Ben Stein hates Darwin

[xamination]

[url="http://www.expelledthemovie.com/"]http://www.expelledthemovie.com/[/url]

Ben, I used to love ya man...

[Jamie_B]

Hell yes

Im so glad this is being addressed.

He is not wrong there is a whole side of it that treats darwinism as a religion as well, no competitive thoughts are allowed.

I will see this without a doubt.

[Nati Ice]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='532057' date='Aug 22 2007, 10:48 PM']Hell yes

Im so glad this is being addressed.

He is not wrong there is a whole side of it that treats darwinism as a religion as well, no competitive thoughts are allowed.

I will see this without a doubt.[/quote]
while i dont doubt your point, its not like the opposition is full of intelligently thought out rational thoughts. for example; scientific law should not be opposed with the book of genesis.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Nati Ice' post='532072' date='Aug 22 2007, 11:08 PM']while i dont doubt your point, its not like the opposition is full of intelligently thought out rational thoughts. for example; scientific law should not be opposed with the book of genesis.[/quote]


dont disagree, but to get some debate about it is a good thing.

ID doesnt hold to the notion that you should use any religous text, there are researchers in the ID community that are agnostic.

[SINcinnati513]

[quote name='Nati Ice' post='532072' date='Aug 22 2007, 11:08 PM']while i dont doubt your point, its not like the opposition is full of intelligently thought out rational thoughts. for example; scientific law should not be opposed with the book of genesis.[/quote]


You're dead on. This guy at work argues with me everyday and tells me that the world is 6,000 years old. This girl that is a Jehovah's Witness laughs in my face because I read books and believe in science. To her, all science is wrong. But I guess you have no room for reason when you've been brainwashed to not only believe but to actually think you have a personal relationship with a creator.

To argue ID, you must use science and reason. And I'm not talking about some AIG bullshit or the Creation Museum. Some people believe that intelligent design and science can coexist. But every person I've known to believe in god and evolution solely believe in the god part due to the fear of burning in hell.

It's funny to see a person of faith feel discriminated against and told to shut up as shown in the movie trailer. When in reality it's the atheists who are mistreated.




Who designed the intelligent designer?

[Lawman]

[quote]Who designed the intelligent designer?[/quote]

[i]Your thinking is aligned towards a linear time-line. We get older everyday; God exist outside of that time-line and does not age.[/i]

[Homer_Rice]

How is this bifurcation any different (in general) from C.P Snow's Two Cultures thesis? SINcinnati is right, and I'd go even further: you need science and Reason to have a religion/theology that is not a cult.

And yes, Lawman, while the Godhead resides [i]sub specie aeternitatis[/i], so can individual humans, at least for moments. It just takes some work and practice. (And Reason.)

[|BlackJesus|]

[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]3 things ...


1. I met Ben Stein in Las Vegas 5 years ago ... and actually got to have a conversation and picture with him. To me the appeal came from Ferris Bueller and not the fact he is a right wing toadie chode.


2. His supposed intellect comes from his voice and dry demeanor - not the fact that he is actually intelligent on anything that matters. (This was confirmed in personal conversation to me when he said we needed "Another Reagan"


3. [img]http://deseretnews.com/photos/1818688.jpg[/img]

[/b][/size][/font]

[xamination]

If Stein can show that Creationism is really a sound scientific theory, all the more power to him.


I can't kid myself - he can't and won't.

[Lawman]

[quote]But every person I've known to believe in god and evolution [b]solely believe in the god part due to the fear of burning in hell.[/b][/quote]

[i]Yes, that the could be the consequenses of our actions/in-actions. But, the real reason we should believe in God is to learn how to be like him. Meaning how we should treat each other on a day-to-day basis. Treating each other as we would like to be treated.

Science allows us to study and understand the nature of the way things are in our universe, on our planet and even ourselves. Science shapes our lives on a daily basis. Before science came along to explain to us the unknown, man looked to god/gods for answers. Science offers an intellectually justifiable reason to deny God's sovereignty and Evolution is a good example of that.

For a christian, science is not God's replacement. God created the principles which science discovers.

(my personnel fascination in science dwelves on both [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Numerology"]biblical numerology[/url] andnon-biblical numerology.)

So, does science and the bible disagree? Look at the following passages and decide:[/i]

[color="#000080"]"He sits enthroned above the [b]circle of the earth[/b], and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in" (Isaiah 40:22). [/color]

"[color="#000080"]He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; [b]he suspends the earth over nothing[/b]" (Job 26:7). [/color]

[color="#000080"]"The [b]valleys of the sea [/b]were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils" (2 Samuel 22:16). [/color]

[color="#000080"]"O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!...When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,...You made him [man] ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet...the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that [b]swim the paths of the seas[/b] (Ocean Currents)" (Psalm 8:1,3,6,8). [/color]

[i]My personnel favorite on"Entropy and God"[/i]

[color="#000080"]"In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. [b]They will perish, but you remain[/b]; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded" (Psalm 102:25-26). [/color]

[xamination]

[quote name='Lawman' post='532509' date='Aug 23 2007, 06:11 PM']Science allows us to study and understand the nature of the way things are in our universe, on our planet and even ourselves. Science shapes our lives on a daily basis. Before science came along to explain to us the unknown, man looked to god/gods for answers. Science offers an intellectually justifiable reason to deny God's sovereignty and Evolution is a good example of that.[/quote]

Evolution is simply the logical theory explaining how animals can change drastically over long periods of time. It has NOTHING to do with God.
However, if you wish to make a literal case of the Bible, then you are going to run into some problems - but not just from evolution. A literal interpretation of the Bible will ultimately defeat itself.

[Lawman]

[quote name='xamination' post='532520' date='Aug 23 2007, 06:33 PM']Evolution is simply the logical theory explaining how animals can change drastically over long periods of time. It has NOTHING to do with God.
However, if you wish to make a literal case of the Bible, then you are going to run into some problems - but not just from evolution. A literal interpretation of the Bible will ultimately defeat itself.[/quote]

[i]32 post huh; stick around [/i]

[|Bunghole|]

I for one certainly believe that science and belief in God are NOT mutually exclusive, rather, one reinforces the other.
Creationists are partly right in my opinion...God in fact "set the table" for evolution to occur, "breathing life" into humans was a way for God to make humans "aware" of each other as a fellow being and not another animal...and aware of God's existence...
As long as Creationists are willing to trade truth for symbolism in stories such as Adam and Eve, Jonah and the Whale, Noah's Ark, etc....

[Lawman]

[quote]A literal interpretation of the Bible will ultimately defeat itself.[/quote]

[i]Care to explain yourself, an small example shall suffice.[/i]

[Lawman]

[quote]Bunghole,
I for one certainly believe that science and belief in God are NOT mutually exclusive, rather, one reinforces the other. Creationists are partly right in my opinion...God in fact "set the table" for evolution to occur, "breathing life" into humans was a way for God to make humans "aware" of each other as a fellow being and not another animal...and aware of God's existence...[/quote]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img]

[quote]As long as Creationists are willing to trade truth for symbolism in stories such as Adam and Eve, Jonah and the Whale, Noah's Ark, etc....[/quote]

[i]While I think Adam and Eve along with Noah's Arks are events; Jonah's Whale may have been a story with a message.[/i]

[i]I believe the image ofthe serpent in the garden is missrepresented; Eve was not afraid but attracted to a seduced by the voice of the serpent.[/i]

[i]The flood may have only covered a region of the Known world.[/i]

[CatScratchFever]

Is Ben trying to become the conservative Michael Moore?

[xamination]

[quote name='Lawman' post='532546' date='Aug 23 2007, 07:09 PM'][i]While I think Adam and Eve along with Noah's Arks are events; Jonah's Whale may have been a story with a message.[/i]

[i]I believe the image ofthe serpent in the garden is missrepresented; Eve was not afraid but attracted to a seduced by the voice of the serpent.[/i]

[i]The flood may have only covered a region of the Known world.[/i][/quote]
The problem here is that you are inconsistent with your beliefs - if you are going to take a literal stand, fine, I will show you why Christianity collapses when it does. You would, however, have to take the story of Jonah's whale as fact as well. If you think that some are true and some are false, two questions come to mind -
1. Which stories are to be taken literally?
2. Why chose stories that fly in the face of all known science and that have little to no scientific backing of their own?

Of course, if you don't believe the Bible is to be taken literally, we wouldn't be having this plesent conversation.

[SINcinnati513]

[quote name='Lawman' post='532162' date='Aug 23 2007, 05:46 AM'][i]Your thinking is aligned towards a linear time-line. We get older everyday; God exist outside of that time-line and does not age.[/i][/quote]


But who created him? I mean if god could always exist, why not the cosmos?

[SINcinnati513]

And for people that believe in ID. What is your evidence? What are your reasons?

Please make no references to the bible or any religious text for that matter. Without religious texts, which are man made along with religion itself, ID could not exist.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='SINcinnati513' post='532604' date='Aug 23 2007, 06:20 PM']But who created him? I mean if god could always exist, why not the cosmos?[/quote]
I cannot speak for Lawman, but as far as my belief in God as the Ultimate Cosmic Traveller, He (or possibly She, or even It) has always existed outside of our human ability to comprehend.
I am not saying that to be intentionally ambiguous, I am a firm believer in science, but I also believe that science cannot explain everything no matter how advanced it becomes.
I know, that's the same logic that people in ancient times applied to lightning and volcanoes before science affirmed their existence...but...my assertion has and always will be that our PARTICULAR place in this PARTICULAR solar system, with a PARTICULAR orbit around a PARTICULARLY uninteresting, normal star is just too perfect to be coincidence.
And when you start factoring in the formation of starts, the distances involved to even the very nearest star that MIGHT support life...it's just too convenient to be a cosmic coincidence.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='532606' date='Aug 23 2007, 08:30 PM']I cannot speak for Lawman, but as far as my belief in God as the Ultimate Cosmic Traveller, He (or possibly She, or even It) has always existed outside of our human ability to comprehend.
I am not saying that to be intentionally ambiguous, I am a firm believer in science, but I also believe that science cannot explain everything no matter how advanced it becomes.
I know, that's the same logic that people in ancient times applied to lightning and volcanoes before science affirmed their existence...but...my assertion has and always will be that our PARTICULAR place in this PARTICULAR solar system, with a PARTICULAR orbit around a PARTICULARLY uninteresting, normal star is just too perfect to be coincidence.
And when you start factoring in the formation of starts, the distances involved to even the very nearest star that MIGHT support life...it's just too convenient to be a cosmic coincidence.[/quote]


[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img]

[xamination]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='532606' date='Aug 23 2007, 08:30 PM']I cannot speak for Lawman, but as far as my belief in God as the Ultimate Cosmic Traveller, He (or possibly She, or even It) has always existed outside of our human ability to comprehend.
I am not saying that to be intentionally ambiguous, I am a firm believer in science, but I also believe that science cannot explain everything no matter how advanced it becomes.
I know, that's the same logic that people in ancient times applied to lightning and volcanoes before science affirmed their existence...but...my assertion has and always will be that our PARTICULAR place in this PARTICULAR solar system, with a PARTICULAR orbit around a PARTICULARLY uninteresting, normal star is just too perfect to be coincidence.
And when you start factoring in the formation of starts, the distances involved to even the very nearest star that MIGHT support life...it's just too convenient to be a cosmic coincidence.[/quote]
I don't understand what you are saying - that our world is too perfect to be the product of chance? If so, I'd say of course we think its perfect - we live on it. We find Venus too hot and acid-rainy because Earth isn't that hot or acid-rainy.
Don't forget that millions of planets exist that could support Earth-like life as well.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='xamination' post='532612' date='Aug 23 2007, 06:41 PM']I don't understand what you are saying - that our world is too perfect to be the product of chance? If so, I'd say of course we think its perfect - we live on it. We find Venus too hot and acid-rainy because Earth isn't that hot or acid-rainy.
Don't forget that millions of planets exist that could support Earth-like life as well.[/quote]
Well, we are far from perfect as a people....but our particular situation to support life is certainly perfect...and strangely conincidental.
If you consider how stars and solar systems are formed based on the science we have available, our situation on Earth is pretty unique, as far as we can tell. Why is that? Coincedence? Hardly.
We can only ascertain the existence of other planets through our observations based on "wobbles" in other stars orbits....why is that?
The thing that gets me is...given the distances, do you actually believe that humanity can achieve the necessary speeds in terms of a space ship that can actually find out for sure....in ANYONE'S lifetime?
The nearest star according to our calculations is Centauri...which is 4.2 light years away...SO, if we COULD travel that fast (which is an ENORMOUS obstacle to the laws of physics as we understand it), it would take 4.2 years to get there...and even that has no guarantee of planetary life.
I guess what I am getting at is, yes, I DO believe that the Earth is a special planet for a reason, and that reason is WAY too perfect to be coincidence.

[xamination]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='532623' date='Aug 23 2007, 08:57 PM']Well, we are far from perfect as a people....but our particular situation to support life is certainly perfect...and strangely conincidental.
If you consider how stars and solar systems are formed based on the science we have available, our situation on Earth is pretty unique, as far as we can tell. Why is that? Coincedence? Hardly.
We can only ascertain the existence of other planets through our observations based on "wobbles" in other stars orbits....why is that?
The thing that gets me is...given the distances, do you actually believe that humanity can achieve the necessary speeds in terms of a space ship that can actually find out for sure....in ANYONE'S lifetime?
The nearest star according to our calculations is Centauri...which is 4.2 light years away...SO, if we COULD travel that fast (which is an ENORMOUS obstacle to the laws of physics as we understand it), it would take 4.2 years to get there...and even that has no guarantee of planetary life.
I guess what I am getting at is, yes, I DO believe that the Earth is a special planet for a reason, and that reason is WAY too perfect to be coincidence.[/quote]
Again, you say that because you live here. You say that the temperature is just right, our sun is stable, etc. and this is a sign of God.
Now think about this second. If these conditions on Earth were nonexistent, nobody would say anything about it because [i]no one would be here[/i]. We say that its such a good thing that Earth is the way it is because it is all we know.
Our situation on Earth unique? Hardly. Think about the number of stars in the galaxy(200 billion-400 billion). Are we the only planet in the galaxy to be Earth-like? Think about the number of galaxies in the observable universe(10 to the 11th power). Are we the only planet in the observable universe to be Earth-like? Think about how many observable universe-size chunks make up the whole universe(10 to the 22nd power, but this is hard to estimate). Are we the only planet in the whole universe to be Earth-like?
I don't think so.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='xamination' post='532642' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:49 PM']Again, you say that because you live here. You say that the temperature is just right, our sun is stable, etc. and this is a sign of God.
Now think about this second. If these conditions on Earth were nonexistent, nobody would say anything about it because [i]no one would be here[/i]. We say that its such a good thing that Earth is the way it is because it is all we know.
Our situation on Earth unique? Hardly. Think about the number of stars in the galaxy(200 billion-400 billion). Are we the only planet in the galaxy to be Earth-like? Think about the number of galaxies in the observable universe(10 to the 11th power). Are we the only planet in the observable universe to be Earth-like? Think about how many observable universe-size chunks make up the whole universe(10 to the 22nd power, but this is hard to estimate). Are we the only planet in the whole universe to be Earth-like?
I don't think so.[/quote]

So xamination, when you came to this conclusion that God does not exist, how many of the religions/religious texts did you study in depth before coming to this conclusion? Dont you owe it to yourself to do so if you haven't studied them all.....or at least the 3 major monotheistic religions? Sounds like you have some knowledge when it comes to the Bible (today's version anyways).

Also, how do you feel about ghosts? What do you think happens to us after we physically "die"? I ask you for a reason.