Bengals Seat-License Decline 60-80% ?

[oldschooler]

[quote][size=5][b]Seat-License Prices Post First Decline at Online Marketplace [/b][/size]
By Aaron Kuriloff

April 1 (Bloomberg) -- The average price of ticket licenses for U.S. sports teams declined about 20 percent since last year on the world’s largest online marketplace for seat rights, the first decline since the site opened in 2006.

Seasonticketrights.com founder [url="http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Kyle+Burks&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date%3a%44:S:d1"]Kyle Burks[/url] said the average price of a seat license, which gives the holder the right to buy season tickets to a given sports franchise, fell to $2,000 in 2009 from $2,500 in 2008, with low-performing teams in California, Ohio and other states hard-hit by the recession posting the biggest declines.

[b]The National Football League’s Cincinnati Bengals and baseball’s San Francisco Giants sustained the biggest price drops, between 60 and 80 percent[/b], Burks said in an interview.

“There’s really two factors that will affect your year-to- year secondary price,” he said. “Team performance is one and the local economy is the other.”

[url="http://www.seasonticketrights.com/"]Seasonticketrights.com[/url], the world’s largest online marketplace for seat licenses by sales, handles transactions at 19 venues in the major U.S. sports, including 11 in the National Football League.

[url="http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Andrew+Zimbalist&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date%3a%44:S:d1"]Andrew Zimbalist[/url], who teaches [url="http://www.smith.edu/economics/fac_azimbalist.html"]economics at Smith College[/url] in Northampton, Massachusetts, said secondary prices reflect a more accurate view of the worth of tickets than their face value. So- called personal seat licenses, also known as PSLs, function more like a futures contract, with fans predicting what they can afford and how teams will do over multiple years.

‘Long-Term Commitment’

“What people are thinking about when they look at a PSL purchase is making a long-term commitment,” Zimbalist said in a telephone interview. “If a team is performing poorly, fans are less likely to want to make that commitment, especially in these economic times.”

Price drops have been significant for some teams, Burks said. [b]The cost of a Bengals lower-level license dropped from $2,472 in 2007 to $559 this year and a club-seat license [/b]for baseball’s Giants fell from $17,371 to $4,816 over the same period.

“The Giants are down about 60 to 80 percent over the past three years,” he said. “That’s a factor of the California economy, and the Giants went from two years ago having [url="http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Barry%0ABonds&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date%3a%44:S:d1"]Barry Bonds[/url] and the All-Star Game to today struggling to get fans to follow the team. Secondly, the Cincinnati Bengals: team performance has just cratered over the last couple of years.”

California is one of seven states with jobless rates higher than 10 percent, and real estate prices in San Francisco have fallen about 32.4 percent since last year, according to the S&P/Case-Shiller 20-city housing index. Ohio’s jobless rate climbed to a [url="http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2009/03/20/ohio_unemployment.html"]25-year high of 9.4 percent[/url] in March, and the Bengals haven’t had a winning record since 2005.

Constant Volume

While volume of seat-license sales has remained steady in the economic slump, Burks said, only three NFL teams have seen prices increase or hold steady: the Pittsburgh Steelers, the Houston Texans and the St. Louis Rams.

The Steelers won the NFL’s Super Bowl title in February. The 8-8 Texans finished last season winning five of seven games [url="http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/6345486.html"]in a market[/url] where the jobless rate in February was 6.4 percent, compared with 8.1 percent nationally. And licenses for the Rams, who’ve won five games in two seasons, couldn’t get much cheaper at $1,093 for lower-level seats last season.

“The Steelers, that’s primarily because team performance has been outstanding,” he said. “And the Rams, they’ve kind of hit rock bottom.”[/quote]



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[Squirrlnutz]

I thought licenses were only purchased once? Then you didn't have to purchase again provided you kept renewing the season tickets.

Does this mean that there are still seat liscenses available every year or that there are just a bunch of new ones available this year because we sucked?

I was under the impression that since every game has been sold out (for how many years now?) all the PSLs were taken as well. I guess not.

[happyrid]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='760319' date='Apr 1 2009, 03:46 PM']I thought licenses were only purchased once? Then you didn't have to purchase again provided you kept renewing the season tickets.

Does this mean that there are still seat liscenses available every year or that there are just a bunch of new ones available this year because we sucked?

I was under the impression that since every game has been sold out (for how many years now?) all the PSLs were taken as well. I guess not.[/quote]

I believe the article mentioned the secondary market, so it is people selling their seat licenses to other fans. Makes sense in the case of the Bengals. Almost every game last year, there were tickets available for less than face value.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='760319' date='Apr 1 2009, 02:46 PM']I thought licenses were only purchased once? Then you didn't have to purchase again provided you kept renewing the season tickets.

Does this mean that there are still seat liscenses available every year or that there are just a bunch of new ones available this year because we sucked?

I was under the impression that since every game has been sold out (for how many years now?) all the PSLs were taken as well. I guess not.[/quote]


they are talking about people selling them on ebay and places like that. "the marketplace" meaning the open market, not from the team, the tem has NONE open for sale.



and this is common sense that they dropped given the economy, as people went from just listing them for shits and grins at $15,000 figuring if any fools wants to pay that theyll sell it. to many people need to unload them for financial reasons.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='happyrid' post='760322' date='Apr 1 2009, 02:51 PM']I believe the article mentioned the secondary market, so it is people selling their seat licenses to other fans. Makes sense in the case of the Bengals. Almost every game last year, there were tickets available for less than face value.[/quote]


yea it was lame .... palmer fills seats, he played a single home game last year, and it was in a wind typhoon... made for a buncha pansies sitting at home pouting...

even if we are likely out of the palyoffs like some random previous years, palmer fills seats, people wanna see the guy play. i dont even wanna see fitz play in a playoff hunt..


i hope a bunch of lower level sideline seat holders cashed in their tickets... i wanna upgrade!

i cant imagine many just took it in the ass tho, i figure selling the license for $50 is better than getting nothing for it..


ah, and the license they mention is the lower endzone license on a few selling sites ive seen, which is roughly face value i think..

[happyrid]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='760327' date='Apr 1 2009, 03:57 PM']yea it was lame .... palmer fills seats, he played a single home game last year, and it was in a wind typhoon... made for a buncha pansies sitting at home pouting...

[b]even if we are likely out of the palyoffs like some random previous years, palmer fills seats, people wanna see the guy play. i dont even wanna see fitz play in a playoff hunt..[/b]


i hope a bunch of lower level sideline seat holders cashed in their tickets... i wanna upgrade!

i cant imagine many just took it in the ass tho, i figure selling the license for $50 is better than getting nothing for it..


ah, and the license they mention is the lower endzone license on a few selling sites ive seen, which is roughly face value i think..[/quote]

I agree somewhat, but if the Bengals get off to another slow start this year, tickets are going to be dirt cheap. The economy is in the tank and people aren't going to give the Bengals the benefit of the doubt after a slow start.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='happyrid' post='760333' date='Apr 1 2009, 03:14 PM']I agree somewhat, but if the Bengals get off to another slow start this year, tickets are going to be dirt cheap. The economy is in the tank and people aren't going to give the Bengals the benefit of the doubt after a slow start.[/quote]


definitely agree. fans are fickle. always will be.

itll take worse than 1-3 depending what the losses are tho. if we win one home game against say, the steelers, and lose 3 road games in the firs 4.. game 5 will be packed at home, i think.

but if we lose to the browns and the chiefs early at home then its game over seats will be vacant..

always depends on perception.. and the pathetic loss to the browns athome was a quick, early dagger.... and palmers injury coupled with perry's fumbles ended it all pretty quick.

[scharm]

Last season was Blah from the get go. Then the last ditch chance to save the season against the Browns at home sunk it all.

IMO, preseason sucked the life out of the fan base. Palmer's broken nose, Chad's rants during spring then shoulder yada, yada, yada you had a feeling it would suck.

[top6]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='760327' date='Apr 1 2009, 02:57 PM']yea it was lame .... palmer fills seats, he played a single home game last year, and it was in a wind typhoon... made for a buncha pansies sitting at home pouting...

even if we are likely out of the palyoffs like some random previous years, palmer fills seats, people wanna see the guy play. i dont even wanna see fitz play in a playoff hunt..


i hope a bunch of lower level sideline seat holders cashed in their tickets... i wanna upgrade!

i cant imagine many just took it in the ass tho, i figure selling the license for $50 is better than getting nothing for it..


ah, and the license they mention is the lower endzone license on a few selling sites ive seen, which is roughly face value i think..[/quote]
I don't agree with this at all. Palmer is decently popular, but it's a winner that fills the seats - as shown by the Bengals selling out games in 2003 with Jon Kitna as their QB. I also think Chad has been more popular than Carson (based on jerseys I see at games, for what that's worth) over the last few years - although Chad has probably slipped below Carson given his recent shennanigans.

The bottom line is that if they win, they fill seats, and that often carries over to the next year. If they lose, they don't fill seats, and that often carries over as well. I doubt they sell out the early games. And I don't think people really give a crap if they win at home. If they slip to 1-3, 1-4, 2-6 - something like that, which sort of takes them out of contention - they will only sell out the Steelers and Browns games (and that will be mostly Steelers and Browns fans). And I don't think people give a crap who is playing - if they trade for Fitz in week 6, and he is leading them on a playoff run, nobody will care if Palmer is playing or not.

Frankly, the fan base here requires extremely little to sell out every game and be enthusiastic about the team. 8-8 with some hope generally does it. Which is what should make the 2/3 and less full games earlier this decade and (I anticipate) this year especially embarassing for Mike Brown, although I doubt he cares too much and will be able to blame the economy this year.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='top6' post='760353' date='Apr 1 2009, 04:03 PM']I don't agree with this at all. Palmer is decently popular, but it's a winner that fills the seats - as shown by the Bengals selling out games in 2003 with Jon Kitna as their QB. I also think Chad has been more popular than Carson (based on jerseys I see at games, for what that's worth) over the last few years - although Chad has probably slipped below Carson given his recent shennanigans.

The bottom line is that if they win, they fill seats, and that often carries over to the next year. If they lose, they don't fill seats, and that often carries over as well. I doubt they sell out the early games. And I don't think people really give a crap if they win at home. If they slip to 1-3, 1-4, 2-6 - something like that, which sort of takes them out of contention - they will only sell out the Steelers and Browns games (and that will be mostly Steelers and Browns fans). And I don't think people give a crap who is playing - if they trade for Fitz in week 6, and he is leading them on a playoff run, nobody will care if Palmer is playing or not.

Frankly, the fan base here requires extremely little to sell out every game and be enthusiastic about the team. 8-8 with some hope generally does it. Which is what should make the 2/3 and less full games earlier this decade and (I anticipate) this year especially embarassing for Mike Brown, [b]although I doubt he cares too much and will be able to blame the economy this year.[/b][/quote]

how silly.

its embarrassing we have "fans" who think this way.

[scharm]

I think the Bengals sell out every game this year. Could be wrong but if there where mass tickets available they'd be doing the Draft Party/see what seats you can buy thing.

Maybe they still will, I don't know.

[top6]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='760399' date='Apr 1 2009, 04:59 PM']how silly.

its embarrassing we have "fans" who think this way.[/quote]

Very good argument. Solid point.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='scharm' post='760408' date='Apr 1 2009, 05:10 PM']I think the Bengals sell out every game this year. Could be wrong but if there where mass tickets available they'd be doing the Draft Party/see what seats you can buy thing.

Maybe they still will, I don't know.[/quote]

no they are good to go for 2009, there MAY be some ticket packs available. but they arent even expecting that currently, i bug a ticket sales rep on a regular basis.

[quote name='top6' post='760411' date='Apr 1 2009, 05:13 PM']Very good argument. Solid point.[/quote]

there really isnt a good way for me to explain that my life experiences in meeting brown family members, players, coaches, former players and coaches and their opinions of mike and the situation make your post foolish and idiotic... why would i bother?

[top6]

[quote name='scharm' post='760408' date='Apr 1 2009, 05:10 PM']I think the Bengals sell out every game this year. Could be wrong but if there where mass tickets available they'd be doing the Draft Party/see what seats you can buy thing.

Maybe they still will, I don't know.[/quote]

All I know is I got on the wait list right before the 2007 season, and had tickets for 2008. Seems unlikely there was that much of a waitlist for 2009, based on that anectdotal evidence.

I think it was sort of a perfect storm, because the economic crisis really picked up in January and February - right when they were trying to get people to renew. They were already coming off a horrible 2008 season, but with everything going on how many companies can justify paying for tickets in this environment? And how many people have seen their net worth go down by 30, 40, 50% or more? And how many people were laid off, or - just as importantly - are worried about being laid off and can't afford luxuries such as sports tickets?

I will be suprised if they sell out more than the Pittsburgh and Cleveland games - unless they make a run, of course. As I said above, the people in this town require the smallest bit of success to go crazy for this team, as this is really a football region (IMO). But I could be wrong, who knows.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='top6' post='760415' date='Apr 1 2009, 05:20 PM']All I know is I got on the wait list right before the 2007 season, and had tickets for 2008. Seems unlikely there was that much of a waitlist for 2009, based on that anectdotal evidence.

I think it was sort of a perfect storm, because the economic crisis really picked up in January and February - right when they were trying to get people to renew. They were already coming off a horrible 2008 season, but with everything going on how many companies can justify paying for tickets in this environment? And how many people have seen their net worth go down by 30, 40, 50% or more? And how many people were laid off, or - just as importantly - are worried about being laid off and can't afford luxuries such as sports tickets?

I will be suprised if they sell out more than the Pittsburgh and Cleveland games - unless they make a run, of course. As I said above, the people in this town require the smallest bit of success to go crazy for this team, as this is really a football region (IMO). But I could be wrong, who knows.[/quote]


fickle fans drop seats pretty easily. there will always be a changing of hands of the less desireable seats..

i cant say id be interested in keeping my tickets AS MUCH, if i were in the upper deck corner or upper endzone or somewhere i didnt enjoy.

my main draw to the games is a good 18 rows off the field, bengals sideline seat i can see discussions on the sideline, players comin in and talking to coaches, etc.. mostly a better view than tv gives you...

in every stadium accross the glob there is turnover each year.. if the packers have 2 straight losing seasons, tickets changing hands would likely go from 500 a year to 5500 a year.. and still sell out.


and people are allowed to turn down seats, so if someone didnt want the ticket they offered you, doesnt mean they wont want whats available next.

there are less than 1500 people on the waiting list as of mid season when i asked a rep... thats probably lower with the economy and people losing jobs, id guess about 1200. and some would rather go without than take some of the tickets that will likely be given up this year..

i have limited hopes i can upgrade to closer to mid field ont he same sideline.. but the request is in none the less..

[top6]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='760413' date='Apr 1 2009, 05:16 PM']no they are good to go for 2009, there MAY be some ticket packs available. but they arent even expecting that currently, i bug a ticket sales rep on a regular basis.



there really isnt a good way for me to explain that my life experiences in meeting brown family members, players, coaches, former players and coaches and their opinions of mike and the situation make your post foolish and idiotic... why would i bother?[/quote]
We'll see RE 2009. That would be good news, because it is 100X more fun to be at a sold out game than an empty game.

As for your second point, there are actually many ways you could explain that, but instead you just drop names and call everyone who disagrees with you an idiot.

EDIT: also, per your last post, although I am sure you talked to a rep, keep in mind the rep (and the Bengals) have an interest in making it seem like tickets will be hard to come by, otherwise people are less likely to buy a seat license/season tickets and more likely to wait and just pick up individual tickets for a few games (and possibly at below face value).

ANOTHER EDIT: also, btw, as I am a new season ticket holder, do you know when we will hear about our upgrade requests? is it on a rolling basis? just wondering when I can expect to hear.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='top6' post='760418' date='Apr 1 2009, 05:27 PM']We'll see RE 2009. That would be good news, because it is 100X more fun to be at a sold out game than an empty game.

As for your second point, there are actually many ways you could explain that,[b] but instead you just drop names and call everyone who disagrees with you an idiot.[/b][/quote]


eh, after 6 years here sometimes its just easier.. but now that we have dwelled on it it wouldnt have been easier to explain some examples, but it is what it is..


as for sold out games.. would it be so hard to put some instructions up on the board/jumbotron for stupid fans? it seems at LEAST 40% of fans have no idea when to chear and why, or when to be quiet and why..

even when we are pumped on defense and the crowd is into it.... they are quiet while the team is in the huddle then chear when they are at the line and during the play.. a LOT of the point is to disrupt the huddle so someone can mis-hear a snap count, have to repeat themselves, etc, and then disrupt the count at the line, etc, ...

fans suck.

[top6]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='760421' date='Apr 1 2009, 04:31 PM']eh, after 6 years here sometimes its just easier.. but now that we have dwelled on it it wouldnt have been easier to explain some examples, but it is what it is..


as for sold out games.. would it be so hard to put some instructions up on the board/jumbotron for stupid fans? it seems at LEAST 40% of fans have no idea when to chear and why, or when to be quiet and why..

even when we are pumped on defense and the crowd is into it.... they are quiet while the team is in the huddle then chear when they are at the line and during the play.. a LOT of the point is to disrupt the huddle so someone can mis-hear a snap count, have to repeat themselves, etc, and then disrupt the count at the line, etc, ...

fans suck.[/quote]

Well we agree that the fans are dumb. I don't we can even worry about subtleties such as cheering in the huddle, given that they are sometimes LOUD WHEN THE BENGALS HAVE THE BALL. F&@&$&$# IDIOTS. But even with that frustration, the energy of a sold out stadium cheering for the team in a big game is still awesome. 49ers game in 2003. Playoff game (for the first 1 minute, or whatever). Ravens game in 2007. Just a few that I was at that were awesome.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='top6' post='760426' date='Apr 1 2009, 05:43 PM']Well we agree that the fans are dumb. I don't we can even worry about subtleties such as cheering in the huddle, given that they are sometimes LOUD WHEN THE BENGALS HAVE THE BALL. F&@&$&$# IDIOTS. But even with that frustration, the energy of a sold out stadium cheering for the team in a big game is still awesome. 49ers game in 2003. Playoff game (for the first 1 minute, or whatever). Ravens game in 2007. Just a few that I was at that were awesome.[/quote]


the 49ers game in 2003 was great, but the KC game that year was incredible.. many games in 2005 were good, man i hate to even think about the playoff game... *sigh*

[T-Dub]

Why are they no longer doing a draft party?

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='T-Dub' post='760505' date='Apr 1 2009, 11:03 PM']Why are they no longer doing a draft party?[/quote]


lack of turnout... coupled with the late timing, picking at 4:45-5:30 sometime, etc...

would be my guess..

where did u hear this?

i had heard it was on.. a friend sent me an invite

[T-Dub]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='760508' date='Apr 2 2009, 12:18 AM']lack of turnout... coupled with the late timing, picking at 4:45-5:30 sometime, etc...

would be my guess..

where did u hear this?

i had heard it was on.. a friend sent me an invite[/quote]

I was just looking at the event calendar. Maybe it's only open to season ticket holders now? I've followed the draft from a Red's game @ GABP the last couple of years...

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='T-Dub' post='760509' date='Apr 1 2009, 11:21 PM']I was just looking at the event calendar. Maybe it's only open to season ticket holders now? I've followed the draft from a Red's game @ GABP the last couple of years...[/quote]


yea its on.. it was offered to club ticket holders this year and a few others...

[T-Dub]

Ah hell, with the draft starting later our pick will come after the Reds-Braves game (without extra innings)... Bummer.

[|Bengal Migration|]

[quote name='top6' post='760418' date='Apr 2 2009, 06:27 AM']ANOTHER EDIT: also, btw, as I am a new season ticket holder, do you know when we will hear about our upgrade requests? is it on a rolling basis? just wondering when I can expect to hear.[/quote]
I've been told that they will start filling upgrade requests after mid-April, fwiw.