ThurmanMunster Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='BengalBacker' post='601432' date='Nov 30 2007, 03:05 AM']I assure all of you, I'm more qualified to speak on this subject than anyone here. (see how cool I am? ) When I get some time, I'll write a long response. Right now I just want to ask USN, Rudi32, and the others who have expressed similar thoughts if they get the impression I am as stupid and worthless as they've been painting marijuana smokers to be?[/quote] i have 2 things to say to this. 1) you are old, who cares 2) dont some heavy cig smokers live till 80 and 90 and die of natural causes? that doesnt make cig smoking healthy. there are always exceptions to everything. i mean im white but i have a penis bigger than most (and yes im trying to be cool) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalBacker Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='601433' date='Nov 30 2007, 03:16 AM']i have 2 things to say to this. 1) you are old, who cares 2) dont some heavy cig smokers live till 80 and 90 and die of natural causes? that doesnt make cig smoking healthy. there are always exceptions to everything. i mean im white but i have a penis bigger than most (and yes im trying to be cool) [/quote] 1) 2) Of course it's not healthy. Does the fact that it's not healthy make me as bad as some of you are saying? Do you do anything that isn't healthy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USN Bengal Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='BengalBacker' post='601437' date='Nov 30 2007, 03:59 AM']1) 2) Of course it's not healthy. Does the fact that it's not healthy make me as bad as some of you are saying? Do you do anything that isn't healthy?[/quote] [b][i]As an edit, I wanted to add that you & I have always gotten along BB, but I have never been a hypocrite and don't plan to start being one now. If we ever get to meet face to face, I'd still love to buy you a beer. You're good people.. that being said.[/i]..[/b] BB, if you are willingly putting yourself at risk by smoking illegal substances.. then yes, you too are a dumbass for that. Look, you can break out any argument that you want, and I can guarantee that I can find one to refute it. The fact remains that unless you have a job that doesn't require piss tests, you are putting your future at risk. If you drive stoned, you are putting yourself and others at risk. Bottom line, it's illegal... period. Doesn't mean you can't be a decent person who does great things, it means that you have an obvious problem obeying the law and a self destructive streak. To put a known harmful substance into your body willingly is just plain dumb... to do it while also knowing that it is illegal multiplies the dumbness factor to the nth degree. How anyone can argue that is inconceivable. [img]http://www.parseerror.com/images/moments/inconceivable/vizzini.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='CTBengalsFan' post='601353' date='Nov 29 2007, 11:16 PM']you haven't called me names I actually agree with pretty much everything you say, especially since you come from a position of experience. Like I said I am sort of playing devil's advocate here. I don't think we would ever see coke/crack/heroin, etc legalized, but I still think it's worth debating though. Like you, realistically I'd like to see pot legalized. The amount of legitimate money and tax revenue it would bring would be enormous. [b]At the very least, I'd settle for it being decriminalized, as in you get a (reasonable, ideally) ticket for possession, but no court dates[/b]. Like I said before, my status as a white middle class male will likely protect me from the law, as I restrict my smoking to mine or friend's apartments. But still, I have a dream that maybe one day I can walk into a pot store, just as one can walk into a liquor store, buy my flavor of choice, and not have to worry about it. Bung, what do you think about the role coke/crack/heroin money play in organized crime?[/quote] Ohio has some of the friendlier marijuana laws in the US... Here if you posess under 100g (a little under 1/4 lb) it's a civil citation (less than a misdemeanor on par with a traffic ticket), it's a $100 fine which is payable out of court. Any more than that and it gets stiffer, but unlikely to be jail time unless you are selling. Personally I believe use should be decriminilzed, and illegal sale still punished. I believe I should be able to grow and smoke my own without fear of harrassment provided I don't sell it or share it with minors. Also, many of the same arguments against legalization were used to ban alcohol... They thought use and crime would decrease.. Once inacted however just the opposite occured. It became "cooler" to drink.. And underground "speak easy's" popped up all over the US. Not only did people not stop drinking, "binge" drinking increased. Since it was no longer as easy to do, people tended to OVERENDULGE much more when given the oppurtunity. Not only did people begin drinking more destructively, it caused the potency to increase while quality decreased (moonshine -- same thing happened with crack cocaine). Not only were people STILL drinking, AND drinking more dangerously, AND drinking more potent and unhealthy liquers, but the price shot through the roof which caused those who were addicted to turn to criminal activitied to support their habits. Even more disturbing was the fact that since there was so much money to be made SOMEONE was going to make it.. The Mob was happy to step in. Not only did they make the money that eventually led to their rise to power, which led to more widespread crime and violence (mob wars etc). It also had the tragic affect of making everyone who wanted to go to a bar and have a drink criminals. Not only were they themselved breaking the law by drinking, but they were also brought into a world of crime at these "speak easys" where things like gambling prostitution and other drugs were also readily available. By taking what would have otherwise been normal productive citizens and inserting them into an atmosphere of crime, not only were the lives of those involved damaged needlessly, so too were countless innocents who became victimized by the spreading criminal element. Thank god the government figured out that prohibition was a bad idea, and hopefully will do so again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='Lucid' post='601485' date='Nov 30 2007, 09:51 AM']Ohio has some of the friendlier marijuana laws in the US... Here if you posess under 100g (a little under 1/4 lb) it's a civil citation (less than a misdemeanor on par with a traffic ticket), it's a $100 fine which is payable out of court. Any more than that and it gets stiffer, but unlikely to be jail time unless you are selling. Personally I believe use should be decriminilzed, and illegal sale still punished. I believe I should be able to grow and smoke my own without fear of harrassment provided I don't sell it or share it with minors. Also, many of the same arguments against legalization were used to ban alcohol... They thought use and crime would decrease.. Once inacted however just the opposite occured. It became "cooler" to drink.. And underground "speak easy's" popped up all over the US. Not only did people not stop drinking, "binge" drinking increased. Since it was no longer as easy to do, people tended to OVERENDULGE much more when given the oppurtunity. Not only did people begin drinking more destructively, it caused the potency to increase while quality decreased (moonshine -- same thing happened with crack cocaine). Not only were people STILL drinking, AND drinking more dangerously, AND drinking more potent and unhealthy liquers, but the price shot through the roof which caused those who were addicted to turn to criminal activitied to support their habits. Even more disturbing was the fact that since there was so much money to be made SOMEONE was going to make it.. The Mob was happy to step in. Not only did they make the money that eventually led to their rise to power, which led to more widespread crime and violence (mob wars etc). It also had the tragic affect of making everyone who wanted to go to a bar and have a drink criminals. Not only were they themselved breaking the law by drinking, but they were also brought into a world of crime at these "speak easys" where things like gambling prostitution and other drugs were also readily available. By taking what would have otherwise been normal productive citizens and inserting them into an atmosphere of crime, not only were the lives of those involved damaged needlessly, so too were countless innocents who became victimized by the spreading criminal element. Thank god the government figured out that prohibition was a bad idea, and hopefully will do so again.[/quote] This basically sums up my feelings on the whole pot versus alcohol issue. Good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Here's something to ponder for USN.. how much money do you think Al Qaeda has made off illicit drug sales in the US? Those guys (not al qaeda themselves) practically wrote the book on funding political/military movements with drugs. Of course they are still doing it. It's practically in the handbook.. They see nothng wrong with gaining money for their jihad by poisoning infidels. I think considering the large datapool that is human history, it's pretty safe to assume people are always going to want to get high.. And many will go to self destructive means to do so.. Simply wanting this to not be so isn't going to change human nature. I applaud you for your fortitude and discipline. Most others don't have it. It's part of who you are. And accepting people for what they are I think is part of life. In my opinion, since I accept the incessant nature of the market and the vastness of it's economy, the real question is, where does the money go? By allowing the criminals to control it, we empower not only their reach and ability, but also their influnce. The criminals will do nothing good with this money. It will only be used to further damage our society and it's people. Would it not make more sense to harness this economy for boon instead of bane? The money could be used far more effectively educating, providing treatment and eliminating conditions which lead to drug abuse. Isn't it worth a try? I think the point CT was originally making is that what we are doing now isn't working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTBengalsFan Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='Lucid' post='601497' date='Nov 30 2007, 10:30 AM']Here's something to ponder for USN.. how much money do you think Al Qaeda has made off illicit drug sales in the US? Those guys (not al qaeda themselves) practically wrote the book on funding political/military movements with drugs. Of course they are still doing it. It's practically in the handbook.. They see nothng wrong with gaining money for their jihad by poisoning infidels. I think considering the large datapool that is human history, it's pretty safe to assume people are always going to want to get high.. And many will go to self destructive means to do so.. Simply wanting this to not be so isn't going to change human nature. I applaud you for your fortitude and discipline. Most others don't have it. It's part of who you are. And accepting people for what they are I think is part of life. In my opinion, since I accept the incessant nature of the market and the vastness of it's economy, the real question is, where does the money go? By allowing the criminals to control it, we empower not only their reach and ability, but also their influnce. The criminals will do nothing good with this money. It will only be used to further damage our society and it's people. Would it not make more sense to harness this economy for boon instead of bane? The money could be used far more effectively educating, providing treatment and eliminating conditions which lead to drug abuse. Isn't it worth a try? I think the point CT was originally making is that what we are doing now isn't working.[/quote] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img] In Holland, that is the reasoning behind their policies. Drug use is inevitable, the government's role should be in doing everything it can to reduce the harm to users and non-users around them. And the only problems they have with their current policy is other countries bitching at them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='Lucid' post='601497' date='Nov 30 2007, 10:30 AM']Here's something to ponder for USN.. how much money do you think Al Qaeda has made off illicit drug sales in the US? Those guys (not al qaeda themselves) practically wrote the book on funding political/military movements with drugs. Of course they are still doing it. It's practically in the handbook.. They see nothng wrong with gaining money for their jihad by poisoning infidels. I think considering the large datapool that is human history, it's pretty safe to assume people are always going to want to get high.. And many will go to self destructive means to do so.. Simply wanting this to not be so isn't going to change human nature. I applaud you for your fortitude and discipline. Most others don't have it. It's part of who you are. And accepting people for what they are I think is part of life. In my opinion, since I accept the incessant nature of the market and the vastness of it's economy, the real question is, where does the money go? By allowing the criminals to control it, we empower not only their reach and ability, but also their influnce. The criminals will do nothing good with this money. It will only be used to further damage our society and it's people. Would it not make more sense to harness this economy for boon instead of bane? The money could be used far more effectively educating, providing treatment and eliminating conditions which lead to drug abuse. Isn't it worth a try? I think the point CT was originally making is that what we are doing now isn't working.[/quote] Don't you DARE raise ideas like that! Do you actually WANT the black helicopters hovering over your house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 There are going to be murders for hire anyway, so I think the government should decriminalize them. It's inevitable, and right now all the illegality does is keep it in the hands of the mob, where it provides income for criminals, and a lower-quality hitman than would otherwise be available. The government should regulate the hitman industry and require state-issued board exams to guarantee competence in killing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTBengalsFan Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Murders for hire aren't comparable to drug use and you know that. The drug "industry" is one of the biggest in America, murder for hires are rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.A.B. Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='601443' date='Nov 30 2007, 06:44 AM'][b][i]As an edit, I wanted to add that you & I have always gotten along BB, but I have never been a hypocrite and don't plan to start being one now. If we ever get to meet face to face, I'd still love to buy you a beer. You're good people.. that being said.[/i]..[/b] BB, if you are willingly putting yourself at risk by smoking illegal substances.. then yes, you too are a dumbass for that. Look, you can break out any argument that you want, and I can guarantee that I can find one to refute it. The fact remains that unless you have a job that doesn't require piss tests, you are putting your future at risk. If you drive stoned, you are putting yourself and others at risk. Bottom line, it's illegal... period. Doesn't mean you can't be a decent person who does great things, it means that you have an obvious problem obeying the law and a self destructive streak. To put a known harmful substance into your body willingly is just plain dumb... to do it while also knowing that it is illegal multiplies the dumbness factor to the nth degree. How anyone can argue that is inconceivable. [img]http://www.parseerror.com/images/moments/inconceivable/vizzini.jpg[/img][/quote] So because it's illegal its wrong? I find myself that the pros heavily outweigh the cons. If I get caught, the most I'll get is a fine, cause it's not like I'm pushing weight. I'm not gonna have any more than an eighth on me at anytime. The fact that its even illegal is stupid. So my response to that law is sparking up a blunt everynow and then . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='CTBengalsFan' post='601594' date='Nov 30 2007, 12:18 PM']Murders for hire aren't comparable to drug use and you know that. The drug "industry" is one of the biggest in America, murder for hires are rare.[/quote] It's called reductio ad absurdum, but you probably already knew that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTBengalsFan Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Yes and I don't think you can use logical arguments to prove real life issues wrong. Are you ever going to say what you believe in literal terms or just going to leave us to infer for ourselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='Actium' post='601593' date='Nov 30 2007, 01:16 PM']There are going to be murders for hire anyway, so I think the government should decriminalize them. It's inevitable, and right now all the illegality does is keep it in the hands of the mob, where it provides income for criminals, and a lower-quality hitman than would otherwise be available. The government should regulate the hitman industry and require state-issued board exams to guarantee competence in killing.[/quote] I guess you can try to compare sitting in your living room smoking a bowl to paying someone to murder someone else. To me though, anyone who sees any commonality in the two is pretty fucked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='CTBengalsFan' post='601616' date='Nov 30 2007, 12:43 PM']Yes and I don't think you can use logical arguments to prove real life issues wrong. Are you ever going to say what you believe in literal terms or just going to leave us to infer for ourselves?[/quote] I just can't believe you think it's a good idea to have heroin and crack rocks for sale in the local convenience store. I agree that you can't always use logical arguments in real life issues. the problem is, you are trying to do just that to show why drugs should be legalized and regulated. can you imagine how many more people would use drugs if they don't have to get them off the streets? What kind of impact that would have on society, not to mention the economy? There's a difference between liberty and license--liberty must be tempered with restraint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='Lucid' post='601617' date='Nov 30 2007, 12:44 PM']I guess you can try to compare sitting in your living room smoking a bowl to paying someone to murder someone else. To me though, anyone who sees any commonality in the two is pretty fucked up.[/quote] Perhaps you've read my other posts on this thread? The ones where I said if you are going to light up, do so discreetly in the comfort of your own home and don't go around bragging about it or doing it in public? Perhaps you realize that the post you quoted has to do with the other arguments espoused, that is, the idea that the war on drugs has failed and instead all drugs should be legalized and regulated because otherwise it's just feeds organized crime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='Actium' post='601619' date='Nov 30 2007, 01:48 PM']I just can't believe you think it's a good idea to have heroin and crack rocks for sale in the local convenience store. I agree that you can't always use logical arguments in real life issues. the problem is, you are trying to do just that to show why drugs should be legalized and regulated. can you imagine how many more people would use drugs if they don't have to get them off the streets? What kind of impact that would have on society, not to mention the economy? There's a difference between liberty and license--liberty must be tempered with restraint.[/quote] You mean like the way society fell apart when they re-legalized alcohol? Or the way it's fallen apart in The Netherlands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='Lucid' post='601622' date='Nov 30 2007, 12:53 PM']You mean like the way society fell apart when they re-legalized alcohol? Or the way it's fallen apart in The Netherlands?[/quote] Oh, in the Netherlands, where they are going to take away mushrooms because people can't handle it? You clearly are not processing that I am referring to the harder drugs. On the marijuana issue I don't really care. I don't want to do drugs, and I tend to laugh at middle-aged people who still do. The reasons certain drugs are legal is historical. If they were widely accepted, you can't really take it away again. Pandora's box. Except this time there wouldn't even be hope left inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTBengalsFan Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Like I said, I don't really see that ever happening. But I am still not convinced it would do as much harm as many think it would. And if it were up it me it wouldnt be in a local convenience store, it would probably have to be a facility where they dispense it, similar to methadone now. I think marijuana, today, could be sold the way alcohol is, people would have to have a license, if they're irresponsible about who they sell to, they can lose their store. Would you do heroin if it was legal? Do you think your family members would? I don't see addiction as caused by the individual substance, I see people whose personalities are prone to falling into destructive patterns of behavior and problematic drug use is a popular choice. And the people with those kinds of personalities, today, can easily obtain their drugs of choice, but in the process they are made criminals. They're unlucky that destructive pattern of behavior wasn't overeating, being consumed by video games, gambling, or any number of vices that don't make you a criminal... Also remember that in Holland, even marijuana is still technically not legal. It's just that the police do not arrest people for possession, and allow the coffeeshops that sell it to operate undisturbed as long as they don't advertise, sell to minors, etc... And even heroin addicts are brought to treatment, not to court, or to prison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='CTBengalsFan' post='601624' date='Nov 30 2007, 12:59 PM']Like I said, I don't really see that ever happening. But I am still not convinced it would do as much harm as many think it would. And if it were up it me it wouldnt be in a local convenience store, it would probably have to be a facility where they dispense it, similar to methadone now. I think marijuana, today, could be sold the way alcohol is, people would have to have a license, if they're irresponsible about who they sell to, they can lose their store. Would you do heroin if it was legal? Do you think your family members would? I don't see addiction as caused by the individual substance, I see people whose personalities are prone to falling into destructive patterns of behavior and problematic drug use is a popular choice. And the people with those kinds of personalities, today, can easily obtain their drugs of choice, but in the process they are made criminals. They're unlucky that destructive pattern of behavior wasn't overeating, being consumed by video games, gambling, or any number of vices that don't make you a criminal... Also remember that in Holland, even marijuana is still technically not legal. It's just that the police do not arrest people for possession, and allow the coffeeshops that sell it to operate undisturbed as long as they don't advertise, sell to minors, etc... And even heroin addicts are brought to treatment, not to court, or to prison.[/quote] I already told you my solution to the drug war. Have black ops of the government distribute drugs laced with poision that cause extreme sickness, designed to inculcate a Pavlovian response in users to stay away from it. If they continue to do the drugs anyway, the dosage will eventually be fatal. I'm not joking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTBengalsFan Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='Actium' post='601626' date='Nov 30 2007, 02:01 PM']I already told you my solution to the drug war. Have black ops of the government distribute drugs laced with poision that cause extreme sickness, designed to inculcate a Pavlovian response in users to stay away from it. If they continue to do the drugs anyway, the dosage will eventually be fatal. I'm not joking.[/quote] Should we do the same to Big Macs? So fat people can stop increasing my health insurance costs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTBengalsFan Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='CTBengalsFan' post='601627' date='Nov 30 2007, 02:04 PM']Should we do the same to Big Macs? So fat people can stop increasing my health insurance costs?[/quote] Oh, and what's your plan for degenerate gamblers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='Actium' post='601626' date='Nov 30 2007, 02:01 PM']I already told you my solution to the drug war. Have black ops of the government distribute drugs laced with poision that cause extreme sickness, designed to inculcate a Pavlovian response in users to stay away from it. If they continue to do the drugs anyway, the dosage will eventually be fatal. I'm not joking.[/quote] Which is why your opinion on this matter is irrelevant.. That is most illogical thing I have ever read by you. I won't insult you intelligence to try and explain why.. You already know, and if you don't it's a matter of choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='CTBengalsFan' post='601627' date='Nov 30 2007, 01:04 PM']Should we do the same to Big Macs? So fat people can stop increasing my health insurance costs?[/quote] Big Macs are already poison. And if you think health insurance costs would go down, you're fooling yourself. Do you know why health insurance is so high? Because the prices hospitals charge them. Do you know why hospitals charge so much? Because they know the insurance companies will pay. And who ultimately pays? Why, the consumer of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='CTBengalsFan' post='601630' date='Nov 30 2007, 01:06 PM']Oh, and what's your plan for degenerate gamblers?[/quote] Nature takes care of degenerate gamblers. They eventually lose enough money that they kill themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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