No surprises when ranking the top QBs in the NFL - Scouts Inc.

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='bammorrisgotmehigh' post='678393' date='Jul 12 2008, 01:23 AM']Oh My Goodness!!!!!!!!!! :party: :applaud:

Best post I have ever seen on this site since I have been here!!!![/quote]


Don't get too excited. SF2 always bashes everything Bengal.

[|Lucid|]

Seriously guys... I thought there was a whole forum for this kind of tripe.

I mean comon... Are you guys gonna start arguing over whos daddy could beat who up now as well?

That's pretty much how both arguments sound.


As far as you Steeler trolls... I can understand the fact that the people on this site are a fair bit more interesting to talk to than your bretheren at trailer nation. But that doesn't mean [i]we[/i] want to talk to [i]you[/i].

OK?

[|SF2|]

[quote name='Lucid' post='678405' date='Jul 12 2008, 06:34 AM']Seriously guys... I thought there was a whole forum for this kind of tripe.

I mean comon... Are you guys gonna start arguing over whos daddy could beat who up now as well?

That;s pretty much how both arguments sound.


As far as you Steeler trolls... I can understand the fact that the people on this site are a fair bit more interesting to talk to than your bretheren at trailer nation. But that doesn't mean we weant to talk to you.

OK?[/quote]

I hate the Steelers BUT I have always like Miami of Ohio. My problem is the lust some have on this board for a QB that hasn't gotten the job done. Palmer was not drafted #1 to get us 8 or 9 wins a year and ALMOST make the playoffs just as Big Daddy wasn't drafted #1 to be a decent defensive lineman. Is it fair to blame Carson for everything? Of course not, but when you are the #1 pick highly paid FRANCHISE QB you need to step up and assume leadership of the team. Unless I am missing something, I just don't see it from him.

Five years later and we are STILL equating making the playoffs as a successful season while the Steelers, Colts, Patriots, and Cowboys equate deep playoff runs and rings as a symbol of success. Keep in mind we have still only made it to the playoffs once while Carson was here and REAL close doesn't mean anything except in horseshoes and handgrenades. The clock keeps ticking and we have nothing but nice stats to this point.

Forgive me if everytime I see Carson step to the line of scrimmage, I know he will most likely run the play as called even if the coverage is wrong. I don't see him improvise much and HE is the QB, NOT BRAT. If the play isn't going to work, HE needs to realize it and change it. Furthermore, I would just like to see him take what the other defenses give him once in awhile instead of always trying to throw passes deep to CJ or TJ. There is nothing wrong with a 5 yard pass to the TE to keep the defense honest.

Palmer is a very gifted athlete with a great arm. There is no doubt about that. I just expect more from a can't miss #1 overall pick.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='SF2' post='678425' date='Jul 12 2008, 10:00 AM']I hate the Steelers BUT I have always like Miami of Ohio. My problem is the lust some have on this board for a QB that hasn't gotten the job done. Palmer was not drafted #1 to get us 8 or 9 wins a year and ALMOST make the playoffs just as Big Daddy wasn't drafted #1 to be a decent defensive lineman. Is it fair to blame Carson for everything? Of course not, but when you are the #1 pick highly paid FRANCHISE QB you need to step up and assume leadership of the team. Unless I am missing something, I just don't see it from him.

Five years later and we are STILL equating making the playoffs as a successful season while the Steelers, Colts, Patriots, and Cowboys equate deep playoff runs and rings as a symbol of success. Keep in mind we have still only made it to the playoffs once while Carson was here and REAL close doesn't mean anything except in horseshoes and handgrenades. The clock keeps ticking and we have nothing but nice stats to this point.

Forgive me if everytime I see Carson step to the line of scrimmage, I know he will most likely run the play as called even if the coverage is wrong. I don't see him improvise much and HE is the QB, NOT BRAT. If the play isn't going to work, HE needs to realize it and change it. Furthermore, I would just like to see him take what the other defenses give him once in awhile instead of always trying to throw passes deep to CJ or TJ. There is nothing wrong with a 5 yard pass to the TE to keep the defense honest.

Palmer is a very gifted athlete with a great arm. There is no doubt about that. I just expect more from a can't miss #1 overall pick.[/quote]

You make so many assumptions that I'm not even going to go into trying to address your post.

Your first one being that I even give a shit about this argument. (Which I thought I made myself clear on in the first place)

[Arkansas Bengal]

[quote name='SF2' post='678425' date='Jul 12 2008, 08:00 AM']I hate the Steelers BUT I have always like Miami of Ohio. My problem is the lust some have on this board for a QB that hasn't gotten the job done. Palmer was not drafted #1 to get us 8 or 9 wins a year and ALMOST make the playoffs just as Big Daddy wasn't drafted #1 to be a decent defensive lineman. Is it fair to blame Carson for everything? Of course not, but when you are the #1 pick highly paid FRANCHISE QB you need to step up and assume leadership of the team. Unless I am missing something, I just don't see it from him.

Five years later and we are STILL equating making the playoffs as a successful season while the Steelers, Colts, Patriots, and Cowboys equate deep playoff runs and rings as a symbol of success. Keep in mind we have still only made it to the playoffs once while Carson was here and REAL close doesn't mean anything except in horseshoes and handgrenades. The clock keeps ticking and we have nothing but nice stats to this point.

Forgive me if everytime I see Carson step to the line of scrimmage, I know he will most likely run the play as called even if the coverage is wrong. I don't see him improvise much and HE is the QB, NOT BRAT. If the play isn't going to work, HE needs to realize it and change it. Furthermore, I would just like to see him take what the other defenses give him once in awhile instead of always trying to throw passes deep to CJ or TJ. There is nothing wrong with a 5 yard pass to the TE to keep the defense honest.

Palmer is a very gifted athlete with a great arm. There is no doubt about that. I just expect more from a can't miss #1 overall pick.[/quote]

What an idiotic post. The Steelers, Colts, Patriots and Cowboys don't have a defense like a sieve that loses a 28 -7 halftime lead at HOME. The Steelers, Colts, Patriots, and Cowboys don't have a long snapper that CHOKES at clutch time.

And you obviously forget that Palmer runs the NO HUDDLE offense 40% of the time in which HE chooses the play--not Brat.

Get your facts straight before you make any more bullshit posts.

[cinci1fan1]

[quote name='SF2' post='678385' date='Jul 11 2008, 11:01 PM'][b]he completely mentally buttfucked in teh superbowl, and it took trick plays and WR's throwing passes to win. he bucklefucked under pressure completely. his running game and defense have been his crutch forever.. he has proven more than once when the game is in his hands to win, he fails, he threw 4-5 picks against US in 2005 i a game that all but clinched the division for us in THEIR house.[/b]

Your correct. After winning 4 straight to make it to the playoffs as a 23 year old QB Ben had the audacity to win 3 straight playoff games then completely suck in the SuperBowl. Yeah, he was lucky to win, I agree with that. But to pretend he did not play great in the previous SEVEN FUDKING WINS IN A ROW AT THE AGE OF 23 IS A JOKE. The guy was money when it counted. Was he nervous in the Superbowl? Well, considering he was playing in the MAC in Oxford Ohio two years earlier, yeah, he was probably nervous.

Of course pretty boy Carson never gets rattled. Then again he doesn't play much football in January does he? Doesn't play well enough to play in many January games does he?

Sorry, taking Ben in crunch time. He will take a hit, get back up and do ANYTHING to win. Carson won't. 3 steps, look at 1 then 2 then force to ball. This generation's Archie Manning.

Oh, those trick plays did win them a Superbowl didn't it? Funny how the coaches don't entrust Carson to run any trick plays. Can't imagine why. Oh, Miami of Ohio actually has entrance standards, USC doesn't. Go figure.

Palmer is a less volitile Jeff George. Plenty of physical talent but just can't get it done. And for those of you that think the team has his back on the Chad affair, please site some evidence.[/quote]

What a load bull shit crap. Its not even worth of time to reply for this post and

[Bengals1181]

the funny thing is, Miami University isn't nearly academically elite and 1) the public thinks they are or 2) that they themselves think.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='oftt4' post='678324' date='Jul 11 2008, 05:46 PM']No, the fact is that teams who rely on their QB's to "carry them" are for the most part shitty teams. The fact that Ben doesnt have to throw 40 times a game is a good thing, not a bad thing. Teams with only a good QB and no defense or supporting cast usually suck ass.[/quote]

The stat is 30 passes or more a game. And I just gave you
a huge list of QBs and teams that win while doing so.

But you're right, it's a good thing (for you) that Ben doesn't have to throw a lot in games.
When he does, the Stealers lose.

[quote]And as you consistently choose to ignore (and as mentioned in the quotes you were kind enough to supply), most of his passes come in the first 2-3 quarters....when the game is in question. When the game is still in question in the 4th QTR, Ben continues to throw...and with good results as I proved in my previous post.[/quote]


I'm not ignoring anything. You are.


[quote]Again, I am not saying anything bad about Palmer. I have gone on record many times on this board saying he is a very good QB. But to say that Ben chokes under pressure is assinine considering his accomplishments and, honestly, just reeks of jealousy.[/quote]


I haven't said anything bad about Ben. Just stated a fact.

Jealousy ? ha


[quote name='SF2' post='678385' date='Jul 11 2008, 10:01 PM'][b]he completely mentally buttfucked in teh superbowl, and it took trick plays and WR's throwing passes to win. he bucklefucked under pressure completely. his running game and defense have been his crutch forever.. he has proven more than once when the game is in his hands to win, he fails, he threw 4-5 picks against US in 2005 i a game that all but clinched the division for us in THEIR house.[/b]

Your correct. After winning 4 straight to make it to the playoffs as a 23 year old QB Ben had the audacity to win 3 straight playoff games then completely suck in the SuperBowl. Yeah, he was lucky to win, I agree with that. But to pretend he did not play great in the previous SEVEN FUDKING WINS IN A ROW AT THE AGE OF 23 IS A JOKE. The guy was money when it counted. Was he nervous in the Superbowl? Well, considering he was playing in the MAC in Oxford Ohio two years earlier, yeah, he was probably nervous.

Of course pretty boy Carson never gets rattled. Then again he doesn't play much football in January does he? Doesn't play well enough to play in many January games does he?

Sorry, taking Ben in crunch time. He will take a hit, get back up and do ANYTHING to win. Carson won't. 3 steps, look at 1 then 2 then force to ball. This generation's Archie Manning.

Oh, those trick plays did win them a Superbowl didn't it? Funny how the coaches don't entrust Carson to run any trick plays. Can't imagine why. Oh, Miami of Ohio actually has entrance standards, USC doesn't. Go figure.

Palmer is a less volitile Jeff George. Plenty of physical talent but just can't get it done.[/quote]


I don't know why I spend my time replying to you.
You have proiven to be a tool from your first post.

Anyway, when this subject was discussed last season,
you had a different tone towards Carson.


[quote name='SF2' post='587561' date='Nov 6 2007, 10:48 AM']This is his 5th year as a pro. Next year will be his 6th. At what point does Carson start to look in the mirror and realize that his career is passing him by and he has NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT? One fudking pass in the playoffs? Ben Rothleisberger, Tom Brady and Peyton are getting all the press while Carson once again watches the playoffs from his sofa?

He will soon be at the midpoint in his pro career. His accomplishments?

BTW, it is all about the ring. Seriously, all great players will tell you that.

EDIT: This is in no way Palmer's fault. He is a great QB. We have a great QB on our team IN HIS PRIME and we are watching it slowly slip away. Maybe that is why I am so angry and negative (Sandy Pussy)[/quote]


[url="http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=38457&hl=Ben%20Roethlisberger&st=40"]http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?show...erger&st=40[/url]


Now go away you shit covered stir stick.



[quote]And for those of you that think the team has his back on the Chad affair, please site some evidence.[/quote]


You're the one that made the stupid ass claim. You site some fucking evidence.

[bammorrisgotmehigh]

LOL, I love these threads. Everyone gets all bet out of shape when they are compared. I hope this thread lasts until training camp.

[|SF2|]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='678459' date='Jul 12 2008, 11:41 AM']The stat is 30 passes or more a game. And I just gave you
a huge list of QBs and teams that win while doing so.

But you're right, it's a good thing (for you) that Ben doesn't have to throw a lot in games.
When he does, the Stealers lose.




I'm not ignoring anything. You are.





I haven't said anything bad about Ben. Just stated a fact.

Jealousy ? ha





I don't know why I spend my time replying to you.
You have proiven to be a tool from your first post.

Anyway, when this subject was discussed last season,
you had a different tone towards Carson.





[url="http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=38457&hl=Ben%20Roethlisberger&st=40"]http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?show...erger&st=40[/url]


Now go away you shit covered stir stick.






You're the one that made the stupid ass claim. You site some fucking evidence.[/quote]

I need to site evidence??? THERE IS NO EVIDENCE you idiot. NONE. Chad made his comments and everyone basically just laughed them off. Where was "STFU Chad, Carson is the man" comments? Didn't happen. Yes, last November I said Carson was a great QB and we were pissing his talent away. I still think that is true. I also think his teammates don't hold him in high regard like Big Jen, Brady and Manning aka Peyton. I don't see it. No teammate would ever trash those guys because they would be gone pure and simple. The coaches stood by Carson but the team? Ouch.

Sorry Schooler but all you do is find excuses for this team and bash everyone who disagrees. OH, I just have to remind you of one date: Jan 6, 1991. I know how much you hate being reminded of the date of the last playoff victory. Yes, now is different. We are a much better team and organization. We almost MAKE the playoffs every year. HOMER lives.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='SF2' post='678504' date='Jul 12 2008, 02:52 PM']I need to site evidence??? THERE IS NO EVIDENCE you idiot. NONE. Chad made his comments and everyone basically just laughed them off. [b]Where was "STFU Chad, Carson is the man" comments? [/b] Didn't happen. Yes, last November I said Carson was a great QB and we were pissing his talent away. I still think that is true. I also think his teammates don't hold him in high regard like Big Jen, Brady and Manning aka Peyton. I don't see it. No teammate would ever trash those guys because they would be gone pure and simple. The coaches stood by Carson but the team? Ouch.

Sorry Schooler but all you do is find excuses for this team and bash everyone who disagrees. OH, I just have to remind you of one date: Jan 6, 1991. I know how much you hate being reminded of the date of the last playoff victory. Yes, now is different. We are a much better team and organization. We almost MAKE the playoffs every year. HOMER lives.[/quote]

why would there need to be? Carson brushed it off too. Chad wasn't worth the effort, never has been. For you to try and claim that ANYONE in the locker room had Chad's back is simply idiotic. Hell, TJ wouldn't even stick up for him.

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='SF2' post='678504' date='Jul 12 2008, 03:52 PM']I need to site evidence??? THERE IS NO EVIDENCE you idiot. NONE. Chad made his comments and everyone basically just laughed them off. Where was "STFU Chad, Carson is the man" comments? Didn't happen. Yes, last November I said Carson was a great QB and we were pissing his talent away. I still think that is true. I also think his teammates don't hold him in high regard like Big Jen, Brady and Manning aka Peyton. I don't see it. No teammate would ever trash those guys because they would be gone pure and simple. The coaches stood by Carson but the team? Ouch.

Sorry Schooler but all you do is find excuses for this team and bash everyone who disagrees. OH, I just have to remind you of one date: Jan 6, 1991. I know how much you hate being reminded of the date of the last playoff victory. Yes, now is different. We are a much better team and organization. We almost MAKE the playoffs every year. HOMER lives.[/quote]

Must have told your friends at mbs.com you were going to come harass the sheople again, eh?

[|SF2|]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='678510' date='Jul 12 2008, 04:21 PM']Must have told your friends at mbs.com you were going to come harass the sheople again, eh?[/quote]

I don't know. Why don't you check it out and see if I did? You know EVIDENCE. Fact is Big Jen is a good tough QB that many outsiders consider better than Carson. If he had come here and Carson had gone to Pittsburgh maybe it would be Carson with 1 or maybe 2 rings but thats not the reality. While Pittsburgh quietly goes about its business, we endure the Ocho Cinco, Henry and O'Dell drama.

BTW, I never did say I told you so about Chris Henry and O'Dell. I am sure Old Schooler can pull up some old threads when he finds time and point out that I was blasted for saying O'Dell would never play for us again and Henry was a thug. Sorry but you can continue to live in this dream world and I will continue to point out things that everyone without blinders on can clearly see.

Jan 6, 1991.

[oftt4]

Infighting....you guys really get wound up about this stuff.

I would just like to remind everyone that I didnt say anything bad about Palmer. I dont think I even compared them...but if you want me to....

[quote name='oldschooler' post='678062' date='Jul 10 2008, 01:41 PM']I was talking about the ridiculous stat of Ben's where he is
something like 3-10 0r something (I can't remember the exact stat),
when he is forced to throw 30 or more passes per game.
Something Palmer does all the time.[/quote]

Yes, I admit Ben has a losing record in games where he throws 30 or more times, though obviously I disagree about his throwing 30+ times being the reason they lose.

FYI...Palmer is 20-23 in games where he throws 30 or more times.

More FYI....Palmer is 12-6 in games where he throws fewer than 30 times.

So, naturally everything you say about Ben hurting his team by throwing must also apply to Palmer?

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='oftt4' post='678526' date='Jul 12 2008, 05:43 PM'][b]Infighting....you guys really get wound up about this stuff.[/b]
I would just like to remind everyone that I didnt say anything bad about Palmer. I dont think I even compared them...but if you want me to....



Yes, I admit Ben has a losing record in games where he throws 30 or more times, though obviously I disagree about his throwing 30+ times being the reason they lose.

FYI...Palmer is 20-23 in games where he throws 30 or more times.

More FYI....Palmer is 12-6 in games where he throws fewer than 30 times.

So, naturally everything you say about Ben hurting his team by throwing must also apply to Palmer?[/quote]

Infighting would assume the SF2 is part of this community. In reality he's a sad troll obsessed with hating Mike Brown, with a nasty dispostion and thirst for conflict.

I'm sure trailer... er ummm Steeler nation has it's share of pathetic little men.. Or at least 1 or 2, so you know what I'm talking about (well, maybe not unfortunately)..

[oftt4]

[quote name='Lucid' post='678527' date='Jul 12 2008, 04:46 PM']Infighting would assume the SF2 is part of this community. In reality he's a sad troll obsessed with hating Mike Brown, with a nasty dispostion and thirst for conflict.

I'm sure trailer... er ummm Steeler nation has it's share of pathetic little men.. Or at least 1 or 2, so you know what I'm talking about (well, maybe not unfortunately)..[/quote]

Actually, there was a recent deluge of FNG's. A couple of them are douchebags.

[|SF2|]

[quote name='Lucid' post='678527' date='Jul 12 2008, 05:46 PM']Infighting would assume the SF2 is part of this community. In reality he's a sad troll obsessed with hating Mike Brown, with a nasty dispostion and thirst for conflict.

I'm sure trailer... er ummm Steeler nation has it's share of pathetic little men.. Or at least 1 or 2, so you know what I'm talking about (well, maybe not unfortunately)..[/quote]

Lucid, all the name calling isn't going to change the past or reality. Jen has a Superbowl ring and plenty of post season appearances. I hate the Steelers but respect Big Jen as a player. I hated the 49ers as well but Joe Montana was a great QB. Your troll comments won't change any of this. My response was to some who think Palmer is a much better QB than Ben. Its simply not true.

If I were building an NFL franchise tomorrow and had to chose between Ben and Carson I would pick Carson. Palmer will last longer and will be a quality starter for a long time.

If I needed to pick a QB to win a game tomorrow, I am picking Jen. Sorry but my opinion.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='SF2' post='678532' date='Jul 12 2008, 06:02 PM']Lucid, all the name calling isn't going to change the past or reality. Jen has a Superbowl ring and plenty of post season appearances. I hate the Steelers but respect Big Jen as a player. I hated the 49ers as well but Joe Montana was a great QB. Your troll comments won't change any of this. My response was to some who think Palmer is a much better QB than Ben. Its simply not true.

If I were building an NFL franchise tomorrow and had to chose between Ben and Carson I would pick Carson. Palmer will last longer and will be a quality starter for a long time.

If I needed to pick a QB to win a game tomorrow, I am picking Jen. Sorry but my opinion.[/quote]


You keep trying to bring me into this argument like actually have a side in this...

No need to apologize for your opinion. I'm not trying to "change" anything whatsoever. The name calling is just calling a spade a spade.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='SF2' post='678504' date='Jul 12 2008, 01:52 PM']I need to site evidence??? THERE IS NO EVIDENCE you idiot. NONE. Chad made his comments and everyone basically just laughed them off. Where was "STFU Chad, Carson is the man" comments? Didn't happen. Yes, last November I said Carson was a great QB and we were pissing his talent away. I still think that is true. I also think his teammates don't hold him in high regard like Big Jen, Brady and Manning aka Peyton. I don't see it. No teammate would ever trash those guys because they would be gone pure and simple. The coaches stood by Carson but the team? Ouch.[/quote]

You calling me an idiot is rich.

I don't think you even know what you are talking about.

Carson said all he had to say about Chad when he said "You know what? I have no idea what's going to happen. What he's not going to do is come in and break apart what we have going right now. That sure as hell is not going to happen. I don't know how big of a circus, how little of a circus. I like where we're at. Hopefully he comes in and fits in with what we've created here."

What else was there to be said, by ANYONE?




[quote]Sorry Schooler but all you do is find excuses for this team and bash everyone who disagrees. OH, I just have to remind you of one date: Jan 6, 1991. I know how much you hate being reminded of the date of the last playoff victory. Yes, now is different. We are a much better team and organization. We almost MAKE the playoffs every year. HOMER lives.[/quote]

All I do is find excuses huh? You're right, if your definition of 'excuses" is articles and info.

And I don't bash on people that disagree with me. I just bash on dumbasses.

Oh, and as far as that date, I bet you have it written all over your Mom's basement huh?
Wear it like a badge of honor.

Bill Cowher followed a Hall of Fame coach. Tomlin likewise.
Belicheck is such a great coach, that he installed Bledsoe
as his starter, and lucked out that Brady was actually
better when he went down. That team was built by Parcells
before Belicheck even got there. Neither of them had to
do or deal with, what Marvin had to deal with to get this
team where it is.

Every NFL team has talent. The main difference is injuries.
Injuries have plagued this team since Palmer was Kimo'd.

Marvin has done a damn fine job with this team, all things considered.
And I for one thinks they will surprise this season. As long as the
remain relatively healthy. I bet you hope that isn't the case though.
Cause then you would have to remove your badge of honor . . .



[quote name='oftt4' post='678526' date='Jul 12 2008, 03:43 PM']Infighting....you guys really get wound up about this stuff.[/quote]

No infighting. SF2 is a troll from a board that sits around bashing on the Bengals.
The only reason he first came here is to rile up the 'Sheople'. That's
what they call people that actually like and are optimistic about the Bengals.



[quote]Yes, I admit Ben has a losing record in games where he throws 30 or more times, though obviously I disagree about his throwing 30+ times being the reason they lose.

FYI...Palmer is 20-23 in games where he throws 30 or more times.

More FYI....Palmer is 12-6 in games where he throws fewer than 30 times.

So, naturally everything you say about Ben hurting his team by throwing must also apply to Palmer?[/quote]


43 out of 61 career games, where Palmer has thrown 30 or more passes.
Ben had 13 games out of 56 where he has thrown 30 or more passes.
Palmer has had to do it over 300% more than Ben, and has a better winning
pecentage when he does do it.

No, it doesn't apply. Different systems, different Defenses, ect ect ect.

I have given Ben all the credit I will give him. He is the perfect QB for the Stealers.
But his team would not win as much as the Stealers do if the Offense was put
on his shoulders, like other Elite QBs. That's my opinion.

[Randle P McMurphy]

[quote name='Lucid' post='678202' date='Jul 11 2008, 08:46 AM']That would be an accurate statement except for the fact that we aren't talking about a team.. We are talking about the ability of an individual.

Now if you are comparing CAREERS as a whole, then the success of the team is relevant.. But to pretend it isn't possible that a tremendous talent can be squandered away on a horrible team or that a subpar player could ride the coattails of a great team is ignorant.

In these cases the accomplishments of the team are entirely irrelevant when discussing the abilities of a single player.

Keep it real please.[/quote]

I know that WE unlike YOU are discussing 2 individual QB's. I merely stated my opinion that individual stats dont mean
shit if your team still sucks. You say if comparing careers as a whole then team success is relevant then go on to say
that "to pretend it ISNT possible that a tremendous talent can be squandered away on a horrible TEAM or that a subpar
player could ride the coattails of a great TEAM is IGNORANT which is basically what I just fucking said. Individual
stats dont mean squat if the team isnt successful" IE "Carson" IE "a tremendous talent squandered on a horrible team"

You said that WE were talking about 2 individual QB's. That would include you yet when I go back through the thread
from the beginning this is your first post on the subject. So why dont you give your opinion on the topic instead of just
being a cock bag and saying other's are ignorant.

How's that for keepin it real?

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='Randle P McMurphy' post='678598' date='Jul 13 2008, 09:13 AM']I know that WE unlike YOU are discussing 2 individual QB's. I merely stated my opinion that individual stats dont mean
shit if your team still sucks. You say if comparing careers as a whole then team success is relevant then go on to say
that "to pretend it ISNT possible that a tremendous talent can be squandered away on a horrible TEAM or that a subpar
player could ride the coattails of a great TEAM is IGNORANT which is basically what I just fucking said. Individual
stats dont mean squat if the team isnt successful" IE "Carson" IE "a tremendous talent squandered on a horrible team"

You said that WE were talking about 2 individual QB's. That would include you yet when I go back through the thread
from the beginning this is your first post on the subject. So why dont you give your opinion on the topic instead of just
being a cock bag and saying other's are ignorant.

How's that for keepin it real?[/quote]


Real dumb?

[Randle P McMurphy]

[quote name='Lucid' post='678623' date='Jul 13 2008, 10:56 AM']Real dumb?[/quote]


Real dumb would best describe your 2 replies to the thread. Nice contribution.

[oldschooler]

Not trying to revive this thread. Just didn't want to make
a whole new thread for this . . .


[quote][size=5][b]Ranking the top 25 NFL quarterbacks [/b][/size]
Posted: July 14, 2008
War Room scouts



There are many ways to measure an NFL quarterback -- statistics, ratings and intangibles. Those rare individuals who can put them all together end up in an elite class that measures up to past greats. Getting a ring isn't everything, but it's the one thing upon which top quarterbacks are constantly measured:


1. Tom Brady, New England Patriots. Coming off a stellar 2007 season, his long string of success in the postseason may make him the best of all time.

2. Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts. More No. 1A than No. 2. If you can find a weakness in Manning's game, let us know.

[b]3. Carson Palmer, Cincinnati Bengals. [/b]Throws the ball as well as anyone from recent NFL years. He has great size and a big arm -- now everybody in Cincy needs to take a deep breath and let him work.

4. Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints. A couple seasons removed from the Saints magical postseason run, some forget about Brees, but he is the straw that stirs one of the league's the most prolific passing attacks. Last year, he did it without a running game.

5. Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers. Has a big arm and better mobility than one would expect from a big man. Despite all his natural ability, however, his greatest assets are his playmaking savvy and winner's mentality.

6. Matt Hasselbeck, Seattle Seahawks. The 'Hawks offense goes as Hasselbeck goes, and that's meant good things in Seattle in recent years. His arsenal has been depleted, however, so this season he may struggle to put up numbers that accurately reflect his standing on this list.

7. Tony Romo, Dallas Cowboys. If it weren't for Jessica Simpson, people might actually be forced to talk about Romo's stellar performances on the field, which included 36 TD passes last season. With a few more strong seasons and some success in the playoffs, he will join the ranks of the elite.

8. Brett Favre, Green Bay Packers? Yes, Favre is still this good if it turns out he becomes "unretired" -- especially if he plays like the '07 version. If somehow he gets the gig in Green Bay again, he has a bevy of weapons and a great system in his favor. If he ends up somewhere else, it's anybody's guess.

9. Philip Rivers, San Diego Chargers. A tough hombre who proved he can play through pain. Now he just needs to prove he can consistently play at a high level. His '07 postseason may have been a sign of things to come.

10. Donovan McNabb, Philadelphia Eagles. We began to see glimpses of the old McNabb in the second half of '07 as he gained more confidence in his surgically repaired knee. If he can stay healthy, he is the perfect quarterback to run Andy Reid's offense.

11. David Garrard, Jacksonville Jaguars. Garrard is better than most think, and is more than just another athletic quarterback. With a handful of new wide receivers in the fold, this dual threat could emerge as a top-five signal-caller in '08.

12. Eli Manning, New York Giants. It's a "What have you done for me lately" world, and in that sense Manning should ride the wave of his postseason success. But we also remember how average Manning was during the regular season. If he shows "it" over the course of four months instead of four weeks, he will shoot up this list.

13. Jay Cutler, Denver Broncos. Cutler possesses all the physical tools. Once he improves his decision-making on the field, he will take another quantum leap.

14. Jake Delhomme, Carolina Panthers. An emotional leader on the field, Delhomme runs hot and cold. If he's healthy and he's on, however, he will make the most of an upgraded receiving corps and an improved offensive line.

15. Marc Bulger, St. Louis Rams. Has proved to be productive and accurate throughout his career, but his skills and his supporting cast have been diminished over the years.

16. Derek Anderson, Cleveland Browns. Opponents began to figure out Anderson after his fast start in '07. Now, can he put together another successful campaign and hold off the challenge of Brady Quinn? Anderson has all the pieces around him to make it work.

17. Matt Schaub, Houston Texans. Schaub is smart, poised in the pocket and accurate, but the injuries suffered by him and his teammates, most notably go-to receiver Andre Johnson, have limited his body of work. Prove it on the field over time and we'll talk.

18. Jeff Garcia, Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Garcia's greatest asset is what he doesn't do. He doesn't take sacks and he doesn't throw interceptions. He's smart and accurate, and he keeps drives alive, but he's not the playmaker he once was, and at 38 years, he might as well be 98.

19. Chad Pennington, New York Jets. With a running game and some lineman who block, Pennington can still win in this league. He's smart, experienced, and deadly accurate in the short-to-intermediate game. He has completed 65.6 percent of his pass attempts during his career.

20. Matt Leinart, Arizona Cardinals. Leinart is known for his accuracy in the short to mid-range passing game, but he has enough arm strength to make this work in Arizona. The problem is he is running out of time to prove it. He must do a better job of using his terrific receivers, Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin.

21. Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay Packers. Rodgers has plenty of potential and plethora of weapons at his disposal. Now all he needs is for Favre to go away so he can get his shot without looking over his shoulder.

22. Jason Campbell, Washington Redskins. Campbell is blessed with physical tools, strong intangibles and good upside. However, he needs to learn yet another new offense this season, and the West Coast attack doesn't fit his skills particularly well.

23. Vince Young, Tennessee Titans. Young is an outstanding natural athlete who can attack a defense with his arm and his legs, but he has yet to master the NFL game from the shoulders up. Now he needs to learn a new offense and he still doesn't have a true game-breaking receiver.

24. Trent Edwards, Buffalo Bills. A smart young player who continues to improve. He is a good fit for the Bills' ball control attack, but he isn't a big playmaker yet.

25. Jon Kitna, Detroit Lions. Kitna really shouldn't be starting anymore, but he is the type who ends up playing somewhere. With pass-happy Mike Martz gone, he no longer will have padded aerial stats to hide his deficiencies.

[b]Maybe next year? [/b]

The top breakout candidate to crack the top 25 for '09:

Alex Smith, San Francisco 49ers. Despite his struggles early in his career, the Martz system will help Smith pad his stats and keep the naysayers off his back for the time being. Consider what that offense did for both Marc Bulger and Jon Kitna.[/quote]







[url="http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=434469"]http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=434469[/url]

[oftt4]

I dont have a problem with that article. Everyone has their own opinion. Ben is still listed as a top 5 QB, maybe they didnt hear that he chokes under pressure.

My favorite part of the article is one comment by an Eli lover:



Manning #12
WGullett on Mon Jul 14, 2008 03:24 pm
Guy leads the team through the playoffs and win a Super Bowl and hes number TWELVE? Are you kidding me?

The comment about Manning included the IDIOTIC statement that "they remember how AVERAGE Manning was duriung the REGULAR season. I guess they remember that more than remember what he did in the playoffs. Its like they are saying that even though Manning won the Super Bowl they arent going to give him his props. I can hear Jim Mora saying..."PLAYOFFS?????"

These guys were ranked above Manning????

Drew Brees- based on what? Think NO would take Manning straight up for Brees? Of course.

Hasselbeck- so overrated its sick. This guy is no leader. Hasselbeck is a choke and is VERY comparable to Plummer who was found out and done within a couple years. Whatever Seattle has accomplished in the past few years hasnt been due to anything great Hasselbek has done. As a matter of fact, if Hasselbeck WAS as good a QB as the guy who wrote the column wants to believe Seattle would have done more than they have in the past 5 years. No way is this guy better than Manning.

Tony Romo- Give me a break. Manning outplayed this guy at least 2 of the 3 times they met. Where is all this love for a guy who has never even won a playoff game coming from? If you asked Jerry Jones if he would take Manning for Romo and what do you think he would say?

Roethlisberger- This one is closer but Roethlisburger has regressed somewhat since the SB win. I know injuries have played a part but Mannings stock is increasing while Roethlisbergers has hit a plateau.

Farve- First of all there isnt a 100% chance that he will even play. Farve isnt even in the NFL as we speak. Besides, Farve isnt better than Manning.

McNabb- HUH??? That is just assinine. I guess this guy thinks Manning is the THIRD best QB in his own division.

David Garrard- I am a Jaguar fan and like Garrard but a guy who is a year removed from being a backup isnt better than Manning.

Phillip Rivers- has some definite promise. Rivers has shown that he has the skills to lead a team to the next step, the next step in this case being a Super Bowl victory which Manning just accomplished. Manning is more polished at this point, has as much potential for growth, and has the ring. How Rivers is ahead of Manning is somewhat startling.

[b]EVERY one of the teams would trade those guys straight up for Manning[/b].

My rankings-

1. Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Eli Manning
4. Carson Palmer
5. Roethlisberger
6. Drew Brees
7. Rivers
8. Tony Romeo
9. Garrard
10.Cutler
11.Hasselbeck
12.McNabb



I dont know about you guys, but I dont think I would take that trade. The guy doesnt even make any sense. Roethlisber has hit a plateau? He had the best statistical season of this career last year. Well, whatever...if he plateaus at 3000+ yards, 32TD/11INT and a 104 passer rating I can live with several seasons of that.

[|Bengal Migration|]

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Thanks for the morning humor!

I suffered through watching Eli last year @ Wembley. If he's even considered to be the #3 QB in his own division, I'd say he's still overrated.