, Fred? Are you one of those lawyers getting hammered for fraud regarding manufacturing evidence in the asbestosis/silicosis malpractices cases?

I guess we both got our degress from UCLA...University of Columbus 'Longside the Airport.

Since I seem to be the law expert and you're the medical expert, let's examine medical malpractice.

You're sitting on a jury of a doctor's peers who stands accused of misdiagnosing multiple injuries involving several Bengals' players. Your job as a juror is to examine the evidence looking for negligence resulting in damage to the patient. If you, as a doctor and juror, had the same patient with the same complaint under the same circumstances would you have done the same things the treating physician did? Would you order the same tests? Would you interpret the results the same or differently? Did the doctor omit any tests or procedures? Would you have ordered any further testing? Would you arrive at the same diagnosis based upon the information at hand in the same time frame? If not, why? Did the doctor prescribe treatment in accordance with standard medical care? Would you have done anything differently or not done something...which could have resulted in a correct diagnosis in a timely manner and avoid damage to the patient?

I've asked myself these same questions and the evidence simply isn't available to answer the questions. Did they miss Chris Perry's sports hernia...yeah, I think they did. I also understand why and I don't think the average NFL team doctor would have acted any differently under the same set of circumstances with the same patient. Are they bad doctors? No! Were they negligent? We don't have the information to answer that question. My personal feeling is if the sterile, latex glove don't fit...you must acquit!

Now you can wow me with your hearsay.

I don't think I've ever directed a comment towards you until you wrote, "If you learn to pay more attention then maybe you won't be making as many wrong diagnosis." What the fuck, Fred? Really, what prompted that comment? I see over 5000 patients every year and I'm certain you haven't interviewed one as to the level of my attentiveness. I am certain you haven't reviewed a single chart of mine regarding whether my objective findings support my diagnosis or if my treatment is in accordance with standard medical care. Your comment was meant to be offensive and I took it as such. I don't know why you wrote it, unless you were just trying to be a prick. I'll be happy to reciprocate, asshole.

If I could make three more correction before bedtime, "If you learn to pay attention then you won't make as many wrong diagnoses."

1 "Pay more attention" is superfluous. Leave out "more." You don't need it.
2 "Maybe you won't be making..." Again, it's superfluous and the wrong tense. You're too smart for such bad grammer.
3 Diagnosis is singular, diagnoses is plural. In your orgininal statement your meaning is that I've only fucked up once, when I think you actually mean I've fucked up repeatedly. If my assumption is correct then 'diagnoses' is the correct word you should use.

Contact me if you need more of your bullshit proofread. (Yeah, proofread is one word, not two.)

Edit: Actually, they're asbestosis/silicosis [i]worker's compensation[/i] cases.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='531137' date='Aug 21 2007, 10:36 AM']Watching Willie's video from 8/20, he seems just as frustrated with the reporter's portrayal of his (alleged?) frustration, "You guys are powerful."

Many times arriving at a correct diagnosis is a [i]process,[/i] not a one time snap shot of time. Some diagnoses are termed a "diagnosis of exclusion," meaning you eliminate all other possibilities before arriving at the final, correct diagnosis.

Let's take the case of a sports hernia which is a tear in musculature of the abdominal wall creating a small hole. A sports hernia and an abdominal strain are caused by the same mechanisms of injury. They both have the same symptoms. The physical exam is usually the same. Most sports hernias can't be seen or felt. Usually, an ultrasound is used to detect a sports hernia; but even ultrasounds aren't 100% accurate/sensitive in detecting sports hernias.

So if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck...it's a duck. If your duck is still painful in 2-4 weeks, we'll re-evaluate.

When money and medical assests are practically unlimited, where do you draw the line when ordering tests and procedures?

Does every player with a headache get a CT, MRI, and MRA of his head and brain?

Does every player with neck stiffness get a lumbar puncture?

If a player gets diarrhea, his ass gets irritated from wiping it all day, and he notices a small amount of blood on the toilet tissue...is it realistic to expect the Bengal's medical staff to pack his ass full of barium, shoot xrays, and then weave a 6' fiber optic scope through his anus, rectum, sigmoid colon, ascending colon, transverse colon, descending colon, and ending at the cecum looking for colon cancer? Because as we all know, rectal bleeding is cancer until proven otherwise.[/quote]


[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='531625' date='Aug 22 2007, 10:35 AM']Evidence?

Do we know when Willie's injury occurred? Did it happen in August during training camp or December? We don't know.

Do we know how the injury occurred? No

Can we believe "heel pain" is the true nature of the injury? No

Do we know how Willie described the injury and his symptoms? No

Do we know what the doctor found during the physical exam? No

Do we know what tests or procedures were ordered? No

Do we know the results of any tests or procedures? No

Do we know the doctor's diagnosis? No

Do we know the differential diagnosis? No

Do we know the treatment plan? No

Do we know if Willie was compliant with the treatment plan? No

Do we know what type of specialist Willie saw for his second opinion? No

Do we know what tests or procedures the specialist ordered/preformed? No

Do we know these results? No

Do we know the specialist's diagnosis? No

Do we know if the specialist's diagnosis is any more accurate the the intitial diagnosis? No

I'm overwhelmed by the evidence.

No, this isn't a diagnosis of exclusion. I didn't say it was. I said "some diagnoses are termed a 'diagnosis of exclusion.'" But, this is a perfect example of how you arrive at a diagnosis through a [i]process[/i].

I'll explain:

Willie has heel pain and I bet his 15EEE feet are flat as boards, maybe some valgus deformity of his ankles. He probably had diffuse tenderness around the medial tubercle of the calcaneus. An xray probably showed a calcaneal osteophyte at the insertion of the plantar fascia. So that means Plantar Fasciitis is staring you in the face saying, "Pick me! Pick me! Oooooooooh, pick me! I want to be the diagnosis! Pleeeeeeaaaaaasssssseeeeee?" Like I said, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck...it's a duck, not a zebra. So plantar fasciitis it is.

The #1 treatment for plantar fasciitis is avoid the activity causing the pain. The #2 treatment is called Tincture of Time, you have to give your body time to heal. Option 1 and 2 aren't realistic if you are a professional football player unless...it's the offseason. There is also ice, NSAIDs, stretching, custom orthotics, night time strapping, maybe even a corticosteroid injection once every 3-4 months. Plantar fasciitis is a notoriously chronic and frustrating condition to have and to treat because none of the options work very effectively or quickly. Willie was probably told the pain would resolve if he rested it during the offseason. He came back to camp, still in pain. Hmmm, something isn't right. Did he go back to the training staff to continue the medical evaluation process? Or did he automatically seek a second opinion? Once again, we don't know.

Tarsal Tunnel Syndrome can cause heel pain in the same distribution as plantar fasciitis. Unlike plantar fasciitis, it isn't very common. It's a zebra, not a duck. How do you diagnosis TTS? With an EMG. An EMG involves inserting needles into specific muscles (depending upon which nerve you want to test) and having the patient alternately contract and relax those muscles while passing an electrical current through the needles in order to assess the functioning of the nerve being tested. The patient's I've seen have an EMG seemed to be having an orgasm because they kept saying, "Oh, god. Oh, God. Oh, GAAAWD," during the testing.

TTS can be treated with a surgical procedure to release pressure upon the affected nerve. It's very similar to Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and surgical release of the median nerve.

I'm sure you already know all of this and I'm just wasting your time and mine. This is in no way evidence of any kind and just wild speculation.

It's a damn shame the Bengal's staff isn't perfect like you and me. Or is that 'you and I.' Shit! Now, I'm not perfect![/quote]


[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='532753' date='Aug 24 2007, 12:58 AM']It took about 30 seconds to look up what I already knew. A non-public figure has to prove the statements were damaging to his reputation (among other things), but not compensatory damages or actual malice was involved. Tort Law was part of the medical curriculum due to medical malpractice, ambulance chasers, and insurance fraud, etc. Are you an ambulance chaser, Fred? Are you one of those lawyers getting hammered for fraud regarding manufacturing evidence in the asbestosis/silicosis malpractices cases?

I guess we both got our degress from UCLA...University of Columbus 'Longside the Airport.

Since I seem to be the law expert and you're the medical expert, let's examine medical malpractice.

You're sitting on a jury of a doctor's peers who stands accused of misdiagnosing multiple injuries involving several Bengals' players. Your job as a juror is to examine the evidence looking for negligence resulting in damage to the patient. If you, as a doctor and juror, had the same patient with the same complaint under the same circumstances would you have done the same things the treating physician did? Would you order the same tests? Would you interpret the results the same or differently? Did the doctor omit any tests or procedures? Would you have ordered any further testing? Would you arrive at the same diagnosis based upon the information at hand in the same time frame? If not, why? Did the doctor prescribe treatment in accordance with standard medical care? Would you have done anything differently or not done something...which could have resulted in a correct diagnosis in a timely manner and avoid damage to the patient?

I've asked myself these same questions and the evidence simply isn't available to answer the questions. Did they miss Chris Perry's sports hernia...yeah, I think they did. I also understand why and I don't think the average NFL team doctor would have acted any differently under the same set of circumstances with the same patient. Are they bad doctors? No! Were they negligent? We don't have the information to answer that question. My personal feeling is if the sterile, latex glove don't fit...you must acquit!

Now you can wow me with your hearsay.

I don't think I've ever directed a comment towards you until you wrote, "If you learn to pay more attention then maybe you won't be making as many wrong diagnosis." What the fuck, Fred? Really, what prompted that comment? I see over 5000 patients every year and I'm certain you haven't interviewed one as to the level of my attentiveness. I am certain you haven't reviewed a single chart of mine regarding whether my objective findings support my diagnosis or if my treatment is in accordance with standard medical care. Your comment was meant to be offensive and I took it as such. I don't know why you wrote it, unless you were just trying to be a prick. I'll be happy to reciprocate, asshole.

If I could make three more correction before bedtime, "If you learn to pay attention then you won't make as many wrong diagnoses."

1 "Pay more attention" is superfluous. Leave out "more." You don't need it.
2 "Maybe you won't be making..." Again, it's superfluous and the wrong tense. You're too smart for such bad grammer.
3 Diagnosis is singular, diagnoses is plural. In your orgininal statement your meaning is that I've only fucked up once, when I think you actually mean I've fucked up repeatedly. If my assumption is correct then 'diagnoses' is the correct word you should use.

Contact me if you need more of your bullshit proofread. (Yeah, proofread is one word, not two.)[/quote]



GA passin out Pwnedsickles.

[Actium]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='532753' date='Aug 23 2007, 11:58 PM']It took about 30 seconds to look up what I already knew. A non-public figure has to prove the statements were damaging to his reputation (among other things), but not compensatory damages or actual malice was involved. Tort Law was part of the medical curriculum due to medical malpractice, ambulance chasers, and insurance fraud, etc. Are you an ambulance chaser, Fred? Are you one of those lawyers getting hammered for fraud regarding manufacturing evidence in the asbestosis/silicosis malpractices cases?

I guess we both got our degress from UCLA...University of Columbus 'Longside the Airport.

Since I seem to be the law expert and you're the medical expert, let's examine medical malpractice.

You're sitting on a jury of a doctor's peers who stands accused of misdiagnosing multiple injuries involving several Bengals' players. Your job as a juror is to examine the evidence looking for negligence resulting in damage to the patient. If you, as a doctor and juror, had the same patient with the same complaint under the same circumstances would you have done the same things the treating physician did? Would you order the same tests? Would you interpret the results the same or differently? Did the doctor omit any tests or procedures? Would you have ordered any further testing? Would you arrive at the same diagnosis based upon the information at hand in the same time frame? If not, why? Did the doctor prescribe treatment in accordance with standard medical care? Would you have done anything differently or not done something...which could have resulted in a correct diagnosis in a timely manner and avoid damage to the patient?

I've asked myself these same questions and the evidence simply isn't available to answer the questions. Did they miss Chris Perry's sports hernia...yeah, I think they did. I also understand why and I don't think the average NFL team doctor would have acted any differently under the same set of circumstances with the same patient. Are they bad doctors? No! Were they negligent? We don't have the information to answer that question. My personal feeling is if the sterile, latex glove don't fit...you must acquit!

Now you can wow me with your hearsay.

I don't think I've ever directed a comment towards you until you wrote, "If you learn to pay more attention then maybe you won't be making as many wrong diagnosis." What the fuck, Fred? Really, what prompted that comment? I see over 5000 patients every year and I'm certain you haven't interviewed one as to the level of my attentiveness. I am certain you haven't reviewed a single chart of mine regarding whether my objective findings support my diagnosis or if my treatment is in accordance with standard medical care. Your comment was meant to be offensive and I took it as such. I don't know why you wrote it, unless you were just trying to be a prick. I'll be happy to reciprocate, asshole.

If I could make three more correction before bedtime, "If you learn to pay attention then you won't make as many wrong diagnoses."

1 "Pay more attention" is superfluous. Leave out "more." You don't need it.
2 "Maybe you won't be making..." Again, it's superfluous and the wrong tense. You're too smart for such bad grammer.
3 Diagnosis is singular, diagnoses is plural. In your orgininal statement your meaning is that I've only fucked up once, when I think you actually mean I've fucked up repeatedly. If my assumption is correct then 'diagnoses' is the correct word you should use.

Contact me if you need more of your bullshit proofread. (Yeah, proofread is one word, not two.)[/quote]

Don't go and lampoon ambulance chasers now. We are a dying breed thanks to insurance companies, their lobbyists, and the public which has wool pulled over their eyes with tort reform, aka insurance profit-booster.

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='531743' date='Aug 22 2007, 01:58 PM']If someone makes a written statement that the Bengals' medical staff "sucks monkey balls" and accuses them of repeatedly misdiagnosing injuries then provides the names those doctors (and the doctors are still alive) and continues to write "run for your lives," those statements could damage the reputation of the doctors within their profession and among the public...potentially resulting in decreased patient load and loss of revenue.[/quote]
Also, a list was provided with the players' names and the alleged initial diagonsis and their alleged correct diagnosis. A quick peek inside the player's medical records can indicate if that list is true or false.

If the medical records indicate the statements made about the doctors diagnoses was false, explain to me how libel doesn't exsist.

"Sucks monkey balls" is just insulting, not defamatory, so just ignore that part.

[|Lucid|]

Gotta love it when an educated professional in a field under discussion comes in trying to set the record straight and gets met with cavemen saying things like:

"But i says you is wrong cuz whut i dun red in the internets.... And also that guy on teh radio shur seems smart, and he seys so too!"


Really, that is exactly what some of you sound like.... What's funny is how many times the trogs have tried calling this guy stupid.

Here's a hint... When you run into someone who obviously knows more than you do.... Just shut the fuck up, unless you are asking for clarity. Youll look like less of a jack-ass, and you might actually learn something...

Assuming that's possible anyway.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='532754' date='Aug 24 2007, 01:11 AM']GA passin out Pwnedsickles.[/quote]


[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img]

Pwnedsickles.



seriously....[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img]

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='fredtoast' post='532468' date='Aug 23 2007, 04:25 PM']Nice try at legal research, but you still don't have it right. The comment I made was that the victim of libel needed to prove either compensatory damages or actual malice.[/quote]
[center][img]http://www.mtv.com/news/photos/f/fat_joe_make_rain_060912/a.jpg[/img][/center]

Better grab an umbrella. Fat Joe and I are 'bout to make it rain.

[url="http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Compensatory_damages"]law.cornell.edu[/url]
[quote]Compensatory damages Damages awarded according to the amount of actual harm suffered by the plaintiff.[/quote]

[url="http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Damages"]law.cornell.edu[/url]
[quote]Damages, in a legal sense, is the sum of money the law imposes for a breach of some duty or violation of some right. Generally, there are two types of damages : compensatory and punitive. Compensatory damages, like the name suggests, are intended to compensate the injured party for his loss or injury.[/quote]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damages"]Wikipedia[/url]
[quote]Compensatory damages are paid to compensate the claimant for loss, injury, or harm[/quote]

[url="http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d004.htm"]lectlaw.com[/url]
[quote]DAMAGES, COMPENSATORY - Amount of money adequate to compensate for any actual damages[/quote]

[url="http://insurance.cch.com/rupps/compensatory-damages.htm"]insurance.cch.com[/url]
[quote]compensatory damages Money awarded in a civil lawsuit to make an injured person whole[/quote]

[url="http://www.injuryboard.com/view.cfm/Topic=16"]injuryboard.com[/url]
[quote]Compensatory damages can include payment from the Defendant to compensate you for, among other things, lost wages, lost profits, hospital bills (current & future), cost of home medical care (including medical equipment such as beds, wheelchairs, etc.) property damage, mental anguish, loss of friends, loss of respect in the community, loss of reputation[/quote]

[url="http://www.enotes.com/wests-law-encyclopedia/compensatory-damages"]enotes.com[/url]
[quote]A sum of money awarded in a civil action by a court to indemnify a person for the particular loss, detriment, or injury suffered as a result of the unlawful conduct of another.[/quote]

[url="http://www.personal-injury-info.net/compensatory-damages.htm"]personal-injury-info.net[/url]
[quote]Compensatory damages are paid to the plaintiff[/quote]

[url="http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/A50A9EFC-8E6F-4B16-ABCAD9C0DD51CDEF"]nolo.com[/url]
[quote]money awarded to one party based on injury or loss caused by the other[/quote]

[center][img]http://www.megaprint.com/assets/images/photos/lady-with-big-check-1.jpg[/img][/center]
[center]"My lawyer got me this big, fat check!"[/center]
[center]"It's proof of compensatory damages I received after the defendant was found guilty of libel."[/center]
[center]"Proof of compensatory damages is different than proving my reputation was damaged."[/center]

[center][img]http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/regret.jpg[/img][/center]

[center][img]http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/persistence.jpg[/img][/center]
[center]It should read, "It's over, [s]Man[/s] Loyal. Let [s]her[/s] it go."[/center]

[|Bengal Migration|]

fwiw, i think Willie just has an ingrown toenail