Chargers Game Recap/Analysis

[bearcat7777]

 

 

I really like this play design against 2 high safeties.  Green got rocked on the play, but only because he had to leap for the throw.  If Dalton makes a good throw, the safety is no threat to AJ.  

 

All 4 guys are open on this play.

 

Totally agree with you not the author.  Dalton made the correct read, just a horrible throw.

 

Makes me sick seeing how open Hawkins was on that play.

 

Hawkins is running toward the sideline.  In the picture Hawkins is 12 yards from the sideline. A throw to him and he would now be 5 - 6 yards from out of bounds. SD cornerback is looking into the backfield, as soon as Dalton throws to Hawkins he would close the gap to 5 - 6 yards with Hawkins momentum going toward the sideline.  I just don't even think Hawkins would make a first down in this scenario.

 

So to summarize Dalton made the correct read just a horrible throw.

[mullichicken25]

 

 

I really like this play design against 2 high safeties.  Green got rocked on the play, but only because he had to leap for the throw.  If Dalton makes a good throw, the safety is no threat to AJ.  

 

All 4 guys are open on this play.

I'm not sure I agree

 

The way I see it, Green was getting lit the fuck up regardless of where that ball was thrown. It looked to me that the safety was going to be on him the second he made contact with the ball, whether it was in the air or on the ground. Maybe he could have braced for the hit a little better, but i even doubt that.

 

I think that ball needed to be thrown earlier, more than it needed to be thrown lower. I dont think Andy anticipated the LB dropping back into coverage the way he did with the CB coming down low cutting off Gresham. I'm reasonably sure they thought they'd have two deep over AJ with the LB coming from the middle to cover the TE opening a giant throwing lane to Green. Instead, the LB stayed in the middle while the corner shifted down to the line of scrimage and the safetys shifted over, and therefore it took another second for AJ to get open. By that time, the free Safety was all over AJ's route and licking his chops as he watched Andy throw it.

 

Also, to those complaining about him not throwing to Hawkins on that play. You're out of your face if you think he had enough time to look at the AJ/Gresham coverage and then look back accross the field before getting hit. The only shot Hawkins ever had of seeing that ball on that play is if Andy saw something in the coverage that made him look to the other side first.

[Bengals1181]

I'm not sure I agree

 

The way I see it, Green was getting lit the fuck up regardless of where that ball was thrown. It looked to me that the safety was going to be on him the second he made contact with the ball, whether it was in the air or on the ground. Maybe he could have braced for the hit a little better, but i even doubt that.

 

I think that ball needed to be thrown earlier, more than it needed to be thrown lower. I dont think Andy anticipated the LB dropping back into coverage the way he did with the CB coming down low cutting off Gresham. I'm reasonably sure they thought they'd have two deep over AJ with the LB coming from the middle to cover the TE opening a giant throwing lane to Green. Instead, the LB stayed in the middle while the corner shifted down to the line of scrimage and the safetys shifted over, and therefore it took another second for AJ to get open. By that time, the free Safety was all over AJ's route and licking his chops as he watched Andy throw it.

 

Also, to those complaining about him not throwing to Hawkins on that play. You're out of your face if you think he had enough time to look at the AJ/Gresham coverage and then look back accross the field before getting hit. The only shot Hawkins ever had of seeing that ball on that play is if Andy saw something in the coverage that made him look to the other side first.

 

 

I don't see how you can think that.  The safety that hits him is 9yds away in the picture and Dalton is already in his throwing motion.  The bad throw very much was the reason for the hit IMO.

[Orange 'n Black]

 

 

I don't see how you can think that.  The safety that hits him is 9yds away in the picture and Dalton is already in his throwing motion.  The bad throw very much was the reason for the hit IMO.

 

Yep. If the ball is placed in the numbers AJ can tuck it and take a much cleaner hit. Going up like that exposes his entire midsection to getting destroyed. 

[mullichicken25]

 

 

I don't see how you can think that.  The safety that hits him is 9yds away in the picture and Dalton is already in his throwing motion.  The bad throw very much was the reason for the hit IMO.

watching the replay it doesn't look like he slows down much or diverts dramatically from his route.

 

Its physics...the vertical component of the trajectory is irrelevant here since it didn't significant bearing on the motion relative to the playing field. In the two dimensions of the football field the three bodies of intrest (AJ, ball, and Safety) are all on a collision course given the start time and velocity of the throw.

 

Even if Andy hit's AJ right in the mits he still gets rocked a split second later. Maybe he has better chance of holding onto the ball...but his ass is still getting planted into the turf.

 

But If Andy threw it earlier, or at 10x the velocity, AJ might have avoided the hit.

[Bengals1181]

 

Yep. If the ball is placed in the numbers AJ can tuck it and take a much cleaner hit. Going up like that exposes his entire midsection to getting destroyed. 

 

 

yea I think its important to note that not only was the throw high, but it was also behind Green.  Had he led him, I wouldn't have been shocked to see Green split the safeties and score.

[mullichicken25]

 

Yep. If the ball is placed in the numbers AJ can tuck it and take a much cleaner hit. Going up like that exposes his entire midsection to getting destroyed. 

I'm not arguing that the high throw increased the chance of injury or ugliness of the hit, im arguing the contention that AJ could have avoided the hit all together with a more accurate pass

[Bengals1181]

I'm not arguing that the high throw increased the chance of injury or ugliness of the hit, im arguing the contention that AJ could have avoided the hit all together with a more accurate pass

 

 

but he would have.  AJ Slows down to try and catch it.  If he gets it in stride, he's never touched.

 

 

It should have been just inside the hashes on this picture.  AJ has already started slowing down in this pic.

 

 

 

[mullichicken25]

 

 

but he would have.  AJ Slows down to try and catch it.  If he gets it in stride, he's never touched.

 

 

It should have been just inside the hashes on this picture.  AJ has already started slowing down in this pic.

 

 

I think you're over estimating how much he slowed down, and under estimating how quickly the safety closed in

[bengaled]

 

I dont know, in the the beginning of the year I wondered how we would get the ball to all of the weapons. And I would consider significant weapons as being a part of a system to take over games offensively, not just put up some good individual stats in a few great games and a bunch of less than mediocre games. Right now, I dont know if its lack of enough significant weapons, or scheme, or QB.

 

At this point, I dont know if its putting the horse before the cart (with Andy and "weapons"), but here is how I see it, with a "+" being a game changer type weapon, a "-" not being what I would consider a disappointment or non-factor, and "+/-" being somewhere in between.

 

Main players besides QB:

 

+/-   Gresham: appears, disappears and will give one penalty per game usually

+     Green: enough said

-      Eifert: Thought he would be awesome as a safety valve. appears, disappears- Andys fault or his?

-      Sanu: virtually non-existant

+/-   Jones- except for a couple games, virtually non-existant.

+/-   Green-Ellis- Steady but nothing special

+     Bernard- Pretty amazing when he is thrown to/has a hole, but not thrown to enough (Andys fault? Grudens fault?

 

0      Hawkins- just getting back into the swing of things

 

I consider two real weapons, and a bunch of average players that occasionally have good games.

 

 

i'd argue right off the bat about AJ green, even though you have that as a plus. i think not he, but the way we utilize him, makes him also a +-. i say that because of this. i said preseason, against arguments i might add, that for this offense to work correctly AJ's numbers would have to go down. well, it doesn't appear that he's that far off the pace of his numbers from other seasons, and this offense is having the problems i was concerned about if that prevailed. we need to spread the damned ball around more. marvin made an off the cuff comment to a reporter after the SD game about "there not being enough balls to go around" concerning the TE's lack of touches. i think the world of Coach, but i'd have to 2nd guess him here (not that i put too much stock in what he says to reporters). in a nutshell....AJ's touches and yards need to go down and the ball needs to be spread around more. gruden said yesterday that tyler eifert's the most underutlized player on this team, and that he had expected (preseason) for tyler to have 80 catches by now. he only has 32. that's on gruden not game planning correctly, or carrying out that game plan. i'd call that prediction (80 catches by now) a bit on the heavy side, not that eifert couldn't handle it, but that too would not be spreading the ball around correctly. we're at our best when all our receivers are involved along with a healthy dose of the running game. that's what we need for dalton to perform to the best of his abilities, and that's how we need to evolve to to get to the championship game. 

[alleycat]

My two cents after just watching the recording: he could have caught it but he would have had to crumple to the ground right away to avoid taking the hit.

[Oldcat]

 

 

i'd argue right off the bat about AJ green, even though you have that as a plus. i think not he, but the way we utilize him, makes him also a +-. i say that because of this. i said preseason, against arguments i might add, that for this offense to work correctly AJ's numbers would have to go down. well, it doesn't appear that he's that far off the pace of his numbers from other seasons, and this offense is having the problems i was concerned about if that prevailed. we need to spread the damned ball around more. marvin made an off the cuff comment to a reporter after the SD game about "there not being enough balls to go around" concerning the TE's lack of touches. i think the world of Coach, but i'd have to 2nd guess him here (not that i put too much stock in what he says to reporters). in a nutshell....AJ's touches and yards need to go down and the ball needs to be spread around more. gruden said yesterday that tyler eifert's the most underutlized player on this team, and that he had expected (preseason) for tyler to have 80 catches by now. he only has 32. that's on gruden not game planning correctly, or carrying out that game plan. i'd call that prediction (80 catches by now) a bit on the heavy side, not that eifert couldn't handle it, but that too would not be spreading the ball around correctly. we're at our best when all our receivers are involved along with a healthy dose of the running game. that's what we need for dalton to perform to the best of his abilities, and that's how we need to evolve to to get to the championship game. 

 

I think it his touches, but when and how they happen.  We seem to be so concerned early on to get Green some simple little pattern that CBs like Haden are teeing off and getting picks.  I'd rather they just sent Green on some deep "routes" to scare the CB into backpedaling without any intention of throwing to him on the first few tries.  Hit someone underneath to keep the drive alive.  Then once the CB is scared when he sees Green beat him by 10 yards, hit an easy completion underneath a few times.

[Phatcat]

 

I think it his touches, but when and how they happen.  We seem to be so concerned early on to get Green some simple little pattern that CBs like Haden are teeing off and getting picks.  I'd rather they just sent Green on some deep "routes" to scare the CB into backpedaling without any intention of throwing to him on the first few tries.  Hit someone underneath to keep the drive alive.  Then once the CB is scared when he sees Green beat him by 10 yards, hit an easy completion underneath a few times.

 

I would rather Gruden do some things to get Dalton in a groove or "settled" (good word alley) than worrying about Green first.  

[T-Dub]

 

I would rather Gruden do some things to get Dalton in a groove or "settled" (good word alley) than worrying about Green first.  

 

I think that "worrying about Green" is a big part of what's making Dalton unsettled.

[Inigo Montoya]

I think you're over estimating how much he slowed down, and under estimating how quickly the safety closed in

I agree with you on this one. That safety is hitting AJ even with a better throw. As it was, the bad throw nearly cost AJ a couple of broken ribs and we were lucky it didn't end up worse.

[Phatcat]

 

I think that "worrying about Green" is a big part of what's making Dalton unsettled.

good point.  Nonetheless get Andy settled into the game.  He needs to be an efficient game manager.  Not Brett Favre.   

[JBandJoeyV]

 

I would rather Gruden do some things to get Dalton in a groove or "settled" (good word alley) than worrying about Green first.  

 

 

 

I think Gruden tends to overreact to certain things. IE in 2012, we as fans complained that we werent using Gresh enough. Then in the playoff game he uses Gresh as his main target, and we complain that he didnt thow to AJ at all (both valid though). So then in 2013 a lot of times he is focused on getting the ball to AJ because theres no way he can make that mistake again of not using AJ at all for a whole half.

 

Maybe thats just me, but thats what ive seen over the last year or so. He needs to stop worrying about all that other BS, and focus more on just getting the ball spread around and helping dalton find the mismatches and focusing on them. I dont care how many balls AJ, Gresh, Eifert, Gio, etc get. I care about finding the open guy and getting them the ball and allowing our variety of play makers to make plays.

 

 

And before the anti dalton guys come, Im not saying all this is on Gruden. A lot is on AD as well. But between the two of them they need to not focus so much on getting certain players the ball and focus more on spreading the ball around, finding mismatches, and taking advantage of those. 

[Squirrlnutz]

 

I think that "worrying about Green" is a big part of what's making Dalton unsettled.

 

Agreed.

 

The scientist in me would be interested to see how different (consistent?) Dalton would be without AJ for an extended period of time.  I think we'd be surprised as, IMO, a large percentage of our mistakes are made because Dalton and Gruden feel obligated to get AJ  7-120-1 every game.  Though the fan in me hopes AJ never misses a game.  I do think our offense will function best when Dalton is spreading the ball around, treating AJ as 1 of 5, not 1 and 4 others.  

 

I'd much rather AD be feeding our TEs and run game, then hit AJ deep early in the second half because the D isn't looking, than throw the ball up to him 4 times in the first half on jump balls/close man coverage because "he's AJ Green."  Still seems like we are searching for our "bread and butter" that allows the entire offense to settle into games early and develop a ryhthm that we can work new wrinkles out of.  I'm hopeful the incoming cold weather, OL re-shuffling, and potential Pressely return will have us commit to the run and hit our stride for the playoffs.

[Khatmandude]

I really think that scripting the first 10 or so plays for Dalton is a good idea.  Most of these plays should be quick throws to WR right off the snap, let them get YAC....each and every WR on this team is above avg in 1 on 1 YAC situations.  Even Mo Sanu who lacks the upper tier speed.   Easy completions, you gain 2 or 3 yds at worse.....an extension of the run game.   With AJ or Hawkins, you just may bust one for a score.   Anytime the DB is 5 yds or more back....do it.   Every time.   Then the slants become easier, at times pump fake when the DB tries to anticipate that play, big gain.   

 

Those kinds of throws....short, rhythm forming throws.   They give you a feel for things.  And they're pretty effective. 

[Phatcat]

 

Agreed.

 

The scientist in me would be interested to see how different (consistent?) Dalton would be without AJ for an extended period of time.  I think we'd be surprised as, IMO, a large percentage of our mistakes are made because Dalton and Gruden feel obligated to get AJ  7-120-1 every game.  Though the fan in me hopes AJ never misses a game.  I do think our offense will function best when Dalton is spreading the ball around, treating AJ as 1 of 5, not 1 and 4 others.  

 

I'd much rather AD be feeding our TEs and run game, then hit AJ deep early in the second half because the D isn't looking, than throw the ball up to him 4 times in the first half on jump balls/close man coverage because "he's AJ Green."  Still seems like we are searching for our "bread and butter" that allows the entire offense to settle into games early and develop a ryhthm that we can work new wrinkles out of.  I'm hopeful the incoming cold weather, OL re-shuffling, and potential Pressely return will have us commit to the run and hit our stride for the playoffs.

good post....

[JBandJoeyV]

I really think that scripting the first 10 or so plays for Dalton is a good idea.  Most of these plays should be quick throws to WR right off the snap, let them get YAC....each and every WR on this team is above avg in 1 on 1 YAC situations.  Even Mo Sanu who lacks the upper tier speed.   Easy completions, you gain 2 or 3 yds at worse.....an extension of the run game.   With AJ or Hawkins, you just may bust one for a score.   Anytime the DB is 5 yds or more back....do it.   Every time.   Then the slants become easier, at times pump fake when the DB tries to anticipate that play, big gain.   

 

Those kinds of throws....short, rhythm forming throws.   They give you a feel for things.  And they're pretty effective. 

 

I dont think thats a bad idea at all...although I wouldnt be against taking a deep shot early if they feel there is an opening. 

 

While the INT against SD was really bad, if they work the short passing game earlier, chances are weddle wouldnt have been sitting so deep on that pass. And even still, a better pass, Id take AJ on a jump ball 1 on 1 or even sometimes 1 on 2 fairly often.

But the main point of your post I agree with. Let AD get in a rhythm early.

[Khatmandude]

 

I dont think thats a bad idea at all...although I wouldnt be against taking a deep shot early if they feel there is an opening. 

 

While the INT against SD was really bad, if they work the short passing game earlier, chances are weddle wouldnt have been sitting so deep on that pass. And even still, a better pass, Id take AJ on a jump ball 1 on 1 or even sometimes 1 on 2 fairly often.

But the main point of your post I agree with. Let AD get in a rhythm early.

 

Yeah, allow the situation to be fluid still.....dont HAVE to follow the scripted plays if you see something you like.  Dalton knows the offense, there shouldn't be anything keeping them from taking advantage of a perceived mismatch. 

[Bengals1181]

I really think that scripting the first 10 or so plays for Dalton is a good idea.  Most of these plays should be quick throws to WR right off the snap, let them get YAC....each and every WR on this team is above avg in 1 on 1 YAC situations.  Even Mo Sanu who lacks the upper tier speed.   Easy completions, you gain 2 or 3 yds at worse.....an extension of the run game.   With AJ or Hawkins, you just may bust one for a score.   Anytime the DB is 5 yds or more back....do it.   Every time.   Then the slants become easier, at times pump fake when the DB tries to anticipate that play, big gain.   
 
Those kinds of throws....short, rhythm forming throws.   They give you a feel for things.  And they're pretty effective.

I believe they still do script the first 15-20 plays, but I do agree on the kind of plays they should be scripting.


And in general, any time during the game a DB is playing off coverage on first or second down, I'm firing a quick pass down the line, and saying thanks for the free 5yds.

And when they decide to try and stop it, I'm calling an out an up.

[Khatmandude]

I believe they still do script the first 15-20 plays, but I do agree on the kind of plays they should be scripting.


And in general, any time during the game a DB is playing off coverage on first or second down, I'm firing a quick pass down the line, and saying thanks for the free 5yds.

And when they decide to try and stop it, I'm calling an out an up.

 

Yep, every time I'd do it.   AJ or Hawkins could break one of those.   Maybe Jones too. 

[Bengals1181]

 

Yep, every time I'd do it.   AJ or Hawkins could break one of those.   Maybe Jones too. 

 

 

heck even Sanu tends to get 5-6yds out of them.