Brat: The Man, the Myth, the Legend

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='lslmustang' post='704075' date='Sep 21 2008, 08:37 PM']Did Bresneshan have a contract??? I"m pretty sure he did and we fired him. Why wouldn't be fire Brat even if he has a contract. His can't be anywhere near what Marvin's is. I can understand that logic for Marvin but not for Brat....[/quote]


Breshnahan's contract was up.

[Khatmandude]

Actually, that wasn't all THAT bad of a called game. I give him a B-/C+ during regulation but OT turned back into the Brat we all know and don't love. Hell of a game today though.

[BengalsOwn]

It did seem like they pussed out in OT, but they were probably assuming the Giants would be playing to stop the pass.

If we had a better run blocking O-Line, it would've went better.

Guycheck sucks. Levi Jones sucks. Andrews, even though he played 100x better today than he has all season, still isn't much better than average.

That's our problem. And I think they are putting too much faith in the O-Line's ability, and that needs to stop.

[Palmer4HOF]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='704092' date='Sep 21 2008, 09:16 PM']Actually, that wasn't all THAT bad of a called game. I give him a B-/C+ during regulation but OT turned back into the Brat we all know and don't love. Hell of a game today though.[/quote]

I think he was fine ... until it mattered most.

[quote name='BengalsOwn' post='704094' date='Sep 21 2008, 09:22 PM']It did seem like they pussed out in OT, but they were probably assuming the Giants would be playing to stop the pass.

If we had a better run blocking O-Line, it would've went better.

Guycheck sucks. Levi Jones sucks. Andrews, even though he played 100x better today than he has all season, still isn't much better than average.

That's our problem. And I think they are putting too much faith in the O-Line's ability, and that needs to stop.[/quote]


Pussed out is in an understatement ... at what point do we quit trying to play to what the defense is going to do? Thats what he's done for the last two years. Instead of lining up and saying "this is what we're going to do, and let's go do it", he tries to get cute and think what they will do and play off that. Carson and the offense looked great throwing the ball on the 3 or so previous drives, keep fucking doing it in OT and go for the kill ...

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='703897' date='Sep 21 2008, 04:59 PM']Please fire him ... now.

Great playcalling in overtime Brat ... thanks!![/quote]


[img]http://wa4.images.onesite.com/thelotd.com/user/sportskitten/bengals_line/dscn6107.jpg[/img]

[-Dan_Bengals_FL-]

fixed:

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/Pavbure10/hire.jpg[/img]

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='704099' date='Sep 21 2008, 10:29 PM']I think he was fine ... until it mattered most.




Pussed out is in an understatement ... at what point do we quit trying to play to what the defense is going to do? Thats what he's done for the last two years. Instead of lining up and saying "this is what we're going to do, and let's go do it", he tries to get cute and think what they will do and play off that. Carson and the offense looked great throwing the ball on the 3 or so previous drives, keep fucking doing it in OT and go for the kill ...[/quote]


so he called two straight "make no running holes for perry so he gaines no yards" run plays?

makes perfect sense.. i wouldnt suppose execution has anything to do with it? if he had thrown three time for incompletions we would be bitching about he we "abandoned the run, i thought we were going back to the run?!?!?!?!??! give perry the ball, he broke a big one for a td, let him make something happen!?!?!?!?!?!"

had he even been able to run for his game average at the time it would have been 3rd and 2 or 3. the o-line laid eggs in overtime, not mere playcalling. how is it the players have no accountability?

seems like an uninformed scapegoat.... why bother analyzing any actual performance when you can blame a coordinator or coach?

im quite sure the play called for the oline to BLOCK and create a HOLE to run through....

ill have to look at the playbook and let you guys know... cause if he DOES have "fail to make holes to run through" plays in the playbook, im with you... GET HIM OUT OF HERE... we dont need those kinds of plays... it doesnt even make sense...

[Palmer4HOF]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='704909' date='Sep 25 2008, 12:07 AM']so he called two straight "make no running holes for perry so he gaines no yards" run plays?

makes perfect sense.. i wouldnt suppose execution has anything to do with it? if he had thrown three time for incompletions we would be bitching about he we "abandoned the run, i thought we were going back to the run?!?!?!?!??! give perry the ball, he broke a big one for a td, let him make something happen!?!?!?!?!?!"

had he even been able to run for his game average at the time it would have been 3rd and 2 or 3. the o-line laid eggs in overtime, not mere playcalling. how is it the players have no accountability?

seems like an uninformed scapegoat.... why bother analyzing any actual performance when you can blame a coordinator or coach?

im quite sure the play called for the oline to BLOCK and create a HOLE to run through....

ill have to look at the playbook and let you guys know... cause if he DOES have "fail to make holes to run through" plays in the playbook, im with you... GET HIM OUT OF HERE... we dont need those kinds of plays... it doesnt even make sense... [/quote]

I dont give a fuck if the running play worked or didn't worked in OT ... the fact that he called it after we went down the field passing the ball on previous drives (and actually resembled a good offense for once) is rediculous. The man is a good offensive coordinator, but his time is up in Cincy. He tries to get cute instead of doing what his teams do best.

And no ... in overtime, you do abandon the run (unless your a running team)... did you see what NYG did? They said fuck it and went for the game by passing the ball. Brat had all game to establish the run (and obviously it didn't work) so why try and do it in Overtime? We looked GREAT passing the ball late in the game... the O-line (and keeping our TE and RB in the backfield) were protecting well enough to give Carson time to do what he does best


But I'll tell you what... how about me and all the other non-knowledgable, uninformed scapegoat, rocking chair QB football fans just sit back and watch you and Dan stroke Brats ego some more ... i'll just keep quiet and you guys can keep clueing my in on how far off I am when watching games and that I'm seeing one of the greatest OCs call our games each week

deal?

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='704931' date='Sep 25 2008, 07:18 AM']I dont give a fuck if the running play worked or didn't worked in OT ... the fact that he called it after we went down the field passing the ball on previous drives (and actually resembled a good offense for once) is rediculous. The man is a good offensive coordinator, but his time is up in Cincy. He tries to get cute instead of doing what his teams do best.

And no ... in overtime, you do abandon the run (unless your a running team)... did you see what NYG did? They said fuck it and went for the game by passing the ball. Brat had all game to establish the run (and obviously it didn't work) so why try and do it in Overtime? We looked GREAT passing the ball late in the game... the O-line (and keeping our TE and RB in the backfield) were protecting well enough to give Carson time to do what he does best


But I'll tell you what... how about me and all the other non-knowledgable, uninformed scapegoat, rocking chair QB football fans just sit back and watch you and Dan stroke Brats ego some more ...[b] i'll just keep quiet and you guys can keep clueing my in on how far off I am when watching games and that I'm seeing one of the greatest OCs call our games each week
[/b]
deal?[/quote]



Consider yourself lucky to be a witness to the genius that is Bob Bratkowski.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='704931' date='Sep 25 2008, 06:48 AM']I dont give a fuck if the running play worked or didn't worked in OT ... the fact that he called it after we went down the field passing the ball on previous drives (and actually resembled a good offense for once) is rediculous. The man is a good offensive coordinator, but his time is up in Cincy. He tries to get cute instead of doing what his teams do best.

And no ... in overtime, you do abandon the run (unless your a running team)... [b]did you see what NYG did? They said fuck it and went for the game by passing the ball.[/b] Brat had all game to establish the run (and obviously it didn't work) so why try and do it in Overtime? We looked GREAT passing the ball late in the game... the O-line (and keeping our TE and RB in the backfield) were protecting well enough to give Carson time to do what he does best


But I'll tell you what... how about me and all the other non-knowledgable, uninformed scapegoat, rocking chair QB football fans just sit back and watch you and Dan stroke Brats ego some more ... i'll just keep quiet and you guys can keep clueing my in on how far off I am when watching games and that I'm seeing one of the greatest OCs call our games each week

deal?[/quote]


yea and they had to punt, so if we fell to the same fate, we would have them in awfully good field position, we were on the 25 i believe, a 40 yard punt with NO return, would have them on their 35, and considering larson was averaging 37 yards and they were averaging 10 yards per punt return in the game, that would put the punt at the 38, then returned to the 48, so they start at mid field, and even the AVERAGE yards from perry at that point would give us a very short 3rd down, a pass after a stuff incomplete leaves 3rd and 10, youd think the line could give ANY hole and get a 3rd and 6-7 instead.


no no keep blaming the OC who put up more points on the champs than both of their first two teams they beat combined.. perfectly logical...

you can throw as many hissy fits in threads as you wish, im just stating what happened with facts from the game and the situations in the game. one of us is playing a misguided blame game, and one of us is basing an opinion off facts from what actually occured...

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='704997' date='Sep 25 2008, 11:09 AM']yea and they had to punt, so if we fell to the same fate, we would have them in awfully good field position, we were on the 25 i believe, a 40 yard punt with NO return, would have them on their 35, and considering larson was averaging 37 yards and they were averaging 10 yards per punt return in the game, that would put the punt at the 38, then returned to the 48, so they start at mid field, and even the AVERAGE yards from perry at that point would give us a very short 3rd down, a pass after a stuff incomplete leaves 3rd and 10, youd think the line could give ANY hole and get a 3rd and 6-7 instead.

[size=3][b]
no no keep blaming the OC who put up more points on the champs than both of their first two teams they beat combined.. perfectly logical...[/b][/size]

you can throw as many hissy fits in threads as you wish, im just stating what happened with facts from the game and the situations in the game. one of us is playing a misguided blame game, and one of us is basing an opinion off facts from what actually occured...[/quote]



OK, so when we actually score, it's the OC who puts up the points, but when we suck as an offense then it's the players not executing the brilliant plays...... now I see

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='705006' date='Sep 25 2008, 10:48 AM']OK, so when we actually score, it's the OC who puts up the points, but when we suck as an offense then it's the players not executing the brilliant plays...... now I see [/quote]


thats actually correct, how could it possibly be any other way? or do you actually think there is a play that is called "perry stuffed at the line"?



or do you think running the ball to make for a shorter gain on passing downs is a bad strategy? especially right after the giants all pass drive ended in a punt? if so, why do you think so? we were able to convert many shorter 3rd down plays, especially with shorter passes to chatman and perry. even reggie kelly got in on the short pass action. to its basically what had been working for us the whole game. and you cant really argue that the defense would be expecting a run on 2nd and 10, so wouldnt that make sense to put us in a shorter 3rd down position than the potential of a incomplete pass or a mistake on our own 20 putting them already in field goal range?

if you disagree with the strategy, fine, state so, but all we get is "OMFG BRAT SUCKZORS!!!!11"

little witty quibbs and LOL faces arent really saying much....

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='705006' date='Sep 25 2008, 09:48 AM']OK, so when we actually score, it's the OC who puts up the points, but when we suck as an offense then it's the players not executing the brilliant plays...... now I see [/quote]


As opposed to the folk who say its the talent and never brat? Goes both ways my friend. He called a good game, mostly, this week and other than you most of the haters would poke a pencil in their eye rather than say so.

[Actium]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='705011' date='Sep 25 2008, 09:53 AM']As opposed to the folk who say its the talent and never brat? Goes both ways my friend. He called a good game, mostly, this week and other than you most of the haters would poke a pencil in their eye rather than say so.[/quote]

He did good this week, no shovel pass that I remember.

He has some great plays, but he is too predictable in calling them. He's stubborn and not flexible, like the rest of this coaching staff. If he can mix it up more, and insert some new plays, he'll be once again one of the best and so will our O.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='705010' date='Sep 25 2008, 11:23 AM']thats actually correct, how could it possibly be any other way? or do you actually think there is a play that is called "perry stuffed at the line"?



or do you think running the ball to make for a shorter gain on passing downs is a bad strategy? especially right after the giants all pass drive ended in a punt? if so, why do you think so? we were able to convert many shorter 3rd down plays, especially with shorter passes to chatman and perry. even reggie kelly got in on the short pass action. to its basically what had been working for us the whole game. and you cant really argue that the defense would be expecting a run on 2nd and 10, so wouldnt that make sense to put us in a shorter 3rd down position than the potential of a incomplete pass or a mistake on our own 20 putting them already in field goal range?

if you disagree with the strategy, fine, state so, but all we get is "OMFG BRAT SUCKZORS!!!!11"

little witty quibbs and LOL faces arent really saying much....[/quote]



I think it was poor playcalling in OT, and I think the majority of the people here and that I know outside of this board agree. We're all entitled to our opinions though. It would be a non issue if the past wasn't also marred with horrendous playcalling IMO.

And for the record, I've never stated "OMFG BRAT SUCKZORS!!!!!11" ........... when I have complaints about him I list why I feel so. More often than not it's his inability to adjust to a game and/or his inability to dictate to the defense as opposed to being reactionary. This is his biggest flaw. He's a great designer of plays and his playbook is one of the finest in the NFL I would imagine but his situational playcalling is lacking bigitme. His creativity is lacking bigtime. Him being able to put his players in a position to be successful is lacking bigtime.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='705011' date='Sep 25 2008, 11:23 AM']As opposed to the folk who say its the talent and never brat? Goes both ways my friend. He called a good game, mostly, this week and other than you most of the haters would poke a pencil in their eye rather than say so.[/quote]



I've never once stated that it's the talent and never Brat......you're quoting my post so this must insinuate that I fall into this category. It's a two way street in football. Coaches have to make the right calls and players have to execute them........you'd be dumb not to acknowledge this. BUT at the same time, it's the coaches' job to put their players in a position to be successful an in a position where they will be able to execute properly. You can't try to run the ball at the heart of the Ravens' defense when they've stacked the line and blame the player who failed to get the one yard because he wasnt put in a position to succeed. Indeed, it does work both ways.

As for pencils in the eyes and all that............I have nothing against Brat personally. HE didn't bite my cats ear off or he didn't steal my baseball card collection 10 yrs ago. I judge him solely on how he calls games on Sundays (and Thursdays and Mondays occasionally) and the past 3 yrs he has more often than not, disappointed me in the way he performs his job. That's it. If he does a good job , I have no problem giving him credit. I do it all the time on a micro level when during a game, he'll call a good play and those I am with witness my acknowledging that fact. On a message board, I'm giving my overall opinion of the full game so it seems negative but it doesn't mean I dont credit him for good calls ever.

And in the same token, there are some here who NEVER admit it was a bad playcall. Its this or that, but it's NEVER the coach. That too, goes both ways my friend.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='705043' date='Sep 25 2008, 11:48 AM']I think it was poor playcalling in OT, and I think the majority of the people here and that I know outside of this board agree. We're all entitled to our opinions though. It would be a non issue if the past wasn't also marred with horrendous playcalling IMO.

And for the record, I've never stated "OMFG BRAT SUCKZORS!!!!!11" ........... when I have complaints about him I list why I feel so. More often than not it's his inability to adjust to a game and/or his inability to dictate to the defense as opposed to being reactionary. This is his biggest flaw. He's a great designer of plays and his playbook is one of the finest in the NFL I would imagine but his situational playcalling is lacking bigitme. His creativity is lacking bigtime. Him being able to put his players in a position to be successful is lacking bigtime.[/quote]


i certainly agree that in game adjustments arent often made. and i dont know where that liability lies, it seems bigger on defense than offense, and i think you know i wasnt targeting just you in the OMFG comment, and i know you see it here as well. i had to listen to some dude at the airport go on and on about it. never making a valid point in the 35 minutes i had to endure his jibberish. but players must execute, perry didnt just fall down, and a few yard gain on first opens options for 2nd, they didnt even stack the box on 2nd, which seems a decent idea to run for a few for a short third... but again no room to run, so then behind the 8 ball they KNOW your passing on 3rd.


you know you cant just factor in "THROW, YOU THREW ALL GAME AND IT WORKED!" its OT, its their house, and your on your own 20-25... a mistakes means the games over, a 3 and one with no gain means they get good position and games all but over.

if we threw a pick on 1st down, you and i both KNOW there would be a "WTF WAS BRAT THINKING ITS OT SAFE PLAYS RUN RUN PASS< YOU DONT THROW WITH YOUR BACK TO YOUR OWN ENDZONE ON FIRST DOWN" without a doubt that thread would exist and 99% of the same people bitching here would be bitching there..

we ran a draw play against the ravnes in 2004, on 3rd and 19.. for 20 yards, and started a comeback in their house to win it... genius call? it watson got no blocking and was tackled at the line, it would be a HORRIBLE call..and we would have lost... so execution is 90% of playcalling.

i think the first run was a good call, the 2nd one was a safe call and the pass was a good play, 11 yard out pattern... tho it was an inch from being picked and an inch from being a big play (tj had ROOOOM behind him)..... but all 3 plays failed to be executed, so the drive was a disaster and we lost...

if we were at our own 35-45, i think the 2nd down call is a pass, hell maybe even the first down call... it was no scrub defense on the field...

[GoatGreen]

Brat hardly sucks. Its true that it is more about player and team execution than anything else.

But I'll tell you what Brat is:

Average at best.



Innovation? Creativity? Adjustment?

Rarely, if ever.



Again, I'm not saying he sucks, but he is no Sam Wyche. Hell, Brat is no Bruce Coslet.

I want better at OC than average at best.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='GoatGreen' post='705055' date='Sep 25 2008, 12:06 PM']Brat hardly sucks. Its true that it is more about player and team execution than anything else.

But I'll tell you what Brat is:

Average at best.

Again, I'm not saying he sucks, but he is no Sam Wyche. Hell, Brat is no Bruce Coslet.

I want better at OC than average at best.[/quote]


well, thats untrue.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='705054' date='Sep 25 2008, 12:34 PM']i certainly agree that in game adjustments arent often made. and i dont know where that liability lies, it seems bigger on defense than offense, and i think you know i wasnt targeting just you in the OMFG comment, and i know you see it here as well. i had to listen to some dude at the airport go on and on about it. never making a valid point in the 35 minutes i had to endure his jibberish. but players must execute, perry didnt just fall down, and a few yard gain on first opens options for 2nd, they didnt even stack the box on 2nd, which seems a decent idea to run for a few for a short third... but again no room to run, so then behind the 8 ball they KNOW your passing on 3rd.


you know you cant just factor in "THROW, YOU THREW ALL GAME AND IT WORKED!" its OT, its their house, and your on your own 20-25... a mistakes means the games over, a 3 and one with no gain means they get good position and games all but over.

if we threw a pick on 1st down, you and i both KNOW there would be a "WTF WAS BRAT THINKING ITS OT SAFE PLAYS RUN RUN PASS< YOU DONT THROW WITH YOUR BACK TO YOUR OWN ENDZONE ON FIRST DOWN" without a doubt that thread would exist and 99% of the same people bitching here would be bitching there..

we ran a draw play against the ravnes in 2004, on 3rd and 19.. for 20 yards, and started a comeback in their house to win it... genius call? it watson got no blocking and was tackled at the line, it would be a HORRIBLE call..and we would have lost... so execution is 90% of playcalling.

i think the first run was a good call, the 2nd one was a safe call and the pass was a good play, 11 yard out pattern... tho it was an inch from being picked and an inch from being a big play (tj had ROOOOM behind him)..... but all 3 plays failed to be executed, so the drive was a disaster and we lost...

if we were at our own 35-45, i think the 2nd down call is a pass, hell maybe even the first down call... it was no scrub defense on the field...[/quote]


That's what makes a fan a fan though...........being FANATICAL about things.

I would have punched that guy at the airport in the neck so he couldnt talk anymore.

[GoatGreen]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='705057' date='Sep 25 2008, 11:08 AM']well, thats untrue.[/quote]


You're right, Brat is an offensive genius. Brat needs to be included with other former Bengal offensive innovators such as Paul Brown, Bill Walsh, Sam Wyche, and Bruce Coslet.


His playcalling is never predictable and always innovative. Halftime adjustments are always spot on, and with a creative spin to it that lets you know there is truly a master of his craft at the controls.

My bad.

[TheBeaverHunter]

Dude, I have been saying this since 05. You are not going to win this battle at this time. Only way we are going to win is when they let him go and NO OTHER NFL team hires him as an OC. Maybe then people will realize.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='TheBeaverHunter' post='705073' date='Sep 25 2008, 11:41 AM']Dude, I have been saying this since 05. You are not going to win this battle at this time. Only way we are going to win is when they let him go and [color="#FF0000"]NO OTHER NFL team hires him as an OC[/color]. Maybe then people will realize.[/quote]


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

No Really

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='705083' date='Sep 25 2008, 01:40 PM']:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

No Really

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:[/quote]


Lets just say that I would love to find out if BeaverHunter is right or if you're right.......

[TheBeaverHunter]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='705097' date='Sep 25 2008, 01:50 PM']Lets just say that I would love to find out if BeaverHunter is right or if you're right.......[/quote]


Yes, this is one instance I wouldn't mind being wrong. I just want to have the chance.