Brat: The Man, the Myth, the Legend

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='705097' date='Sep 25 2008, 01:50 PM']Lets just say that I would love to find out if BeaverHunter is right or if you're right.......[/quote]


Brat has put together a top 10 O in Seattle, and a top 10 O in Cincinnati, there is ZERO chance he wouldnt get another job.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='705101' date='Sep 25 2008, 03:26 PM']Brat has put together a top 10 O in Seattle, and a top 10 O in Cincinnati, there is ZERO chance he wouldnt get another job.[/quote]


I'll help Brat find another job.....

[Palmer4HOF]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='704997' date='Sep 25 2008, 09:39 AM']yea and they had to punt, so if we fell to the same fate, we would have them in awfully good field position, we were on the 25 i believe, a 40 yard punt with NO return, would have them on their 35, and considering larson was averaging 37 yards and they were averaging 10 yards per punt return in the game, that would put the punt at the 38, then returned to the 48, so they start at mid field, and even the AVERAGE yards from perry at that point would give us a very short 3rd down, a pass after a stuff incomplete leaves 3rd and 10, youd think the line could give ANY hole and get a 3rd and 6-7 instead.


no no keep blaming the OC who put up more points on the champs than both of their first two teams they beat combined.. perfectly logical...

you can throw as many hissy fits in threads as you wish, im just stating what happened with facts from the game and the situations in the game. one of us is playing a misguided blame game, and one of us is basing an opinion off facts from what actually occured...[/quote]

I don't even understand this post (must be way over the head of the average stay at home football fan??)


In OT, NYG started on thier 20 and ended thier drive on a 4th and 1 on the 44 after they passed the ball 5 straight times (net gain of 24 yards ...)

In OT, CIN started at thier 25 and ended thier drive on a 3rd and 8 on the 27 (net gain of 2 yards)



Regardless, I'm done commenting on this whole Bratkowski situation... I have said numerous times i think the man is a good / decent OC but his time is way up in Cincinnati the way his units have played the past 2 years, and his playcalling has become overly predictable. I still stand by thoughts that he would be considered a far better offensive coordinator if he would let someone else do his playcalling for him...

[GoatGreen]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='705101' date='Sep 25 2008, 01:56 PM']Brat has put together a top 10 O in Seattle, and a top 10 O in Cincinnati, there is ZERO chance he wouldnt get another job.[/quote]


disagree. He might get another coaching job. Like a QB coach for example. But based on his results with all he has had to work with here... I just don't see many teams knocking on his door if the Bengals fire him.

You point to 2005. I point to his overall body of work here, with what he has had to work with here.

Again, I'm not saying he sucks. I just think he is very very very average.

[Squirrlnutz]

People are missing the whole point entirely.


Brat doesn't suck and would certainly get a job elswher...and our O has floundered under him in recent times especially the run game.

I don't think he needs to go because he's not good...I think he needs to go so we can get a fresh pair of eyes to look at the talent on this roster and utilize it in a different manner than Brat.

Can someone explain why CJ can't/won't/doesn't run patterns out of the slot? Why can the Panthers get Steve Smith matched up on an LB...why can the Pats get Moss matched up on a saftey...and we are stuck with Chad lining up against their best corner with saftey help on every play?

I think a new pair of eyes with new ideas is a must for this team after 08. Get us running fakes with backdoor screens, get Palmer into more short drops with 4-5 yard completions etc. Its gone stale and we could use a fresh new approach to offense.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='GoatGreen' post='705120' date='Sep 25 2008, 02:49 PM']disagree. He might get another coaching job. Like a QB coach for example. But based on his results with all he has had to work with here... I just don't see many teams knocking on his door if the Bengals fire him.

You point to 2005. I point to his overall body of work here, with what he has had to work with here.

Again, I'm not saying he sucks. I just think he is very very very average.[/quote]



Uhm you think the O has only been top 10 in '05? You might want to go research that.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='705127' date='Sep 25 2008, 03:12 PM']People are missing the whole point entirely.


Brat doesn't suck and would certainly get a job elswher...and our O has floundered under him in recent times especially the run game.

I don't think he needs to go because he's not good...I think he needs to go so we can get a fresh pair of eyes to look at the talent on this roster and utilize it in a different manner than Brat.

Can someone explain why CJ can't/won't/doesn't run patterns out of the slot? Why can the Panthers get Steve Smith matched up on an LB...why can the Pats get Moss matched up on a saftey...and we are stuck with Chad lining up against their best corner with saftey help on every play?

I think a new pair of eyes with new ideas is a must for this team after 08. Get us running fakes with backdoor screens, get Palmer into more short drops with 4-5 yard completions etc. Its gone stale and we could use a fresh new approach to offense.[/quote]



that would kind of be my argument. I don't think Brat sucks, but I also certainly don't think he's maximizing the output of our talent.

[GoatGreen]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='705132' date='Sep 25 2008, 03:27 PM']Uhm you think the O has only been top 10 in '05? You might want to go research that.[/quote]

Didn't say that. I said Brat's success is tied to 2005. 2005 is the only year in Brat's tenure that you could say the offense was firing on all cylinders.

Dude has had a lot to work with here.

I'm not going to argue about it anymore. If you can't see how stale Brat's offense has become here, then I will leave you to your statistics.

[T-Dub]

The only complaint I have is that he seems to out-think himself sometimes. In December, in open-air PBS, with the play-offs on the line.. Well, maybe "Genius" is not the most useful of attributes.

Ever seen Princess Bride? Brat=Vizzini

INCONCEIVABLE!!

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='T-Dub' post='705174' date='Sep 25 2008, 07:33 PM']The only complaint I have is that he seems to out-think himself sometimes. In December, in open-air PBS, with the play-offs on the line.. Well, maybe "Genius" is not the most useful of attributes.

Ever seen Princess Bride? Brat=Vizzini

[b]INCONCEIVABLE!![/b][/quote]

"You keep saying that, I'm not so sure that word means what you think it means..."


I don't think our offense has been as good as the "top ten rankings" they have gotten which have been brought up on many occasions in this thread...total yards is a pretty poor gauge of how good an offense is. It doesn't take into account scoring, red zone efficiency, and 3rd down efficiency which are all greater factors in determining how good an offense is. We have been a bad team with a bad defense so naturally we're starting drives closer to our endzones than say the Patriots, so we have a lot more ground to cover and teams are a lot more willing to "bend" thus giving us more yards.

We have put up good points, but it has steadily declined since 05 (4th, 8th, 11th, and currently 29th). I think its pretty obvious that our team has had poor 3rd down efficiency and the redzone production has been less than stellar. To me, these mean more than moving the ball from our 15 to their 40 without getting points. I'm not saying that its not important to be able to move the ball between the 20s, but I'd rather improve in these areas (3rd down and redzone) and bank on our D improving enough to give us better field position, than continue being able to sling the ball in the middle of the field, and choke down in crunch time.

This is why I feel we need a new approach to utilizing our talent and thus a new coordinator. I mean...has Carson ever run a Naked Boot? Where is the creativity? I think Brat can get Carson 4000 yards, and CJ and TJ 1000 yards and 8 tds year in and year out...but a new guy might be able to turn the tables on the Steelers and give us the upper hand in the rivalry, and that, IMO, will put us over the edge..........................that and obviously Defensive improvement.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='GoatGreen' post='705146' date='Sep 25 2008, 03:57 PM']Didn't say that. I said Brat's success is tied to 2005. 2005 is the only year in Brat's tenure that you could say the offense was firing on all cylinders.

Dude has had a lot to work with here.

I'm not going to argue about it anymore. If you can't see how stale Brat's offense has become here, then I will leave you to your statistics.[/quote]

:yawn:

[-Dan_Bengals_FL-]

Yeah, the eyes of a fan, who really has no clue what plays are being called, what player's responsibilities on the called play are, outweigh the value of stats.

[T-Dub]

[quote]has Carson ever run a Naked Boot?[/quote]

Yup, against Dallas, I guess that was in '05? He scored.

[GoatGreen]

[quote name='Dan_Bengals_NJ' post='705198' date='Sep 25 2008, 09:45 PM']Yeah, the eyes of a fan, who really has no clue what plays are being called, what player's responsibilities on the called play are, outweigh the value of stats.[/quote]


"Jon Kitna sure was a good QB for the Bengals. I mean, just look at his stats.

And, by this rationale, Brat is an offensive genius. After all...look at all his top 10 offenses!

Nevermind what you saw or think you saw as a fan. Because fans don't have a clue what is really going on."



This is your platform.

Somehow.

[TheBeaverHunter]

I compare Brat to someone like Ron Rivera. He was a product of the talent around him. Do I think Brat is the worst OC in the NFL, NO. Do I think he is top 10, NO. Rivera DC'd one of the best defenses in the NFL, had numerous interviews for HC jobs and was released by the Bears. Now he is a LB coach with the Chargers. I think if Brat were released he would follow the same path, probably end up as a QB coach somewhere. When you have a Probowl MVP as your QB, two probowl WRs. a Probowl RB, and two probowl linemen, it is HARD not to produce a top ten offense. Hopefully this year will be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='TheBeaverHunter' post='705238' date='Sep 26 2008, 07:34 AM']I compare Brat to someone like Ron Rivera. He was a product of the talent around him. Do I think Brat is the worst OC in the NFL, NO. Do I think he is top 10, NO. Rivera DC'd one of the best defenses in the NFL, had numerous interviews for HC jobs and was released by the Bears. Now he is a LB coach with the Chargers. I think if Brat were released he would follow the same path, probably end up as a QB coach somewhere. When you have a Probowl MVP as your QB, two probowl WRs. a Probowl RB, and two probowl linemen, it is HARD not to produce a top ten offense. Hopefully this year will be the straw that breaks the camel's back.[/quote]


I woud be in complete agreement with you if he didnt put together a top 10 O in Seattle as well.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='T-Dub' post='705217' date='Sep 26 2008, 01:05 AM']Yup, against Dallas, I guess that was in '05? He scored.[/quote]

So if it worked...where has it been since?

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Dan_Bengals_NJ' post='705198' date='Sep 25 2008, 10:45 PM']Yeah, the eyes of a fan, who really has no clue what plays are being called, what player's responsibilities on the called play are, [b]outweigh the value of stats.[/b][/quote]

Total yards is an inaccurate way of gauging "how good an offense is"

Prove me wrong

[VonBlade]

I think it's easy.

When are we at our most effective? When Carson is running the two minute drill. /end.

[TheBeaverHunter]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='705241' date='Sep 26 2008, 07:38 AM']I woud be in complete agreement with you if he didnt put together a top 10 O in Seattle as well.[/quote]


I have a couple of problems with this consistent argument.

1. This was 1997 and the only year he did this.

2. They were 9th in scoring offense and 3rd overall and the Bengals were 10th that year.. WITH KEN ANDERSON AS THE OC!

3. 1998, his last year in Seattle, they fell to 10th scoring and 23rd overall. 1996 they were 16th and 19th respectively. There isn't consistency there.

4. He left Seattle and became assistant head coach with the Steelers having no offensive duties. If he was really a genius, don't you think teams would have been all over him?

2008, 11 years since Brat led the Seahawks O. The Bengals are 28th in scoring offense and the Seahawks are 10th.

I am sure he is a nice guy and we could have worse at OC, but I just think he is stale, not innovative, and doesn't utilize our offensive talent. Bob Bratkowski is like the Human Brain, only using 10% and doing nothing with the remaining 90%. In this league if you aren't leading you are following. We have been following way too much with the fire power we have on offense.

*** Total Yards doesn't mean dick if you can't score points. Scoring points should determine an effective offense.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='TheBeaverHunter' post='705271' date='Sep 26 2008, 10:57 AM']I have a couple of problems with this consistent argument.

1. This was 1997 and the only year he did this.

2. They were 9th in scoring offense and 3rd overall and the Bengals were 10th that year.. WITH KEN ANDERSON AS THE OC!

3. 1998, his last year in Seattle, they fell to 10th scoring and 23rd overall. 1996 they were 16th and 19th respectively. There isn't consistency there.

4. He left Seattle and became assistant head coach with the Steelers having no offensive duties. If he was really a genius, don't you think teams would have been all over him?

2008, 11 years since Brat led the Seahawks O. The Bengals are 28th in scoring offense and the Seahawks are 10th.

I am sure he is a nice guy and we could have worse at OC, but I just think he is stale, not innovative, and doesn't utilize our offensive talent. Bob Bratkowski is like the Human Brain, only using 10% and doing nothing with the remaining 90%. In this league if you aren't leading you are following. We have been following way too much with the fire power we have on offense.

*** Total Yards doesn't mean dick if you can't score points. Scoring points should determine an effective offense.[/quote]


Nice post, I'm in agreement.

[GoatGreen]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='705291' date='Sep 26 2008, 10:45 AM']Nice post, I'm in agreement.[/quote]


Same here but wait til the "Brat Pack" reads it...

[VonBlade]

[quote name='TheBeaverHunter' post='705271' date='Sep 26 2008, 03:27 PM']I am sure he is a nice guy and we could have worse at OC[/quote]

I was with you right up to here.

Who on earth could we have that's worse?

A blind man with a needle and a playbook would do better. At least there would be the element of surprise in our play-calling.

[TheBeaverHunter]

[quote name='VonBlade' post='705348' date='Sep 26 2008, 01:28 PM']I was with you right up to here.

Who on earth could we have that's worse?

A blind man with a needle and a playbook would do better. At least there would be the element of surprise in our play-calling.[/quote]


I was being nice.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='TheBeaverHunter' post='705271' date='Sep 26 2008, 10:27 AM']I have a couple of problems with this consistent argument.

1. This was 1997 and the only year he did this.

2. They were 9th in scoring offense and 3rd overall and the Bengals were 10th that year.. WITH KEN ANDERSON AS THE OC!

3. 1998, his last year in Seattle, they fell to 10th scoring and 23rd overall. 1996 they were 16th and 19th respectively. There isn't consistency there.

4. He left Seattle and became assistant head coach with the Steelers having no offensive duties. If he was really a genius, don't you think teams would have been all over him?

2008, 11 years since Brat led the Seahawks O. The Bengals are 28th in scoring offense and the Seahawks are 10th.

I am sure he is a nice guy and we could have worse at OC, but I just think he is stale, not innovative, and doesn't utilize our offensive talent. Bob Bratkowski is like the Human Brain, only using 10% and doing nothing with the remaining 90%. In this league if you aren't leading you are following. We have been following way too much with the fire power we have on offense.

*** Total Yards doesn't mean dick if you can't score points. [b]Scoring points should determine an effective offense.[/b][/quote]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big Bratkowski fan...but we have finished 4th, 8th and 11th in points scored in 05, 06 and 07 respecitvely. Thats not too shabby.

I have more of a problem with his inability to adjust in-game, and predictablity rather than total output. We missed the playoffs the last two years because we can't adjust to teams taking away the deep ball. The run game has to improve which falls on Brat. I know he doesn't call the "lets get blown up and backed into perry behind the line" play, but he has to come up with better blocking schemes as its going on 3 years now that "the line isn't doing its job the way I drew it up." He has to come up with ways to get CJ the ball when teams are stacking a saftey deep and pressing him at the line. No one has answered me yet as to why CJ can't line up in the slot?

Thats why we need a new guy in there...not that we aren't getting good production on the whole from the O, but we're not getting quality production conistantly, we're not creating enough favorable matchups, and we're not able to adjust when things aren't working. A new guy might see a whole new set of skills in our current players that Brat doesn't and a little change could go a long way.