BengalBacker Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 [quote name='Xombie' timestamp='1310063419' post='999975'] I -NEVER- said they were a force for good. I offer they are only a force. Period. And your point about them moving to China is exactly my point. Why, if I were an owner of a large business/conglomeration, would I want to produce my product here? My company is lambasted for making a profit within legal means, viewed as a villain for obeying the letter, if not the spirit, of tax laws, providing my investors with an ever-improving portfolio, and offering jobs that may or may not jive with some peoples' views of entitlement versus their actual worth, while praying that a mistake, whether it is an accident, a broken law, be it through ignorance or malicious means, or a random act of God/Chaos, does not ruin the business plan for the next decade. How is it different that we, as employees, union or not, look out for our self-interest and then not expect our employers not to do the same? We need this to be a symbiotic relationship before every company realizes we are needing them alot more than they may need us as a workforce. [/quote] This. It amazes me how people demonize corporations and want to make it as hard as possible for them to do business here, then use the fact that they move jobs overseas as proof of how evil they are. Whether we like it or not, it's a global economy. In order to compete, we need to encourage business, not chase it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalBacker Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 [quote name='CincyInDC' timestamp='1310074224' post='999987'] I miss Homer. [/quote] I don't. Think for yourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 [quote name='BengalBacker' timestamp='1310078634' post='999992'] This. It amazes me how people demonize corporations and want to make it as hard as possible for them to do business here, then use the fact that they move jobs overseas as proof of how evil they are. Whether we like it or not, it's a global economy. In order to compete, we need to encourage business, not chase it off. [/quote] Competing with 3rd world wages is not what I would call fair competition, would you say we need to have our workforce taking Chinese wages while these same corporations earn record profits? If so then you've bought into the great lie. [quote name='BengalBacker' timestamp='1310078725' post='999993'] Think for yourselves. [/quote] Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOMYJH_d6tE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. " - Abraham Lincoln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1310082578' post='1000001'] "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. " - Abraham Lincoln [/quote] The only problem with this is the fact that our collective laziness and inflated sense of worth "bars" many of our healthy, unemployed to take jobs they find demeaning and the sea of job opportunity has evolved to be service industry-centric, which, in many cases, is truly underemployment. The American workforce of today must accept some responsibility for pricing themselves out of jobs, and not solely blame corporate greed. 40-50 years ago, and this quote would be spot on. Now, at best, it is very debatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='Xombie' timestamp='1310086773' post='1000006'] The only problem with this is the fact that our collective laziness and inflated sense of worth "bars" many of our healthy, unemployed to take jobs they find demeaning and the sea of job opportunity has evolved to be service industry-centric, which, in many cases, is truly underemployment. The American workforce of today must accept some responsibility for pricing themselves out of jobs, and not solely blame corporate greed. 40-50 years ago, and this quote would be spot on. Now, at best, it is very debatable. [/quote] Pricing themselves out of jobs? Against who? The jobs that are being sent are going to 3rd world countries, why do you keep ignoring this? We cant compete against 3rd world wages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1310087669' post='1000010'] Pricing themselves out of jobs? Against who? The jobs that are being sent are going to 3rd world countries, why do you keep ignoring this? We cant compete against 3rd world wages. [/quote] I am not ignoring this. It is my claim that we, as a whole, make it too easy for them to make the decision to leave. And, Jamie, if you can not agree that the UAW, for instance, did not price themselves out of a job, then you are willfully ignoring the other side of the equation. My childhood friend's father was a union steward for the Ford plant in my neck of the woods, and all I can remember is his promises that working for the union was second best to winning the lottery and how we would all be able to have jobs there once we graduated. There is a huge difference between a viable living wage and the expectation of today's workforce within today's global economy. We refuse to do it cheaper, and, in many cases, our quality of workforce is lacking. In this day and age's need to take hard looks at what needs to be cut and what taxes need to be raised, we must take a long, hard look at ourselves in the mirror and realize that we helped put ourselves in this position, just as much as the politicians, the corporations, and the inevitabilities of mostly capitalistic society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='Xombie' timestamp='1310089581' post='1000013'] I am not ignoring this. It is my claim that we, as a whole, make it too easy for them to make the decision to leave. And, Jamie, if you can not agree that the UAW, for instance, did not price themselves out of a job, then you are willfully ignoring the other side of the equation. My childhood friend's father was a union steward for the Ford plant in my neck of the woods, and all I can remember is his promises that working for the union was second best to winning the lottery and how we would all be able to have jobs there once we graduated. There is a huge difference between a viable living wage and the expectation of today's workforce within today's global economy. We refuse to do it cheaper, and, in many cases, our quality of workforce is lacking. In this day and age's need to take hard looks at what needs to be cut and what taxes need to be raised, we must take a long, hard look at ourselves in the mirror and realize that we helped put ourselves in this position, just as much as the politicians, the corporations, and the inevitabilities of mostly capitalistic society. [/quote] So let me see if I have this right. Despite the fact that the wages of the top 2% have skyrocketed in comparison to blue collar workers it's the workers that need to be taking the blame for wanting more money than a 3rd world wage earner? Corporate profits have hit record levels because they lobbied to have the laws changes so they could use 3rd world labor in the name of "free trade". It used to be that Americans got outraged when we built products on sweat shop labor, not defend it as part of "american labor greed" If that is your claim then we will never agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalBacker Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1310080080' post='999995'] Competing with 3rd world wages is not what I would call fair competition, would you say we need to have our workforce taking Chinese wages while these same corporations earn record profits? If so then you've bought into the great lie. Indeed. [/quote] Fair really has nothing to do with it. Again, it's a global economy. If we don't want to take Chinese wages, then we need to do other things to try to keep, and encourage business here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='BengalBacker' timestamp='1310095141' post='1000024'] Fair really has nothing to do with it. Again, it's a global economy. If we don't want to take Chinese wages, then we need to do other things to try to keep, and encourage business here. [/quote] No we can do the things we did for decades and ensure that those who would send those jobs away get taxed for doing so and make it prohibitive to profit off of sweatshop labor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 [img]http://www.cagle.com/working/110702/keefe.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 [img]http://www.cagle.com/working/110629/keefe.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Numbers| Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='BengalBacker' timestamp='1310078725' post='999993'] I don't. Think for yourselves. [/quote] Homer is welcome back as long as he ditches the disco costume... [img]http://images.halloweencostumes.org/disco-sleeze-costume.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='Xombie' timestamp='1310086773' post='1000006'] The only problem with this is the fact that [b]our collective laziness and inflated sense of worth[/b] "bars" many of our healthy, unemployed to take jobs they find demeaning and the sea of job opportunity [b]has evolved[/b] to be service industry-centric, which, in many cases, is truly underemployment. The American workforce of today must accept some responsibility for [b]pricing themselves out of jobs[/b], and not solely blame corporate greed. 40-50 years ago, and this quote would be spot on. Now, at best, it is very debatable. [/quote] The first bolded statement seems rather presumptuous, the second is loaded as if there was a natural progression as opposed to concerted efforts on behalf of the suppliers to eliminate labor (costs), and the third can be seen as dishonest because in many cases we never see a decline in corporate revenue, in fact we see bold increases as jobs are eliminated or shipped elsewhere. As I've come to understand it, from the beginning of the industrial revolution until the 1970s there was generally an increase in American workforce welfare. Representation in legislation, safety conditions in work environments, child labor laws, wage increases all brought the general welfare of the labor force up. But since the dawn of globalization the welfare of the worker has not risen at the same rate as the profit of corporations. What examples can you offer that would help me believe "Americans priced themselves out of jobs" as opposed to "Corporations seized the opportunity to exploit slavery abroad." I'd be inclined to believe that if corporate profits grew at a relatively stable rate from a time prior to globalization through now as opposed to the exponential growth "hockey stick" graphs that their profits were soon reported as once they abandoned the symbiotic relationship they developed with American labor and leeched onto slave labor abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1310145132' post='1000121'] The first bolded statement seems rather presumptuous, the second is loaded as if there was a natural progression as opposed to concerted efforts on behalf of the suppliers to eliminate labor (costs), and the third can be seen as dishonest because in many cases we never see a decline in corporate revenue, in fact we see bold increases as jobs are eliminated or shipped elsewhere. As I've come to understand it, from the beginning of the industrial revolution until the 1970s there was generally an increase in American workforce welfare. Representation in legislation, safety conditions in work environments, child labor laws, wage increases all brought the general welfare of the labor force up. But since the dawn of globalization the welfare of the worker has not risen at the same rate as the profit of corporations. What examples can you offer that would help me believe "Americans priced themselves out of jobs" as opposed to "Corporations seized the opportunity to exploit slavery abroad." I'd be inclined to believe that if corporate profits grew at a relatively stable rate from a time prior to globalization through now as opposed to the exponential growth "hockey stick" graphs that their profits were soon reported as once they abandoned the symbiotic relationship they developed with American labor and leeched onto slave labor abroad. [/quote] This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1310145132' post='1000121'] The first bolded statement seems rather presumptuous, the second is loaded as if there was a natural progression as opposed to concerted efforts on behalf of the suppliers to eliminate labor (costs), and the third can be seen as dishonest because in many cases we never see a decline in corporate revenue, in fact we see bold increases as jobs are eliminated or shipped elsewhere. As I've come to understand it, from the beginning of the industrial revolution until the 1970s there was generally an increase in American workforce welfare. Representation in legislation, safety conditions in work environments, child labor laws, wage increases all brought the general welfare of the labor force up. But since the dawn of globalization the welfare of the worker has not risen at the same rate as the profit of corporations. What examples can you offer that would help me believe "Americans priced themselves out of jobs" as opposed to "Corporations seized the opportunity to exploit slavery abroad." I'd be inclined to believe that if corporate profits grew at a relatively stable rate from a time prior to globalization through now as opposed to the exponential growth "hockey stick" graphs that their profits were soon reported as once they abandoned the symbiotic relationship they developed with American labor and leeched onto slave labor abroad. [/quote] X3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 I do enjoy a good cartoon. It's a shame we have to reign in, stifle, strangle, suffocate and destroy corporations -- but it's us or them and I vote we save ourselves. <-- Seriously though, I think there's a middle ground, and I'm positive it won't be reached based on the benevolent, good wishes of the board. And if you don't have the ability to send a painful message to the mastiff every now and again, it's going to bite somebody. Too bad for the victim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 [quote name='CincyInDC' timestamp='1310201651' post='1000182'] Seriously though, I think there's a middle ground, and I'm positive it won't be reached based on the benevolent, good wishes of the board. And if you don't have the ability to send a painful message to the mastiff every now and again, it's going to bite somebody. Too bad for the victim? [/quote] This I can mostly agree without any problem. I believe in strict, efficient regulations and regulators on every major industry that abides in this country. I just have an issue with the knee jerk, bloated bureaucracy, that is wielded as a weapon for political means and not as shield for the citizenry, the equality of business opportunities, the environment, etc, etc that is currently in place. And you are deadly correct with your assessment that whatever theoretical compromises, best intentions, and understanding, if not necessarily agreeing, a differing viewpoint will most likely never reaches the eyes and ears of anyone that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1310081778' post='999998'] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOMYJH_d6tE [/quote] Why can't someone like Elizabeth Warren run for president? Answer: She is too smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 I like her. She is awesome. I'd vote for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1310477678' post='1000594'] Why can't someone like Elizabeth Warren run for president? Answer: She is too smart. [/quote] Answer: The oligarchs run this country and oppose her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Finklestein Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1310510153' post='1000673'] Answer: The oligarchs run this country and oppose her. [/quote] Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 [img]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-AOJ02kzz5rU/TgjtEI6rioI/AAAAAAAALyQ/bAF9kjCBedE/toilet.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1311090643' post='1001662'] [img]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-AOJ02kzz5rU/TgjtEI6rioI/AAAAAAAALyQ/bAF9kjCBedE/toilet.jpg[/img] [/quote] Now this is the best political cartoon I have seen in a long time. It actually has an air of truth and doesn't rely on vitriol to put it's message forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.