Guest BlackJesus Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 [img]http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols2/flag.burning.jpg[/img] [color="blue"][u]House approves flag-burning amendment; uphill battle seen in Senate LAURIE KELLMAN Associated Press June 22nd , 2005[/color][/u] WASHINGTON - A constitutional amendment to outlaw flag burning cleared the House Wednesday but faced an uphill battle in the Senate. An informal survey by The Associated Press suggested the vote there could be close. The 286-130 outcome was never in doubt in the House, which had passed the measure or one like it five times in recent years. The amendment's supporters expressed optimism that a Republican gain of four seats in last November's election could produce the two-thirds approval needed in the Senate as well after four failed attempts since 1989. But an AP survey Wednesday found 34 senators on record as opposing the amendment - the exact number needed to defeat it, barring a change in position. Democratic Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York and Ken Salazar of Colorado declined to state their positions Wednesday. Members of the Missouri delegation largely supported the amendment, with the exception of Democratic Reps. William Lacy Clay and Emanuel Cleaver, who voted against it. Supporting the measure were Democratic Reps. Russ Carnahan and Ike Skelton and Republican Reps. Todd Akin, Sam Graves, Roy Blunt, Jo Ann Emerson and Kenny Hulshof. "Desecrating the American flag is an outrage that should always be condemned," Clay said in a statment. "But we have to remember that the flag represents freedom. And we shouldn't try to defend freedom by weakening the first amendment." Blunt acknowledged the Constitution protects citizens' rights to express anger at the United States, but said the proposed amendment "draws the line at destroying or damaging the American flag that our veterans have followed into war." Carnahan spokeswoman Heather Lasher Todd said the St. Louis-area congressman "felt it was his job to represent the majority of his constituents' opinion on this matter." Cleaver suggested the debate over the amendment was a waste of time and a way for Republicans to shift attention from the important issues facing the country. "Of course, I find desecration of the American flag deplorable," he said. "However, I do not believe Congress is doing the peoples' work when we spend hours debating unnecessary legislation that does nothing to solve the problems facing our constituents back home. "We are not doing the peoples' work by voting on a bill that is simply a ploy by House Republicans to distract the American people from their party's failures." House debate fell along familiar lines over whether the amendment strengthened the Constitution or ran afoul of its free-speech protections. Supporters said there was more public support than ever because of emotions following the 2001 terrorist attacks in New York and Washington. They said detractors are out of touch with public sentiment. "Ask the men and women who stood on top of the Trade Center," said Rep. Randy (Duke) Cunningham, R-Calif. "Ask them and they will tell you: pass this amendment." Critics accused the amendment's supporters of exploiting the attacks to trample the right to free speech. "If the flag needs protection at all, it needs protection from members of Congress who value the symbol more than the freedoms that the flag represents." said Rep. Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y., whose district includes the site of the former World Trade Center. The last time the Senate voted on the amendment the tally was 63 in favor and 37 against, four votes short of the two-thirds majority needed. Now, with more than two dozen new members, a four-seat Republican gain in the last election and a public still stung by the terrorist attacks in 2001, activists on both sides say the Senate could be within a vote or two of passage. But the amendment's prospects faded late Wednesday when Democratic Sens. Maria Cantwell of Washington and Mark Pryor of Arkansas revealed that they would oppose it. Possible presidential contenders who have supported the amendment in the past include Evan Bayh, D-Ind., Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., and John McCain, R-Ariz. Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del., a likely presidential candidate, has said he would oppose the amendment. The proposed one-line amendment to the Constitution reads, "The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States." For the language to be added to the Constitution, it must be approved by two-thirds of those present in each chamber, then ratified within seven years by at least 38 state legislatures. The amendment is designed to overturn a 5-4 Supreme Court ruling in 1989 that flag burning is a protected free-speech right. That ruling threw out a 1968 federal statute as well as flag-protection laws in 48 states. The law was a response to anti-Vietnam War protesters setting fire to American flags at demonstrations. The Senate could consider the measure as soon as next month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 [color="blue"][i][b]I recognize that it is a National symbol, and men have died in past wars carrying it.... However [u]I think one of the most partiotic symbols is a Burning American Flag[/u]. To me it represents dissent, freedom of speech, and demostrates that those who do not approve have the freedom to show that dissent.[/b][/i][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 [i][b]Also if they outlaw it.... they would have to outlaw desecration of any form, .... not just bruning, they would have to outlaw rubbing your balls with it, running it over, leaving it out in the rain, etc etc etc etc My only fear is that some senators will be pressured to vote for the ban so they are not labeled (terrorist Flagburners)[/b][/i] [img]http://www.angels-of-love.com/images/bush_signs_flag.jpg[/img] [color="blue"][i]For instance - Bush desecrating a Flag [/color][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomer07 Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 Fuck no. it shouldn't be illegal. Just because it offends some people it should be illegal? No way. I, personally would never burn a flag. I love the flag, I have one on my car (a sticker). But I'd defend anyone's right to speak out against the government, however they see fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 Aw crap jza, you BJ and Smoov got to stop your tailgating practices now.. (refer to the sadam dorioto thread before you bash me) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 You can burn our flag just don't burn our country Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest #22 Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 Damn Straight. I HATE these people that are so fucking patriotic and let their flags rot on the poles. Never taking them down (or putting a light on them), and not folding them. I think people who talk the talk when it comes to flags should walk the walk. Some of the loudest mouthed pseudo-patriots I know don't even hang a flag and sat at home in all of our wars. I recently climbed up 20 feet in a flimsy Paper Birch to saw a limb off interfering with our flag, mainly because I was bored, but also because I love my country. I really fucking hate the way it is run, however. But, in general, I like to leave symbols to the symbol-minded (to steal a phrase from George Carlin). I also feel that people should be allowed to burn flags if the feel like it. We do live in a free country, after all. Anyone remember that Cubs game in the late 60's/early 70's where the hippie fan got out onto the field burning a flag and a cubbie (I forget which one) absolutely beat him up? I hear so many stories about that, and can never seem to identify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 [i][b]I was reminded of this old pic [/b][/i] [img]http://www.savethehumans.com/images/pakistan_priceless.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 An American should only burn a flag when it is to be disposed of for being old and raggedy....BJ's pic is in no way representative of America since it is a bunch of Arabs burning it, which infuriates me to a degree, but I understand their hatred....yet we still are becoming the lone beacon of democratic govt in the world...love it or leave it.....and we ARE bringing good to the Middle East DESPITE the casualties we've inflicted (price of war, motherfuckers) and that good will continue.....BJ has an Afro/3RD world centralized view because he witnessed people living in rags....if it weren't for us, they wouldn't even have the rags....we give money like crazy and yet we are hated...you want to talk about shutting down our borders with Mexico, think about the impact our withdrawal from the UN would have....since every member nation is granted membership based on ability to pay...and guess who pays? And doesn't get appreciated? USA!!!!!!!! Your tired, past stuff about American Indians holds no weight with me...why should we give them any more than they currently have? Yeah, our great-great-great grandfathers warred and exterminated them, but that was in the 19th century! A NEW WORLD ORDER...thousand points of light....democracy in the Middle East.... Biblical-sounding to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 [quote]An American should only burn a flag when it is to be disposed of for being old and raggedy....BJ's pic is in no way representative of America since it is a bunch of Arabs burning it, which infuriates me to a degree, but I understand their hatred....yet we still are becoming the lone beacon of democratic govt in the world...love it or leave it.....and we ARE bringing good to the Middle East DESPITE the casualties we've inflicted (price of war, motherfuckers) and that good will continue.....BJ has an Afro/3RD world centralized view because he witnessed people living in rags....if it weren't for us, they wouldn't even have the rags....we give money like crazy and yet we are hated...you want to talk about shutting down our borders with Mexico, think about the impact our withdrawal from the UN would have....since every member nation is granted membership based on ability to pay...and guess who pays? And doesn't get appreciated? USA!!!!!!!! Your tired, past stuff about American Indians holds no weight with me...why should we give them any more than they currently have? Yeah, our great-great-great grandfathers warred and exterminated them, but that was in the 19th century! A NEW WORLD ORDER...thousand points of light....democracy in the Middle East.... Biblical-sounding to me...[/quote] [i][b]Wow Bung all of that and you didn't even answer the simple question in the poll. are you drunk? Nothing in this thread mentions, Africa, the U.N., Indian extermination,..... the subject is the Congress making Flag burning illegal .... as for the biblical reference... that is just how Bush wants it I am sure.... [/b][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 Yes, drunk. after re-reading this morning, regret posting. Yikes. Burning the flag still sucks...find some other way to voice your discontent IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldschooler Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 Should it be illegal ? NO But they should have their asses kicked when they do ! And THAT shouldn`t be illegal either ! [img]http://www.screamingeagle326.com/graphics/flagburn.jpg[/img] [img]http://funn-e-stuff.com/wardept/Untitled01.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 even though your a loser, anti-american retard if you burn the flag imo... it should NOT be illegal to burn it... freedom of speech... can't believe taht this is being brought up right now... but it is very, very obvious that the consitution would be pissed on, if we don't allow the freedom to do it... but like i said, you suck if you do... <edit> and bj, i don't see it as a patriotic thing to actually burn the flag... it is very, very unpatriotic (in most cases) imo... but to stand up for the freedom to do that, is a different story... did you burn a bengals jersey, when mike brown had the bengals all screwed up??? i would throw darts at brown (or bush if thats who you hate) but not burn the team itself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalsCat Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 Personaly i think burning the flag is very very wrong and i would probly get in a fight if i ever saw someone doing it. But it is there right since it is "freedom of expression" and i think it s more important to hold on to these rights then take them away because someone feels offended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 I used to piss and moan about it when I was assigned to color guard duties when in the Navy. You gotta get all suited up twice that day, in addition to your other duty day tasks. Then, for that ten minutes when you are actually doing the job, you actually feel a little reverent, as if one were in church. However, I can't help but think that those who support a flag-burning amendment are either misguided simpletons, or political charlatans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 [i][b]If our simple non scientific poll is any indication of America I would estimate that the Public would also not be in favor of making it illegal.... However who knows ? I could actually see the public as a whole going for the amendment because they would just be voting on emotion [/b][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 [quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 23 2005, 02:49 PM'][i][b]If our simple non scientific poll is any indication of America I would estimate that the Public would also not be in favor of making it illegal.... However who knows ? I could actually see the public as a whole going for the amendment because they would just be voting on emotion [/b][/i] [right][post="106411"][/post][/right][/quote] heres my partisan shot at republicans... dem's listen up, b/c it doesn't happen often it is pretty sad to bring a bill out that is this important to freedom, but also plays w/ our emotions... this is a huge miscalculation from republicans... this bill was brought out to show "un-patriotic" democratic senators... i beleive that some there are somewhay un-patriotic, but that is no reason to play w/ the fire they are playing w/... they figured that they would all vote to ban it, b/c if they don't then they look like they aren't standing up for our flag... standing up for our consitution is far from un-patriotic... i don't know how scientific our poll is, b/c most of us that would vote for that, is smart enough to not look at the specific incident... in other words, i believe that is very, very wrong to burn an american flag, if your an american... but the last thing i'm going to do is not follow our first amendment... the consitution is more important than my personal feeling on people burning the flag... this poll shows the extreme miscalculation on rep's part... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackJesus Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 [color="blue"][b]not me I promise [/b][/color] [u]Sarasota 'anarchists' accused of burning flags The Associated Press June 28, 2005[/u] SARASOTA -- Two Sarasota teens accused of burning six American flags have been charged with arson and manufacturing a firebomb. Scott A. Baber and Brian A. Richard III, both 18, told deputies they burned the flags because they are anarchists and disagree with the war in Iraq and other U.S. government policies. They set fire to six flags Sunday and tried to firebomb a car, the Sarasota County Sheriff's Office said. Richard remained in jail today on $402,120 bail. Baber was released Monday on $101,120 bail. The pair were charged with arson, manufacture of a fire bomb and criminal mischief. Baber and Richard burned about five flags at homes in the Bent Tree subdivision, where they live with Baber's parents, then set fire to a flag at its clubhouse, said Lt. Chuck Lesaltato, a spokesman for the Sarasota County Sheriff's Office. "Our deputies came up on them as they were returning to their car," he said. The arrest of his son surprised Brian Richard II. "His grandfather was a decorated military man. The whole thing really stunned me. I was really sad that they made that choice," the elder Richard said. Residents of the golf course community were also upset. "How stupid," Pat Davidson said, straightening the stones surrounding her blackened flagpole. "What kind of thrill would you get burning an American flag?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gonzoid Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 I'm glad Congress has solved all other problems so that they can focus on this extremely important issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BadassBengal Posted June 28, 2005 Report Share Posted June 28, 2005 [quote name='BlackJesus' date='Jun 28 2005, 02:52 PM']Baber was released Monday on $101,120 bail. [right][post="108331"][/post][/right][/quote] My mom would have left my black ass in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nati Ice Posted June 29, 2005 Report Share Posted June 29, 2005 i think under no circumstances should an american citizen burn the american flag unless it is for disposal purposes and done only by the vfw ...however... i believe any american citizen has the rights laid out in the bill of rights to express themselves in whatever (legal) way they deem necessary -so i guess it is with this that i find myself tangled between the web of beliefs for which both typical right and left wingers identify themselves with... my personal beliefs are that this action should not be committed but i do believe that we as citizens of this country possess every legal right to do so if we deem it necessary... and with that said i believe that it should not be done... but i do not believe that making it illegal is the correct way to go about it either i guess i would agree with allowing the burning of the american flag butat the same time i would do everything possible (legal means only) to discourage this act Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BadassBengal Posted June 29, 2005 Report Share Posted June 29, 2005 Freedom of speech, freedom of speech, freedom of speech. There is simply no reason to burn a flag. If you're using it as a way to protest, then you're not getting your point across, you're just burning good fabric. Fuck it. I'm all for the 1st admendment and all that, but there should be some exceptions to it, and I believe this should be one. It's stand for our fucking country. If you want to burn our flag, then get the fuck out. I usually don't side with the decisions our country makes when it comes to foreign affairs and such, but It simply pisses me off thinkin of American citizens burning our fucking flag as a shitty way of protesting. Whatever. I voted yes. And please don't respond to this with some overly complex analysis, cause I'd probably not know how to respond to it. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted June 29, 2005 Report Share Posted June 29, 2005 The following quote is taken from a conservative e-letter I subscribe to (The Federalist). I thought this person said it well: "I love my country and its flag as much as anybody, but I'd rather live in a country where people don't burn the flag because they don't want to, rather than in a country where they don't burn the flag because it's prohibited. The purpose of the Constitution is to limit what government can do, not to limit what the people can do. Leave the Constitution alone." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomer07 Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 [quote name='Jason' date='Jun 29 2005, 07:52 PM']The following quote is taken from a conservative e-letter I subscribe to (The Federalist). I thought this person said it well: "I love my country and its flag as much as anybody, but I'd rather live in a country where people don't burn the flag because they don't want to, rather than in a country where they don't burn the flag because it's prohibited. The purpose of the Constitution is to limit what government can do, not to limit what the people can do. Leave the Constitution alone." [right][post="108734"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Dan_Bengals_FL- Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 I meant to vote no but voted yes. Oh well. Would I personally burn the flag? No. Do I think others should have the right to? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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