Homer_Rice Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1340327503' post='1136218'] After a meal of sauerkraut & sausage, followed by several beers, mine have the delicate fragrance of lavender. [/quote] I just had a vision of your blast wave burning down forests and killing little critters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1340212272' post='1136044'] Then present the ideals, and discuss them, because so far in this thread for reasons I dont know that I understand, you have failed to do that, you are more concerned with my use of the term sheep than you are of the ideals which you claim to understand. If I am wrong about those people, they should show me I am wrong by doing the same. However I don't think I am, and their silence is deafening. [/quote] Sorry for the delay in response, my girlfriend's daughter has a heinous ear infection and had to go to the hospital... And, if I may say, becoming a psuedo-father figure cuts into one's forum time. Who would have thunk it... I have presented my views on many occassions. I believe in a more libertarian skew to the current political reality. You know that, we have discussed them, at length, before. I generally do not post my opinions simply because I know what I think, and I find it more important to see what other think on a variety of subjects and how they come to their conclusions. That is the only way I believe that I can determine what blindspots my view may have. And as the posts become more vitriolic and hyperbolic, less and less actual discussion happens. And when a group of posters decide that it is perfectly reasonable to spout soundbite wisdom, with the sole intent to be insulting to any who may hold some of those views in the most broad sense, someone should bring them to task on it. I don't think you would lambast the entire Muslim faith for those that tout strict, Shariya(sp?) doctrine, would you? Every Christian is fair game because the Westboro cult are bigots? All I am asking is that, for the site's own good, maybe people should not go out of their way to be d-bags. That being said, conflict is going to happen whereever there is human discourse, and that is not entirely bad, but the previous behavior isn't going to make it better, just more bitter and reactionary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Xombie' timestamp='1340343646' post='1136234'] Sorry for the delay in response, my girlfriend's daughter has a heinous ear infection and had to go to the hospital... And, if I may say, becoming a psuedo-father figure cuts into one's forum time. Who would have thunk it... I have presented my views on many occassions. I believe in a more libertarian skew to the current political reality. You know that, we have discussed them, at length, before. I generally do not post my opinions simply because I know what I think, and I find it more important to see what other think on a variety of subjects and how they come to their conclusions. That is the only way I believe that I can determine what blindspots my view may have. And as the posts become more vitriolic and hyperbolic, less and less actual discussion happens. And when a group of posters decide that it is perfectly reasonable to spout soundbite wisdom, with the sole intent to be insulting to any who may hold some of those views in the most broad sense, someone should bring them to task on it. I don't think you would lambast the entire Muslim faith for those that tout strict, Shariya(sp?) doctrine, would you? Every Christian is fair game because the Westboro cult are bigots? All I am asking is that, for the site's own good, maybe people should not go out of their way to be d-bags. That being said, conflict is going to happen whereever there is human discourse, and that is not entirely bad, but the previous behavior isn't going to make it better, just more bitter and reactionary. [/quote] I dont see the correlation between the anarchocapitialism and it's followers, or further those who follow it not understanding it's implications, I lambast and any faith. One is based on just that, faith, the other flys in the face of facts and history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1340367356' post='1136247'] I dont see the correlation between the anarchocapitialism and it's followers, or further those who follow it not understanding it's implications, I lambast and any faith. One is based on just that, faith, the other flys in the face of facts and history. [/quote] You are basing the entire group with the standards of a subset of that whole. Because I lean Libertarian, do I believe all regulations should be wiped away and every government service be privatized? No. Could some of the lesser examples of both be? Definitely. Like most political beliefs, especially in our country, the best are blends made up of the entire table of -isms, and most people are not the dyed-in-the-wool types, and prefer to accept aspects of all. But, for you, it is way easier to make sweeping generalizations and leave it at that. I mean, all of us uncouth, evil Libertarians all look alike, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Xombie' timestamp='1340376942' post='1136303'] You are basing the entire group with the standards of a subset of that whole. Because I lean Libertarian, do I believe all regulations should be wiped away and every government service be privatized? No. Could some of the lesser examples of both be? Definitely. Like most political beliefs, especially in our country, the best are blends made up of the entire table of -isms, and most people are not the dyed-in-the-wool types, and prefer to accept aspects of all. But, for you, it is way easier to make sweeping generalizations and leave it at that. I mean, all of us uncouth, evil Libertarians all look alike, right? [/quote] Ill tell you what, give me some examples in which privatization has been a boon. And I'm talking libertarian economics, not social policy which I would fall under, that's why I use the term anarchocapitialsm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1340377044' post='1136304'] Ill tell you what, give me some examples in which privatization has been a boon. [/quote] Admittedly, it is early in the process yet, but I believe space exploration will be a tremendous one. Cities that have privatized sanitation services report consistent savings to their citizens, as opposed to when it was a city run service. Most technologies that find their origins in the military that are then co-opted for mass production are privatized. And while I know you will disagree with it, privatized medicine has been a boon to civilization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Xombie' timestamp='1340377935' post='1136307'] Admittedly, it is early in the process yet, but I believe space exploration will be a tremendous one. Cities that have privatized sanitation services report consistent savings to their citizens, as opposed to when it was a city run service. Most technologies that find their origins in the military that are then co-opted for mass production are privatized. And while I know you will disagree with it, privatized medicine has been a boon to civilization. [/quote] I would argue that privatized space exploration will lead to only those who can afford it getting off this planet once it is necessary to do so, the rest of the population be damned. I would also argue that well written regulation is a boon to the consumer because it ensures competition in the private sector to begin with as seen in your example of [url="http://www.inthepublicinterest.org/article/past-experience-many-cities-suggests-privatizing-sanitation-services-wasnt-panacea"]privatized sanitation[/url] where larger cities it didnt do much for due to that lack of competition. Military techonologies such as the internet I dont consider an example of privatization when private companies create on top of what was created by government, I actually consider that a very good example of why government investment in ourselves is a [b]very good[/b] thing. I wouldn't hold up the US health care system as good, there are many statistics showing how bad we are for a industrialized nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1340380269' post='1136316'] I would argue that privatized space exploration will lead to only those who can afford it getting off this planet once it is necessary to do so, the rest of the population be damned. I would also argue that well written regulation is a boon to the consumer because it ensures competition in the private sector to begin with as seen in your example of [url="http://www.inthepublicinterest.org/article/past-experience-many-cities-suggests-privatizing-sanitation-services-wasnt-panacea"]privatized sanitation[/url] where larger cities it didnt do much for due to that lack of competition. Military techonologies such as the internet I dont consider an example of privatization when private companies create on top of what was created by government, I actually consider that a very good example of why government investment in ourselves is a [b]very good[/b] thing. I wouldn't hold up the US health care system as good, there are many statistics showing how bad we are for a industrialized nation. [/quote] Government can, should, and only take us only so far in many situations. Assuming the absolute worst of every example, and being, in opinion, absolutely wrong with one (the military technologies, such as the internet, being privatized is the perfect example to push further privatization), only secures this Chicken Little persona you seem to want to cling to. Regulations are a necessary aspect to any human endeavor, and anyone that does not believe is deluded. However, the bloated beauracracy that the government/corporations need to attach to it, to allow the status quo to maintain, needs to be destroyed. So, quid pro quo. Give me some examples of failures of government regulation and subsidy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Xombie' timestamp='1340383589' post='1136331'] Government can, should, and only take us only so far in many situations. Assuming the absolute worst of every example, and being, in opinion, absolutely wrong with one (the military technologies, such as the internet, being privatized is the perfect example to push further privatization), only secures this Chicken Little persona you seem to want to cling to. Regulations are a necessary aspect to any human endeavor, and anyone that does not believe is deluded. However, the bloated beauracracy that the government/corporations need to attach to it, to allow the status quo to maintain, needs to be destroyed. So, quid pro quo. Give me some [b]examples of failures of government regulation [/b]and subsidy. [/quote] TSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Xombie' timestamp='1340383589' post='1136331'] Government can, should, and only take us only so far in many situations. Assuming the absolute worst of every example, and being, in opinion, absolutely wrong with one (the military technologies, such as the internet, being privatized is the perfect example to push further privatization), only secures this Chicken Little persona you seem to want to cling to. Regulations are a necessary aspect to any human endeavor, and anyone that does not believe is deluded. However, the bloated beauracracy that the government/corporations need to attach to it, to allow the status quo to maintain, needs to be destroyed. So, quid pro quo. Give me some examples of failures of government regulation and subsidy. [/quote] I would argue that government isn't bloated because of regulations, I would argue that if it is bloated its because of fascism that tacks on unnecessary things to bills in order to satisfy the campaign donors reasons for donating. I would argue that left to it's own devices, government works very well in ensuring fair competition in the market place. Government in and of itself isn't the problem, fascism is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1340384113' post='1136334'] TSA [/quote] Agreed. Sadly, in a country where Israeli style profiling would lead to an avalanche of law suits, it may be the best of a sad litter of options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1340384113' post='1136334'] TSA [/quote] I would argue this falls more in line with the social libertarianism and civil rights that I am not against. Unless of course were talking about those scanners, but I would also argue that's facism seeing as chertoff is profiting from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1340385054' post='1136336'] I would argue that government isn't bloated because of regulations, I would argue that if it is bloated its because of fascism that tacks on unnecessary things to bills in order to satisfy the campaign donors reasons for donating. I would argue that left to it's own devices, government works very well in ensuring fair competition in the market place. Government in and of itself isn't the problem, fascism is. [/quote] Wow. Couldn't even question yourself to actually answer my challenge, as I answered yours. If you can not see where your stances could possibly be wrong, or how your beliefs could be abused, then there is no talking to you. You are a bigot, in this sense. Just shows you can't reason with hyperbole and blind bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Xombie' timestamp='1340385390' post='1136339'] Wow. Couldn't even question yourself to actually answer my challenge, as I answered yours. If you can not see where your stances could possibly be wrong, or how your beliefs could be abused, then there is no talking to you. You are a bigot, in this sense. Just shows you can't reason with hyperbole and blind bias. [/quote] Apparently I have to be direct. I dont see failures of government regulation or subsidies that arent directly fascism. But hey I guess if that makes me a bigot, it's quid pro quo, to me thinking anarchocapitilists and their defenders are either sheep or worse, evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1340386078' post='1136342'] Apparently I have to be direct. I dont see failures of government regulation or subsidies that arent directly fascism. But hey I guess if that makes me a bigot, it's quid pro quo, to me thinking anarchocapitilists and their defenders are either sheep or worse, evil. [/quote] No, you need to open your eyes as half as much as you bleat for others to open theirs. And, yes, along with the blind assumptions of entire groups of people, the fearful, unquestioning clingling to your supposed moral high ground, and the near constant spewing of insulting diatribe, that does make you a bigot. Enjoy nodding at the parrots in this so called forum, as they will be the only people left in this area of the site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Xombie' timestamp='1340387113' post='1136346'] No, you need to open your eyes as half as much as you bleat for others to open theirs. And, yes, along with the blind assumptions of entire groups of people, the fearful, unquestioning clingling to your supposed moral high ground, and the near constant spewing of insulting diatribe, that does make you a bigot. Enjoy nodding at the parrots in this so called forum, as they will be the only people left in this area of the site. [/quote] So much for debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalBacker Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1340310441' post='1136180'] I know I no longer attempt debate around here anymore for precisely this reason. Too many insults and defamation going on in the midst of them that ruins it. I pretty much just say my piece and leave it at that now. [/quote] I rarely even say my peace anymore. Just read and shake my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='BengalBacker' timestamp='1340389666' post='1136356'] I rarely even say my peace anymore. Just read and shake my head. [/quote] See I feel the same way when people defend this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='BengalBacker' timestamp='1340389666' post='1136356'] I rarely even say my peace anymore. Just read and shake my head. [/quote] This makes me sad.. We don't agree much on politics.. But I always found discussions with you engaging and honest. I don't need people to agree with what I think. Just don't judge me a moron or worse for thinking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1340396041' post='1136371'] This makes me sad.. We don't agree much on politics.. But I always found discussions with you engaging and honest. I don't need people to agree with what I think. Just don't judge me a moron or worse for thinking it. [/quote] and if your opinions fly in the face of history and data and yet you still keep those opinions what should one think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1340397510' post='1136373'] and if your opinions fly in the face of history and data and yet you still keep those opinions what should one think? [/quote] If the opposing argument is that empty and without merit, you shouldn't have to worry about denegrating the person making it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1340406815' post='1136387'] If the opposing argument is that empty and without merit, you shouldn't have to worry about denegrating the person making it.. [/quote] And see I'm not quite sure how else best to describe folks who follow these ideals without understanding their lack of merit except to call them sheep or those that believe in it as evil. I think I've been pretty clear in the difference between anarchocapitialism and fasicisim and the notion that I have no ill will for social libertiatianism and civil rights. What language would you think to better describe the naieve or evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 ^ I would suggest you start by not calling anyone you disagree with "naive" and/or "evil". With that as your starting point it's clear that you're not interested in a respectful discussion so much as beating your own chest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 [quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1340409431' post='1136399'] ^ I would suggest you start by not calling anyone you disagree with "naive" and/or "evil". With that as your starting point it's clear that you're not interested in a respectful discussion so much as beating your own chest. [/quote] Of all the people... But ill ignore the who and ask again, if I think that they are that what should I call them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 You should probably forego the name-calling entirely if you expect them to pay attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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