Bailout Bill

[Homer_Rice]

[url="http://rawstory.com/images/other/PPM110_rescuepackage_bill.pdf"]Read it here.[/url]

An awful lot in it now. Still the wrong way to go, imo.

A tidbit that'll boggle minds:

SEC. 122. INCREASE IN STATUTORY LIMIT ON THE PUBLIC DEBT.
Subsection [B] of section 3101 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by striking out the dollar limitation contained in such subsection and inserting ‘‘$11,315,000,000,000’’.

[Chris Henrys Dealer]

It didn't get passed....JEEEEEEBUS.

Well, they're still trying to change some of the votes. right now they're at 207 votes. Need 218

Kiss the stock market goodbye. Brazil down 10%, Asia will be massacred tomorrow. Massacred..

The knock on effect will start soon. Banks are going to tighten up even more now. Defaults are going to ramp up now massive.

[Jamie_B]

Modernize Glass-Steagall then do it.

[sois]

I don't know if it was a good or bad decision, but it was ballsy. This bill was about buying time to come up with something better. I can't believe it didn't pass.

[Chris Henrys Dealer]

There is no time. This will hurt the average citizen way more than the banks who have already restricted credit. the happiest people...probably us on capital markets trading floors, we get way more volatility and better ops to make money, and bonds get better bid.

No sleep till Friday!

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='706655' date='Sep 29 2008, 02:19 PM']Modernize Glass-Steagall then do it.[/quote]

I think Milt Steagal could modernize the Bengals too!!

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' post='706670' date='Sep 29 2008, 01:55 PM']I think Milt Steagal could modernize the Bengals too!!


[/quote]


He'd do a better job than Mike Brown.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Chris Henrys Dealer' post='706648' date='Sep 29 2008, 02:03 PM']It didn't get passed....JEEEEEEBUS.

Well, they're still trying to change some of the votes. right now they're at 207 votes. Need 218

Kiss the stock market goodbye. Brazil down 10%, Asia will be massacred tomorrow. Massacred..

The knock on effect will start soon. Banks are going to tighten up even more now. Defaults are going to ramp up now massive.[/quote]
I feel for ya, CHD, you'll be busting ass again for the near term.
But here's the deal, imo. The problem with Paulson's fronting for the Wall Street elite is that it was premised on reviving declining (and outrageously inflated) housing prices. That is simply not sustainable in light of the fact that the manner in which housing prices were driven skyward was accomplished in large part due to over-leveraging on the part of the buying populace. It sought to perpetuate the debt-burden=wealth nonsense that got us into this mess int he first place.

And if that were not enough, in practice--and part of the implicit intent of the bill, imo--the plan would have allowed the very same robber/speculators who have ruined our economic foundations to raid the cookie jar one last time before it all comes tumbling down. Look at how "financial institution" was defined in the bill. Look at how "troubled institution" was defined in the bill. Consider the fact that implicit in the bill was authority to set aside FASB rule 157; Level 3 assets and off-book accounting is part of what got us into this mess, too.

So, if we are going to truly fix the problem, then let's fix it for all Americans and also those affected world-wide. There are lots of ways to fix liquidity problems without burdening the taxpayer with all the toxic crap that is in the pipeline. You're a bond trader, you know this is possible. What if Congress passed a few credit authorities to actually rebuild transportation and electric infrastructure in this nation? Ditto to convert auto plants into more energy efficient production lines? There are lots of possibilities and many of them include bonding out the credit to accomplish such things. We are going to have to invest in this stuff anyways and it puts people to work. So why hinder our prospects for such investments by taking on burdens which are sinkholes of debt without any real productive economic activity as the result?

Yes, some shareholders are going to get wiped out. Yes, some folks on Wall Street are going to have to seek honest employment as productive members of society. And yes, there will be some very serious problems along the way. You just don't reward the fox for destroying the chicken coop by rebuilding the chicken coop and stocking it up again for that same fox.

Furthermore, there will be a new admin in the very near future. Why force it--whether it be Repub or Dem--to enter office with a noose around it's neck and in handcuffs?

Sorry if this seems a bit harsh. But, fuck it, I've been complaining about this crap for a quarter century and it's about damn time folks woke the poop up! There are no guarentees that we'll come through this okay without the bailout bill. But I can pretty fairly guarentee that were the bill to be passed, we would be in much worse shape. Deleverage, refocus our resources, put people back to work making stuff and earning some decent money, and rebuild this friggin' nation. Who loses in that kind of world? Only the parasites. (No slur towards you as I know many folks in the financial industry who perform valuable and necessary service.) But, really, fuck the vultures. Fuck 'em like they've been fucking the common man for 40 years. No reach-around bailouts, #@%^dammit.

[sois]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='706674' date='Sep 29 2008, 02:05 PM']I feel for ya, CHD, you'll be busting ass again for the near term.
But here's the deal, imo. The problem with Paulson's fronting for the Wall Street elite is that it was premised on reviving declining (and outrageously inflated) housing prices. That is simply not sustainable in light of the fact that the manner in which housing prices were driven skyward was accomplished in large part due to over-leveraging on the part of the buying populace. It sought to perpetuate the debt-burden=wealth nonsense that got us into this mess int he first place.[/quote]

100% correct.

However, how do you drive housing prices down? This bill would have done that? Since it didn't help homeowners, they would still be stuck in the same mess as before. Eventually they would foreclose. Add to that tighter lending practices and home prices start falling.

If you want a more aggressive tactic, banks need to start forgiving some debt. Could banks afford to forgive 25%, for example, of existing mortgages? They would lose a little up front but in the end, they would come out better I think.

[GoatGreen]

[quote name='sois' post='706677' date='Sep 29 2008, 02:14 PM']Could banks afford to forgive 25%, for example, of existing mortgages? They would lose a little up front but in the end, they would come out better I think.[/quote]


You'll see that when you see a proposal that doesn't let the execs keep their golden parachutes.

As in "never."

The only delay here is the politicians are just trying to find away to jack us but still get elected next term. Once they figure out the right way to candy coat this latest 800 billion dollar ass fuck, then they will put the media machine to work and the beat will go on. For a while longer.

[Chris Henrys Dealer]

I usually stay clear out of the dems / republican debate, but this is unbelievable if true....some republicans are coming out saying that they though Pelosi's speech before voting was too partisan, and made people change their votes and vote down the bill. (it's the breaking ticker on CNBC)

How old are these dudes? 5? you're voting on the future of the country and that's what affects your decision?

There isn't a big enough roll eye emoticon on the intraweb.

[GoatGreen]

[quote name='Chris Henrys Dealer' post='706679' date='Sep 29 2008, 02:18 PM']I usually stay clear out of the dems / republican debate, but this is unbelievable if true....some republicans are coming out saying that they though Pelosi's speech before voting was too partisan, and made people change their votes and vote down the bill. (it's the breaking ticker on CNBC)

How old are these dudes? 5? you're voting on the future of the country and that's what affects your decision?

There isn't a big enough roll eye emoticon on the intraweb.[/quote]

Has nothing to do with republicans and democrats. It has everything to do with the have's and the have more's.

Whatever decision comes from it, make no mistake, if you aren't in the have more's club... bend over.

[Chris Henrys Dealer]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='706674' date='Sep 29 2008, 02:05 PM']I feel for ya, CHD, you'll be busting ass again for the near term.
But here's the deal, imo. The problem with Paulson's fronting for the Wall Street elite is that it was premised on reviving declining (and outrageously inflated) housing prices. That is simply not sustainable in light of the fact that the manner in which housing prices were driven skyward was accomplished in large part due to over-leveraging on the part of the buying populace. It sought to perpetuate the debt-burden=wealth nonsense that got us into this mess int he first place.

And if that were not enough, in practice--and part of the implicit intent of the bill, imo--the plan would have allowed the very same robber/speculators who have ruined our economic foundations to raid the cookie jar one last time before it all comes tumbling down. Look at how "financial institution" was defined in the bill. Look at how "troubled institution" was defined in the bill. Consider the fact that implicit in the bill was authority to set aside FASB rule 157; Level 3 assets and off-book accounting is part of what got us into this mess, too.

So, if we are going to truly fix the problem, then let's fix it for all Americans and also those affected world-wide. There are lots of ways to fix liquidity problems without burdening the taxpayer with all the toxic crap that is in the pipeline. You're a bond trader, you know this is possible. What if Congress passed a few credit authorities to actually rebuild transportation and electric infrastructure in this nation? Ditto to convert auto plants into more energy efficient production lines? There are lots of possibilities and many of them include bonding out the credit to accomplish such things. We are going to have to invest in this stuff anyways and it puts people to work. So why hinder our prospects for such investments by taking on burdens which are sinkholes of debt without any real productive economic activity as the result?

Yes, some shareholders are going to get wiped out. Yes, some folks on Wall Street are going to have to seek honest employment as productive members of society. And yes, there will be some very serious problems along the way. You just don't reward the fox for destroying the chicken coop by rebuilding the chicken coop and stocking it up again for that same fox.

Furthermore, there will be a new admin in the very near future. Why force it--whether it be Repub or Dem--to enter office with a noose around it's neck and in handcuffs?

Sorry if this seems a bit harsh. But, fuck it, I've been complaining about this crap for a quarter century and it's about damn time folks woke the poop up! There are no guarentees that we'll come through this okay without the bailout bill. But I can pretty fairly guarentee that were the bill to be passed, we would be in much worse shape. Deleverage, refocus our resources, put people back to work making stuff and earning some decent money, and rebuild this friggin' nation. Who loses in that kind of world? Only the parasites. (No slur towards you as I know many folks in the financial industry who perform valuable and necessary service.) But, really, fuck the vultures. Fuck 'em like they've been fucking the common man for 40 years. No reach-around bailouts, #@%^dammit.[/quote]


All good points and I agree, for the most part. But I do think that in the next little it's the little person who's going to pay the price. I think banks were dirty in the sense that they kept credit tight to try and get this bill passed in the last little while.

All through the interest rate cuts, bank lending hasn't increased. LIBOR is still high as an example.

Now I think banks out there have gotten a handle on their finances to an extent (except the ones stuffing everything into Level III) and they've seen the rock bottom prices they can get for their shit. (refer to New Star purchasing the toxic CDO's from Merrill as an example, 22 cents on the dollar)

I think they chose not to and said, we can exacerbate this situation and get relief from the govt. It didn't come, and as with anything finance related, they will now go the other extreme. You've seen how banks are refusing to fund new restaurant franchises, small to mid business loans will dry up. One guy was just on tv saying he won't be able to make payroll to his car dealership next week because his Line of credit just got suspended.

I saw this bill as a bit of a panacea to get the banks to stand down and try and and get loaning again. Grease the wheels if you will, buy some time, and then see what you could do. restore some semblance of normalcy for the average citizen, and I think that will be gone now. I don't think Wall street will be the only ones hurt, it will trickle down to all areas of the economy.

interesting and diabolical times sir!

[sois]

[quote name='Chris Henrys Dealer' post='706679' date='Sep 29 2008, 02:18 PM']I usually stay clear out of the dems / republican debate, but this is unbelievable if true....some republicans are coming out saying that they though Pelosi's speech before voting was too partisan, and made people change their votes and vote down the bill. (it's the breaking ticker on CNBC)

How old are these dudes? 5? you're voting on the future of the country and that's what affects your decision?

There isn't a big enough roll eye emoticon on the intraweb.[/quote]

I saw that too. Great time to be getting all butt-hurt about everything. How sad. Those guys need to be outed so we can know who the pussies are in congress.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Chris Henrys Dealer' post='706690' date='Sep 29 2008, 03:30 PM']All good points and I agree, for the most part. But I do think that in the next little it's the little person who's going to pay the price. I think banks were dirty in the sense that they kept credit tight to try and get this bill passed in the last little while.

All through the interest rate cuts, bank lending hasn't increased. LIBOR is still high as an example.

Now I think banks out there have gotten a handle on their finances to an extent (except the ones stuffing everything into Level III) and they've seen the rock bottom prices they can get for their shit. (refer to New Star purchasing the toxic CDO's from Merrill as an example, 22 cents on the dollar)

I think they chose not to and said, we can exacerbate this situation and get relief from the govt. It didn't come, and as with anything finance related, they will now go the other extreme. You've seen how banks are refusing to fund new restaurant franchises, small to mid business loans will dry up. One guy was just on tv saying he won't be able to make payroll to his car dealership next week because his Line of credit just got suspended.

I saw this bill as a bit of a panacea to get the banks to stand down and try and and get loaning again. Grease the wheels if you will, buy some time, and then see what you could do. restore some semblance of normalcy for the average citizen, and I think that will be gone now. I don't think Wall street will be the only ones hurt, it will trickle down to all areas of the economy.

interesting and diabolical times sir![/quote]

TED spread high, too. Also, notice what the Fed did with the TAF facility today. You know my opinion, CHD, this system was/is coming down no matter what. The FIRE economy is kaput, it's been a corpse for a while now. Just a matter of recognizing that fact. The longer we wait the worse it'll hurt. To me, it's a question of how we respond. And yes, I know the little guy is going to be taking a hit, but this would be true under either alternative. And, it's precisely due to your apt remarks about the behavior of the bad guys in the financial sector which requires the population to reassert itself and to insist on some form of real economic development. Clearly, the folks who deindustrialized this nation, conned folks into thinking [i]maquiladoras[/i] were a good thing, and did/do everything they can to squeeze the proverbial turnip cannot be relied upon to create a healthy economy. Now, we have to wean the political class off the financial tit and remind them that once upon a time, both parties claimed to represent the common man. Not an easy task, but a worthwhile one.

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='706726' date='Sep 29 2008, 03:30 PM']Now, we have to wean the political class off the financial tit and remind them that once upon a time, both parties claimed to represent the common man. Not an easy task, but a worthwhile one.[/quote]

Vaste programme, en effet!

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='706729' date='Sep 29 2008, 04:40 PM']Vaste programme, en effet![/quote]
Made my day!

[Bean Counter]

That bill was terrible. It had so many add ons it isn't funny.

Suspend the "mark to market" provision of Sarbanes-Oxley and suspend the capital gains tax. Problem solved without raping the tax payer. Of course if we did it that way congress would'nt get to pat itself on the back and spend a bunch of our money on pet projects.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Bean Counter' post='706842' date='Sep 29 2008, 11:01 PM']That bill was terrible. It had so many add ons it isn't funny.

Suspend the "mark to market" provision of Sarbanes-Oxley and suspend the capital gains tax. Problem solved without raping the tax payer. Of course if we did it that way congress would'nt get to pat itself on the back and spend a bunch of our money on pet projects.[/quote]
Universe to Bean Counter: the real world is more important than Enron-style accounting.

[|BlackJesus|]

[center][size=3][quote name='Chris Henrys Dealer' post='706648' date='Sep 29 2008, 02:03 PM']Kiss the stock market goodbye.[/quote]
[img]http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j318/Tredcrow/Guerrilla/ww4.jpg[/img]






[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='706674' date='Sep 29 2008, 03:05 PM']fuck the vultures. Fuck 'em like they've been fucking the common man for 40 years. No reach-around bailouts, #@%dammit.[/quote]
[img]http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j318/Tredcrow/Guerrilla/ww8.jpg[/img]






[quote name='GoatGreen' post='706683' date='Sep 29 2008, 03:25 PM']It has everything to do with the have's and the have more's.[/quote]
[img]http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j318/Tredcrow/Guerrilla/ww2-1.gif[/img]






[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='706864' date='Sep 30 2008, 12:17 AM']Enron-style accounting.[/quote][/size]
[img]http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j318/Tredcrow/Guerrilla/ww7.jpg[/img]

[|BlackJesus|]

[center][img]http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j318/Tredcrow/Guerrilla/ww10.jpg[/img]


[img]http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j318/Tredcrow/Guerrilla/ww5.jpg[/img]


[img]http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j318/Tredcrow/Guerrilla/ww9.jpg[/img][/center]

[|BlackJesus|]

[b][center]The merger of the corporation and the state = [size=3]FASCISM[/size]



[color="#0000FF"]Instead of bailing out Wall Street ...[/color]


[size=3][color="#FF0000"]Burn it Down ![/color][/size]

[/center][/b]

[|BlackJesus|]

[center][/center]

[sois]

So what happens if there is no bailout?

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='sois' post='706936' date='Sep 30 2008, 10:38 AM']So what happens if there is no bailout?[/quote]
System's dead. Either we fix it or we go fascist.