John McCain: "Fine with Occupying Iraq for 100 years"

[|BlackJesus|]

[center][color="#FF0000"][b]Is there a way we can check his old senile ass back into the Hanoi Hilton ?[/color]


[img]http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j318/Tredcrow/Guerrilla/mccain_shining.jpg[/img]





[i](Notice how his fellow war monger Joe LIEberman is standing behind him.)[/b][/i][/center]

[|BlackJesus|]

[color="#800080"][b]Another century of the "Freedom" to have to sell your children ! [/b][/color]





[quote][img]http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j318/Tredcrow/Guerrilla/iraq2.jpg[/img]
[size=4][u][b]Iraqis resort to selling children [/b]
By Afif Sarhan in Baghdad [/u][/size]


Abu Muhammad, a Baghdad resident, found it difficult to let go of his daughter's hand but he had already convinced himself that selling her to a family outside Iraq would provide her with a better future.

"The war disgraced my family. I lost relatives including my wife among thousands of victims of sectarian violence and was [b]forced to sell my daughter to give my other children something to eat,"[/b] he told Al Jazeera.

In 2006, Abu Muhammad and his family were forced to leave their home in Adhamiya, a district of Baghdad, after militia fighting claimed the streets in his once tranquil neighbourhood.

They began living in a makeshift refugee camp on the outskirts of Baghdad, but he soon lost his job and the children, unable to make the daily trek, quit school.

"There wasn't enough money to spend on books, clothes and transport," he said. His daughter, Fatima, the youngest of four children, began to show signs of malnourishment and a local medic said she had become anaemic.


[size=3][u]Desperation[/u][/size]

By mid-2007, conditions for his family had become desperate and his children, once healthy and bubbling with life, had become gaunt and lethargic.

It was then that a translator and a Swedish couple claiming to be part of an international NGO arrived in the makeshift refugee camp.

[b]"They heard about my situation and the woman, who said she could not have babies, offered some money to give her my youngest daughter of two years old,"[/b] he said.

"I refused in the beginning but the Iraqi translator was constantly coming at the camp and insisting with the same question. One day I found that my children would die without food and a clean environment and the next time he came to my tent, I told him that I agreed."

He gave the translator all personal documents and after a week the couple came with new documents for Abu Muhammad to sign, authorising the adoption and to pick up his daughter.

[b]Abu Muhammad, who received $10,000, believes he is now damned by God,[/b] but he says his inner turmoil is allayed somewhat by his belief that Fatima will have a better life than many in Iraq.

"I could see her love in the first time she looked at her," he said of the adoptive mother.


[size=3][u]Alarming disappearances[/u][/size]

Local officials and aid workers have expressed [b]concern over the alarming rate at which children are disappearing countrywide[/b] in Iraq's current unstable environment.

Omar Khalif, vice-president of the Iraqi Families Association (IFA), an NGO established in 2004 to register cases of those missing and trafficked, said that at least two children are sold by their parents every week.

[b]Another four are reported missing every week. [/b]

He said: [b]"[The] numbers are alarming. There is an increase of 20 percent in the reported cases of missing children compared to last year."[/b]

"In previous years, children were reported missing on their way home from schools or after playing with friends outside their homes. However, police investigations have revealed that many have been sold by their parents to foreign couples or specialised gangs."

According to police investigations and an independent IFA study, [b]Iraqi children are being sold to families in many European countries - particularly the Netherlands and Sweden - Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.[/b]

"Taking advantage of the desperate situation of many families living under poverty conditions in Iraq, foreigners offer a good amount of money in exchange of children as young as one-month old and up to five years of age," Khalif said.

[size=3][b]He said there are fears children are being trafficked for the sex trade and the organ transplant black market.[/b][/size]


[size=3][u]Children drugged [/u][/size]

Hassan Alaa, a senior interior ministry official, said that while it has been difficult to precisely trace where the missing children are taken, government forces have captured [b]15 human trafficking gangs operating in Iraq [/b] in the past nine months.

"Many were carrying false documents prepared to take some children out from the country."

"During their confessions, they said many children are sold for as little as $3,000 and for very young babies, the price could reach $30,000," Alaa said.

The interior ministry has stepped up its security at checkpoints and border posts throughout Iraq.

He says that the child traffickers resort to drugging children with powerful sedatives during the trip out of Iraq. When they drive up to a checkpoint, the police are told the children are merely sleeping.

[b]"All children leaving Iraq now have to be woken up and interviewed by the police[/b] and border patrols, except those who are infants and unable to speak," Alaa said.


[size=3][u]Extreme poverty[/u][/size]

Mahmoud Saeed, a senior official at the ministry of labour and social affairs, says extreme poverty and nationwide unemployment have pushed parents to the edge, forcing them to make decisions once believed unthinkable.

Roger Wright, Unicef's special representative for Iraq, recently told the media that "Iraqi children are paying far too high a price."

"While we have been providing as much assistance as possible, a new window of opportunity is opening, which should enable us to reach the most vulnerable with expanded, consistent support. We must act now."

[b]"Desperate seeing their families without food and hygiene, parents prefer to give their children for adoption, to save their lives," he said.[/b]

Saeed said the ministry was making employment a national crisis issue in 2008, hoping to find immediate work for the poor.

He is hoping international aid agencies and NGOs will increase their participation and investments in projects geared towards helping children.

But for many parents, help will inevitably come too late.


[size=3][u]Anguish[/u][/size]

Khalid Jabboury, 38, a father of seven and displaced on the outskirts of Baghdad, says giving his daughter up for adoption to a Jordanian family has given him nothing but torment.

He said: "After one year I heard from some relatives that they had seen my seven-year-old daughter working as a servant for the supposed new family and she was being beaten as well."

He says he was paid $20,000 but wants to give the money back if a local NGO can assist in her repatriation.

The IFA's Khalif says there is nothing the NGOs can do once children have been taken out of Iraq.

Ruwaida Saleh, 31, a mother of three, is also praying for her eight-year-old daughter Hala's safety.

Saleh says [b]her daughter disappeared in July 2007 [/b] and has not been heard from since.

[b]"The police told us to give up, but I cannot. I have nightmares she is being raped,"[/b] she said.

"I will hold God's hands and beg Him to have Hala in my arms again one day. It is a pain without explanation that I will carry to my coffin if I never find her."


[size=3][u]Unicef says:[/u][/size]

- An estimated [b]two million children in Iraq [/b] continue to face threats including poor nutrition, disease and interrupted education.

- Many of the 220,000 displaced children of primary school age had their education interrupted.

- An estimated 760,000 children (17 per cent) did not go to primary schools in 2006.

- An average 25,000 children per month were displaced by violence or intimidation, with their families seeking shelter in other parts of Iraq.

- In 2007, approximately 75,000 children had resorted to living in camps or temporary shelters.

- Hundreds of children lost their lives or were injured by violence and many more had their main family wage-earner kidnapped or killed.[/quote]



[url="http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/F22B4D85-59F6-4778-8E9F-C15E7F1CDB40.htm"]http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/F22...15E7F1CDB40.htm[/url]

[CincyInDC]

I thought he was going back...


[url="http://www.theonion.com/content/news/mccain_to_send_self_back_to"]http://www.theonion.com/content/news/mccai...nd_self_back_to[/url]


[quote][size=5]McCain To Send Self Back To Vietnamese POW Camp To Revitalize Campaign[/size]

April 16, 2007 | Issue 43•16

PHOENIX, AZ—In what insiders say is an attempt to revitalize his flagging campaign and convince voters that he is still a straight-talking maverick, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) announced Sunday that he will subject himself to the same mental torment and physical abuse he endured nearly 40 years ago at the same Vietnamese camp where he was once held as a prisoner of war.
Enlarge Image McCain To

"On Saturday at approximately 2:40 a.m. I will fly over the capital city of Hanoi and have my plane's right wing blown off by a Russian missile," said McCain, adding that the force of the ejection from an aging A-4 Skyhawk should render him unconscious and break both of his arms and "preferably [his] right leg." "I will then be taken to a bug- and rat-infested cell where, with both nobility and grace, I will suffer the worst forms of human indignities."

McCain, once considered a shoo-in for the Republican presidential nomination, insisted that his upcoming stay at the Hanoi torture facility was simply a late addition to a previously planned trip to Southeast Asia, and has nothing to do with his faltering campaign.

But a source close to the campaign said the senator's decision to revisit his indescribable degradation at the hands of the Viet Cong was prompted by a desire to "get back to his roots," and "reconnect with the struggles that defined him as a leader."

"The fact is, Sen. McCain feels that he's changed somehow from the independent, eternally haunted outsider that he once was," the source said. "He hopes that revisiting the extraordinary horrors he endured so many years ago will reinstill in him the sense of purpose and commitment he is so respected for. And what better way to reignite the political fire within than by having sharpened rods of bamboo jammed under his fingernails?"
McCain

"With both nobility and grace, I will suffer the worst forms of human indignities."

According to campaign documents released to the media, the visit will cost more than $10 million, most of which will go toward acquiring a Grushin S-75 surface-to-air missile, renovating McCain's cell to its exact 1970s-era condition, paying medical personnel to provide inefficient and cruel treatment, and hiring Vietnamese citizens to act as the Viet Cong.

"Just when you think McCain is down and out, he announces the most brilliant move we've seen in American politics in a generation," ABC political correspondent George Stephanopoulos said. "With [Rudolph] Giuliani beating him in the polls and [Mitt] Romney outpacing him in fundraising, McCain's only remaining advantage is that he successfully withstood atrocities beyond our comprehension. And to subject himself to those same unspeakable acts of physical violence at the age of 68 should dispel any doubt among voters that he's too old to be in the White House."

Stephanopoulos added that McCain must be careful not to return from Southeast Asia too soon before the primaries, or his act of courage, integrity, and determination may fade from the memory of American voters.

"This trip is a huge political gamble," Washington Post columnist E.J. Dionne, Jr. wrote Tuesday. "Still, being forced to stay awake for six days as your captors douse you with water and feed you rotting food sounds a lot more convincing than John Kerry's campaign strategy of simply talking about his military experience."

According to recent polls, a majority of Americans say McCain's announcement has made them reconsider his candidacy.

"I've always admired McCain, but he's disappointed me in recent months," Cincinnati resident Ben Krepps, 33, said. "After so many years in the political mainstream, he's gone soft. Maybe some long, cruel nights are exactly what he needs to get his head back into this race."

Others, however, including unaffiliated Republican consultant David Winston, argue that McCain's trip will only hurt his presidential chances.

"In John McCain's attempt to find the old John McCain, he is actually just solidifying his position as the new, more pandering John McCain," Winston said. "Yes, the old John McCain withstood seemingly endless torture, and people respected that. But a second time around? It just looks desperate."

With McCain's drastic move sending shock waves through the political world, Sens. Hillary Clinton (D-NY) and Barack Obama (D-IL) both announced plans to send themselves back to their respective Ivy League law schools to reenroll in their most challenging courses.[/quote]

[Scoutforlife591]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='619113' date='Jan 5 2008, 04:47 AM'][center][color="#ff0000"][b]Is there a way we can check his old senile ass back into the Hanoi Hilton ?[/color]


[img]http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j318/Tredcrow/Guerrilla/mccain_shining.jpg[/img]





[i](Notice how his fellow war monger Joe LIEberman is standing behind him.)[/b][/i][/center][/quote]

The thread should read, "Fine with Occupying Iraq for 100 years if our people aren't being hurt or killed."

Many may still disagree. But you removed the context.

[bengalrick]

mccain says something that is probably true and going to happen (see korea, germany, japan, etc...) , and bj makes a joke about sending him back to being a pow... how classy...

[CincyInDC]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='619242' date='Jan 5 2008, 04:03 PM']mccain says something that is probably true and going to happen (see korea, germany, japan, etc...) , and bj makes a joke about sending him back to being a pow... how classy...[/quote]

Somehow I don't think he was joking.

[|BlackJesus|]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='619242' date='Jan 5 2008, 04:03 PM']mccain says something that is probably true and going to happen (see korea, germany, japan, etc...) , and bj makes a joke about sending him back to being a pow... how classy...[/quote]


[b]If it is true, and he enacted it as President ... then I wish the North Vietnamese would have just offed him. [/b]

[|Bunghole|]

But aren't Japan, Korea and Germany massive success stories in terms of reshaping defeated enemies into vibrant and FREE countries with their OWN way of governing themselves?

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='619263' date='Jan 5 2008, 04:41 PM']But aren't Japan, Korea and Germany massive success stories in terms of reshaping defeated enemies into vibrant and FREE countries with their OWN way of governing themselves?[/quote]


[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/32.gif[/img]

[|BlackJesus|]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='619263' date='Jan 5 2008, 04:41 PM']But aren't Japan, Korea and Germany massive success stories in terms of reshaping defeated enemies into vibrant and FREE countries with their OWN way of governing themselves?[/quote]

[b]1. You are comparing apples to rocks ... removed from all actual context. The US was welcomed by those countries and the overwhelming majority of their population and seen as necessary in the case of S Korea of stopping a North Korean invasion and in the case of West Germany necessary to prevent an invasion from the Soviet Union. As for Japan because of their culture and former emperor's surrender who was a semi god, it allowed them to view the US and McArthur as their new god. Not to mention the amount of $ we had to dump into Germany to rebuild it ... and the fact that those populations were fairly educated and developed and surrounded by helpful neighbors and allies who aided --- (France, Britain, etc and their help with West Germany). [color="#FF0000"]EVERYTHING in Iraq is the exact opposite ![/color] and the majority think it is ok to bomb American troops ... and they won't be keen on us stealing their oil when we start extracting it. Except for maybe the Kurdish area where we would be welcomed as a means to prevent Turkish or Iranian invasion ... but hell RIGHT NOW we are denying Kurdish independence and EVEN allowing TURKEY to BOMB N IRAQ !

2. Let's say hypothetically that occupying countries did have positive effects in all instances .... it still doesn't make it right and it is still imperialism. Hell all Western nations could make the case that certain nations would be better if occupied ... and in fact that is the argument they made on COLONIES for hundreds of years.

--- Your denial of history and willingness to sign off on imperialism and colonialism is frightening. But then again the American system does induce a feeling of superiority on the lesser natives. [/b]

[Go Tory Go!]

The problem with McCain's suggestion is that the presence of American troops in the arab region - at peace or at war - is one of the reasons Al-Qaeda is doing all the things McCain warns about.

Also, the US's involvement in Korea is also quite different from the situation in Iraq; we didn't destroy South Korea and 'reshape' the government, but preserved it. The actual defeated enemy from that conflict is anything but reshaped. And I wonder how much US occupation influenced Germany, which had already been one of the world's strongest industrial economies and a democratic country before the war. I wonder how much of Germany's reconstruction was due to economic partnerships, loans, etc. - I suspect this is the primary cause of their rebirth - as opposed to the actual presence of US troops left there along the iron curtain.

Either way, I sense a fundamental difference between those situations and our present one, since this time we invaded Iraq unprovoked; I guess, to me, it seems if we are to maintain our stance that we are liberators, it is important to avoid overtly imperialist behavior as much as possible. The alternative is fundamentally no different than the European imperial powers of the previous centuries.

[Go Tory Go!]

Damn it, Beej; kindred spirits, thousans of miles away, we were typing similar responses at the same time.

[Homer_Rice]

"Hey! [url="http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp"]We're #1[/url]", or is that, "Hey, [url="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html"]We're #28[/url]?"

What McCain said does not strike me as being too outlandish; it isn't as though he were the only one who thinks that the world [i]needs[/i] American supervision.

And that's the proposition he suggests for consideration at the end of his spiel (I paraphrase): "And I hope that's okay with you."

Now, I think I'll watch a movie. The Manchurian Candidate sounds pretty good! Or, maybe I'll read some Tacitus.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='619291' date='Jan 5 2008, 05:45 PM'][b]1. You are comparing apples to rocks ... removed from all actual context. The US was welcomed by those countries and the overwhelming majority of their population and seen as necessary in the case of S Korea of stopping a North Korean invasion and in the case of West Germany necessary to prevent an invasion from the Soviet Union. As for Japan because of their culture and former emperor's surrender who was a semi god, it allowed them to view the US and McArthur as their new god. Not to mention the amount of $ we had to dump into Germany to rebuild it ... and the fact that those populations were fairly educated and developed and surrounded by helpful neighbors and allies who aided --- (France, Britain, etc and their help with West Germany). [color="#FF0000"]EVERYTHING in Iraq is the exact opposite ![/color] and the majority think it is ok to bomb American troops ... and they won't be keen on us stealing their oil when we start extracting it. Except for maybe the Kurdish area where we would be welcomed as a means to prevent Turkish or Iranian invasion ... but hell RIGHT NOW we are denying Kurdish independence and EVEN allowing TURKEY to BOMB N IRAQ !

2. Let's say hypothetically that occupying countries did have positive effects in all instances .... it still doesn't make it right and it is still imperialism. Hell all Western nations could make the case that certain nations would be better if occupied ... and in fact that is the argument they made on COLONIES for hundreds of years.

--- Your denial of history and willingness to sign off on imperialism and colonialism is frightening. But then again the American system does induce a feeling of superiority on the lesser natives. [/b][/quote]
I'm not denying history...you are ignoring facts. While I agree that all these different war efforts are unique, they all have a binding concept...war.
You think there weren't "terrorist" activities against US occupation post-war in Germany, Japan, et al?
Of course, the technology and suicidal insistence of the "Arab terrorist" wasn't in full bloom yet, so I guess you have me there?
I'm not trying to say what is right or wrong, because in my mind in Iraq, there really isn't any going back now, we are committed. We need to extricate ourselves as soon as logically possible (of course, never completely, too many strategic bases and oil farms to be established there) while supporting the Iraqi government in any way we can.
The whole point of my argument is that there are historical examples of the USA getting involved in conflicts for better or worse that have actually turned enemies into allies, for both nations security and economic benefit.
Germany didn't welcome us....
Korea was an ideological war, similar to the Iraq war in my opinion, that turned out OK except North Korea as it currently stands still exists as a pariah nation...
Japan attacked us, forget your "Emperor as God replaced by American Gods" argument...rational Japanese in the 20th century didn't think that...
Hell, even Vietnam is more prosperous than it ever was...
I am no more in favor of the USA being imperialistic than anyone else, but to deny the way we conduct ourselves in our heavy-handed foreign policy to "protect" our "interests" is folly.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='619294' date='Jan 5 2008, 05:49 PM']The problem with McCain's suggestion is that the presence of American troops in the arab region - at peace or at war - is one of the reasons Al-Qaeda is doing all the things McCain warns about.

Also, the US's involvement in Korea is also quite different from the situation in Iraq; we didn't destroy South Korea and 'reshape' the government, but preserved it. The actual defeated enemy from that conflict is anything but reshaped. And I wonder how much US occupation influenced Germany, which had already been one of the world's strongest industrial economies and a democratic country before the war. I wonder how much of Germany's reconstruction was due to economic partnerships, loans, etc. - I suspect this is the primary cause of their rebirth - as opposed to the actual presence of US troops left there along the iron curtain.

Either way, I sense a fundamental difference between those situations and our present one, since this time we invaded Iraq unprovoked; I guess, to me, it seems if we are to maintain our stance that we are liberators, it is important to avoid overtly imperialist behavior as much as possible. The alternative is fundamentally no different than the European imperial powers of the previous centuries.[/quote]
Well of course Al-Quadea would rather we be on their territory...easier pickings, less financial and logistical obstacles than say, bringing down the WTC towers.

[CincyInDC]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='619359' date='Jan 5 2008, 09:21 PM']Well of course Al-Quadea would rather we be on their territory...easier pickings, less financial and logistical obstacles than say, bringing down the WTC towers.[/quote]

Umm...I think his point was that Al-Quaida's biggest beef with us is that our troops have been in Saudi Arabia since Gulf War I.

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

I'm sorry John McCain's truths sound worse than George Bush's lies.


BJ, had you been in Iraq with me in 2003 you would have realized that we couldn't or weren't leaving anytime soon.

Japan, Germany, South Korea, the Sinia, Panama are all examples of prolonged occupation.

That's the dirty, little secret no one wants to admit.

Decades.

That's how long we will be in Iraq.

BJ, if you die in another 50 years we'll still be in Iraq.

[Scoutforlife591]

Ha. McCain is on Meet the Press right now.

Tim Russert just asked him about this. His first response was, "yeah, as long as American troops aren't dying or getting hurt."

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='CincyInDC' post='619443' date='Jan 5 2008, 11:00 PM']Umm...I think his point was that Al-Quaida's biggest beef with us is that our troops have been in Saudi Arabia since Gulf War I.[/quote]
Oh I know, but let's not forget that we were/are there (I'm speaking solely of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait now) at the host nation's behest to combat....you guessed it, Saddam Hussein, our old pal!
What I find ironic in your rejoinder is that guys like Osama and his ilk point to that infidel presence like we invaded Saudi Arabia, when in fact we were invited there to protect them...and Saudi Arabia is the holiest ground in Islam!

[CincyInDC]

We certainly weren't welcomed with opened arms into Saudi Arabia, and then defense secretary Cheney told everyone that we'd be out once the Iraqi threat was abated. I guess we never eliminated the threat .

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='CincyInDC' post='619670' date='Jan 6 2008, 02:26 PM']We certainly weren't welcomed with opened arms into Saudi Arabia, and then defense secretary Cheney told everyone that we'd be out once the Iraqi threat was abated. I guess we never eliminated the threat .[/quote]
We most certainly were welcomed by the Saudi government, the Saudis were extremely worried about Saddam having machinations against them after he invaded Kuwait! And they can kick us out of their country any time they like.

[CincyInDC]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='619680' date='Jan 6 2008, 02:43 PM']We most certainly were welcomed by the Saudi government, the Saudis were extremely worried about Saddam having machinations against them after he invaded Kuwait! And they can kick us out of their country any time they like.[/quote]

My point was that the Saudis weren't exactly happy about it--even though they yes, they did allow us on their holy sand. As for asking us to leave, would you invite your biggest customer to pound salt?

[Homer_Rice]

Anyone stop to ponder whether it might be the case that Gulf War I was all about imposing an Anglo-American military presence in the Middle East? (Just as the Russians have sought warm-water ports through some rough and tumble means.)

That war was manipulated from the start--a pure geopolitical play.

[LudwigVan Kubrick]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='619263' date='Jan 5 2008, 04:41 PM']But aren't Japan, Korea and Germany massive success stories in terms of reshaping defeated enemies into vibrant and FREE countries with their OWN way of governing themselves?[/quote]


Well if you take a deck of cards, toss it up in the air, let the cards fall randomly to the floor, then spend 60 years of time and money picking them up.

Is that a success story?

:shh:

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='619714' date='Jan 6 2008, 05:05 PM']Anyone stop to ponder whether it might be the case that Gulf War I was all about imposing an Anglo-American military presence in the Middle East? (Just as the Russians have sought warm-water ports through some rough and tumble means.)

That war was manipulated from the start--a pure geopolitical play.[/quote]
So we were in collusion with Saddam Hussein on that one, ordering his invasion of Kuwait, a Mideast ally of ours?