alleycat Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Yeah, another way to kill two positions with one player is get a better return man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 That's a little rich for a 28 yr old WR who relies on quicks. I'd like him back, but at the same time every snap he's on the field, is a snap jones or Eifert is off the field. It is a LOT rich. They probably could have gotten him for about the tender price and a 4 year deal. Bidding against themselves again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 We had the option of stopping him from signing that deal by tendering at 2.2M. Again the ONLY way this makes sense is if the Bengals believe he is worth at least 1.4M but definitely not 2.2M. Very unlikely that they woudl put that tight of a range on a guy, especially when you consider that is a one year deal not a yearly average of a long term deal. If they are losing players that they actually want to keep (which we do because we tendered him at all) over 800k we are in very very bad shape. No other explanation is based on any logic whatsoever. They tried to play the market and get a lowball deal with him and lost. It won't ruin our season or anything close but we gambled on a player we wanted to keep....for 800k. Which is what everyone has been telling you ever since you started this stuff. YES, that is what the team thinks. NO, they are not hugely concerned about losing him. Hopefully we will pass less. Gio and the TEs will get proportionally more catches. Sanu and Sanzenbacher and Hamilton will get more shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coup000 Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 or, they didn't have longterm plans for a 28yr old slot WR. As Cincyjungle surmised, the fact that they didn't give him a 2nd round tender shows they were comfortable in letting him go and using someone like Sanu. I know why you're all pissy lately, but its gone past extreme. And again, what do you feel Hawkins is worth? Long term plans are irrelevant. They tendered him, they clearly wanted him on the team this year. I think Hawkins is probably worth $2M a year. But my issue is that they went cheap on the tender. And it hurt the team. There is really no arguing that. I understand they didn't see him as a huge piece of the offense, but $2.2M isn't a huge piece of the cap. Hurting your team, even if just a little, over 800k in today's NFL is very bad business. Even if you see him as worth 1.4M you dont dump him over 800k. Just like if you don't think MJ is worth 10M but you can ensure you keep him for that # you do it. The impact and dollars match up pretty well actually. Last years team (that managed to lose a home playoff game to a mediocre Chargers team)-minus MJ, Collins and Hawk (most likely). Boling, Atkins and Hall coming off major injuries. Newman and Pacman a year older. Whitworth having nagging injuries every year. Are improvements in Gio, MJones, Z, Eifert, Dalton, Sanu, Pollak at C....enough to not only offset the negatives but to actually improve enough to win a playoff game? I'm sure they'll add some mid level guys, some of which will probably end up looking like very good bargains and they'll probably add some solid draft picks. Will that be enough? I guess this is the first year where I don't see a clear up arrow since the horrible 2010 year (even then I had high expectations going into the year). And it doesn't appear to me that the front office cares that they are getting worse while sitting on $20M of cap space. Does managing the cap well and keeping Andy, AJ, Atkins and Dunlap mean anything at all if they never get out of the first round of the playoffs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 No,Fucking Cleveland thinks he was worth more that that, and if you think they have a proven group of personnel guys there,I have some Atlantic Beach Front property you might be interested in Phoenix. It's rare, however, so you're probably going to need to overpay! And Cleveland might even be right.. Value to one team is not = value to another. Given that outside a one year wonder Gordon the Browns have jack at WR, having another option might be worth a lot more to them than to another team stocked with talent there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coup000 Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Which is what everyone has been telling you ever since you started this stuff. YES, that is what the team thinks. NO, they are not hugely concerned about losing him. Hopefully we will pass less. Gio and the TEs will get proportionally more catches. Sanu and Sanzenbacher and Hamilton will get more shots. Very doubtful, much more likely they gambled hoping to be able to get a cheaper long term deal and missed the market badly. Not to mention, if they had accurately forecasted the market at all, they could have tendered at the second round level and possibly extracted a late round pick for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Long term plans are irrelevant. They tendered him, they clearly wanted him on the team this year. I think Hawkins is probably worth $2M a year. But my issue is that they went cheap on the tender. And it hurt the team. There is really no arguing that. I understand they didn't see him as a huge piece of the offense, but $2.2M isn't a huge piece of the cap. Hurting your team, even if just a little, over 800k in today's NFL is very bad business. Even if you see him as worth 1.4M you dont dump him over 800k. Just like if you don't think MJ is worth 10M but you can ensure you keep him for that # you do it. The impact and dollars match up pretty well actually. Last years team (that managed to lose a home playoff game to a mediocre Chargers team)-minus MJ, Collins and Hawk (most likely). Boling, Atkins and Hall coming off major injuries. Newman and Pacman a year older. Whitworth having nagging injuries every year. Are improvements in Gio, MJones, Z, Eifert, Dalton, Sanu, Pollak at C....enough to not only offset the negatives but to actually improve enough to win a playoff game? I'm sure they'll add some mid level guys, some of which will probably end up looking like very good bargains and they'll probably add some solid draft picks. Will that be enough? I guess this is the first year where I don't see a clear up arrow since the horrible 2010 year (even then I had high expectations going into the year). And it doesn't appear to me that the front office cares that they are getting worse while sitting on $20M of cap space. Does managing the cap well and keeping Andy, AJ, Atkins and Dunlap mean anything at all if they never get out of the first round of the playoffs? I don't recall Hawk doing anything in the Chargers game either. Since this is why Dalton sucks, it should work for Hawk too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted March 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 @GeoffHobsonCin: http://t.co/QC4Pr4ns4M: Browns sign Hawkins as Bengals mull match (4 yrs, 12.2 5M this year), but not UFAs http://t.co/aKebw2SKoI What was the 2nd round tender offer that we decided wasn't worth paying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted March 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 We had the option of stopping him from signing that deal by tendering at 2.2M. Again the ONLY way this makes sense is if the Bengals believe he is worth at least 1.4M but definitely not 2.2M. Very unlikely that they woudl put that tight of a range on a guy, especially when you consider that is a one year deal not a yearly average of a long term deal. If they are losing players that they actually want to keep (which we do because we tendered him at all) over 800k we are in very very bad shape. No other explanation is based on any logic whatsoever. They tried to play the market and get a lowball deal with him and lost. It won't ruin our season or anything close but we gambled on a player we wanted to keep....for 800k. It as dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Follow Jason La CanforaVerified account@JasonLaCanfora Taylor Mays re-signed with the Bengals :headbang: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 What was the 2nd round tender offer that we decided wasn't worth paying? 2.2 million Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted March 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 or, they didn't have longterm plans for a 28yr old slot WR. As Cincyjungle surmised, the fact that they didn't give him a 2nd round tender shows they were comfortable in letting him go and using someone like Sanu. They were willing to pay 1.4 million for him in the short term I doubt that 2.2 is suddenly an absurd amount. The fact that they didn't give him the second round tender tells me they assumed they would match anything. Assumed incorrectly. If they didn't want him why tender him at all? You weren't going to get anything in return Had we tendered him we would have another great WR. We are down two very nice pieces to the team because we have mis played free agency so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted March 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Long term plans are irrelevant. They tendered him, they clearly wanted him on the team this year. I think Hawkins is probably worth $2M a year. But my issue is that they went cheap on the tender. And it hurt the team. There is really no arguing that. I understand they didn't see him as a huge piece of the offense, but $2.2M isn't a huge piece of the cap. Hurting your team, even if just a little, over 800k in today's NFL is very bad business. Even if you see him as worth 1.4M you dont dump him over 800k. Just like if you don't think MJ is worth 10M but you can ensure you keep him for that # you do it. The impact and dollars match up pretty well actually. Last years team (that managed to lose a home playoff game to a mediocre Chargers team)-minus MJ, Collins and Hawk (most likely). Boling, Atkins and Hall coming off major injuries. Newman and Pacman a year older. Whitworth having nagging injuries every year. Are improvements in Gio, MJones, Z, Eifert, Dalton, Sanu, Pollak at C....enough to not only offset the negatives but to actually improve enough to win a playoff game? I'm sure they'll add some mid level guys, some of which will probably end up looking like very good bargains and they'll probably add some solid draft picks. Will that be enough? I guess this is the first year where I don't see a clear up arrow since the horrible 2010 year (even then I had high expectations going into the year). And it doesn't appear to me that the front office cares that they are getting worse while sitting on $20M of cap space. Does managing the cap well and keeping Andy, AJ, Atkins and Dunlap mean anything at all if they never get out of the first round of the playoffs? Nailed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 They were willing to pay 1.4 million for him in the short term I doubt that 2.2 is suddenly an absurd amount. The fact that they didn't give him the second round tender tells me they assumed they would match anything. Assumed incorrectly. If they didn't want him why tender him at all? You weren't going to get anything in return Had we tendered him we would have another great WR. We are down two very nice pieces to the team because we have mis played free agency so far. Why he heck would you assume anything like that? There isn't any possible way you could think that Hawk is so valuable to them that the team would match any contract. Heck, they might not have matched a 4 year deal at 1,4 per year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigo Montoya Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 I don't see Hawkins as being worth that contract. Maybe it was a mistake tendering him at the level they did and not getting anything in return if they choose not to match his offer sheet. Bottom line, this frees up a little money from the "pad" and I do not envision the offense missing Hawkins much if at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted March 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Why he heck would you assume anything like that? There isn't any possible way you could think that Hawk is so valuable to them that the team would match any contract. Heck, they might not have matched a 4 year deal at 1,4 per year. I think they assumed he would get a matchable contract. This is not one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 They were willing to pay 1.4 million for him in the short term I doubt that 2.2 is suddenly an absurd amount. The fact that they didn't give him the second round tender tells me they assumed they would match anything. Assumed incorrectly. If they didn't want him why tender him at all? You weren't going to get anything in return Had we tendered him we would have another great WR. We are down two very nice pieces to the team because we have mis played free agency so far. I dont want to get in a back and forth so I will just make one comment. Do you think its possible that there is more to it than we we are privy to? What are the chances that Duke tobin/marvin lewis and gang fucked something up as bad as you make it seem? Hell maybe they just knew hawkins wasnt part of our long term plan and realized this was his chance to actually make some money. Instead of taking away that opportunity from him by tendering him at a 2nd round level (which I doubt the browns would give up a 2nd rounder for him) and costing him the chance at a 15M contract, they realized it was better for him to allow him to test the waters and see if he can get more than we are willing to pay him. Now you can argue thats not in our best interest, just his. But that is the way the bengals do business. They treat people the right way. I think they hope that will help them in the long run. The more and more word gets spread around that the bengals treat their players the right way, the better it helps them attract FAs, keep FAs, etc. I dont know if that is the reason we didnt tender Hawk higher, but my main point is just cause something appears to be dumb to you doenst necessarily mean it is. There is probably a lot more going on that we know of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueridge Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Nailed it.Whining all over this board for days now. Get a grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 I think they assumed he would get a matchable contract. This is not one. And if they didn't get a matchable one, they would say goodbye to Hawk with thanks. As they will do. Because he was always a luxury on our team and not a necessity. If they like that kind of player, sign one in FA or draft one in round 5 or so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Long term plans are irrelevant. They tendered him, they clearly wanted him on the team this year. I think Hawkins is probably worth $2M a year. But my issue is that they went cheap on the tender. And it hurt the team. There is really no arguing that. I understand they didn't see him as a huge piece of the offense, but $2.2M isn't a huge piece of the cap. Hurting your team, even if just a little, over 800k in today's NFL is very bad business. Even if you see him as worth 1.4M you dont dump him over 800k. Just like if you don't think MJ is worth 10M but you can ensure you keep him for that # you do it. The impact and dollars match up pretty well actually. Last years team (that managed to lose a home playoff game to a mediocre Chargers team)-minus MJ, Collins and Hawk (most likely). Boling, Atkins and Hall coming off major injuries. Newman and Pacman a year older. Whitworth having nagging injuries every year. Are improvements in Gio, MJones, Z, Eifert, Dalton, Sanu, Pollak at C....enough to not only offset the negatives but to actually improve enough to win a playoff game? I'm sure they'll add some mid level guys, some of which will probably end up looking like very good bargains and they'll probably add some solid draft picks. Will that be enough? I guess this is the first year where I don't see a clear up arrow since the horrible 2010 year (even then I had high expectations going into the year). And it doesn't appear to me that the front office cares that they are getting worse while sitting on $20M of cap space. Does managing the cap well and keeping Andy, AJ, Atkins and Dunlap mean anything at all if they never get out of the first round of the playoffs? Seriously its day 1 of FA. Same shit every single year and most people at the end of the day are happy with what we do in the offseason, at least the last few years. If we end up losing those guys, dont sign any outside FAs, and "just sit on the 20 mil" of cap space, then start complaining. Right now it just looks silly as it has for many other people in the past few years that do the exact same thing you and MW are doing. Give it time, thats the bengals way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted March 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 And if they didn't get a matchable one, they would say goodbye to Hawk with thanks. As they will do. Because he was always a luxury on our team and not a necessity. If they like that kind of player, sign one in FA or draft one in round 5 or so He had a skillset no one else had on the team and we could have had him or a 2nd round pick for 800K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted March 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Seriously its day 1 of FA. Same shit every single year and most people at the end of the day are happy with what we do in the offseason, at least the last few years. If we end up losing those guys, dont sign any outside FAs, and "just sit on the 20 mil" of cap space, then start complaining. Right now it just looks silly as it has for many other people in the past few years that do the exact same thing you and MW are doing. Give it time, thats the bengals way. We don't typically lose this many assets for nothing on day one. I can't think of a time that we lost our starting LT and DE, 2 marquee positions on day one. I agree that it may turn around but it is beyond frustrating to lost 2 pieces like MJ and Hawkins for nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 He had a skillset no one else had on the team and we could have had him or a 2nd round pick for 800K. Which the team didn't value at 800K or a second round pick. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted March 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 I dont know if that is the reason we didnt tender Hawk higher, but my main point is just cause something appears to be dumb to you doenst necessarily mean it is. There is probably a lot more going on that we know of. Its a possibility but if there isn't then it seems pretty dumb huh? Which the team didn't value at 800K or a second round pick. End of story. Its the whole story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coup000 Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Seriously its day 1 of FA. Same shit every single year and most people at the end of the day are happy with what we do in the offseason, at least the last few years. If we end up losing those guys, dont sign any outside FAs, and "just sit on the 20 mil" of cap space, then start complaining. Right now it just looks silly as it has for many other people in the past few years that do the exact same thing you and MW are doing. Give it time, thats the bengals way. Who have we lost in the past 2 years that we really wanted to keep? People have bitched about us not signing a big name (I don't believe that has been me in the past) but this is entirely different. We usually stand pat, we got appreciably worse today. Which the team didn't value at 800K or a second round pick. End of story. Or they went cheap and fucked up. More likely the actual story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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