Ben Utecht's gospel rock should be a hit in Cincy's locker room

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='773695' date='May 5 2009, 11:13 PM']Well said, although I hold the belief (thank you, astronomy!) that science and religion need not be mutually exclusive, rather, that they are inexorably intertwined, with neither the greater than the other overall. Sure, science has dispelled some ancient mythology and such, [b]but what it cannot do is replace faith[/b], nor can it define it...because faith can never fit into a rational scientific model.

And once humans master interstellar light speed travel, then I could be convinced to give up my belief. I know that sounds like "once you prove the Earth is round, then..." or "Once you prove that the Earth rotates around the Sun rather than the other way around, then..."

But I believe this to be the ultimate obstacle. It's mathematically impossible that other worlds with life do not exist, ergo, God exists, at least, in my book (which isn't yet written). I simply do not think we can ever solve this cosmic riddle of light-speed travel, therefore, I will cling to my beliefs until proven otherwise (and you can't make me! You athiest bullies!).

At least, um, that's kinda my take. Of course there's always football. Science can't explain our love of that either. So there.[/quote]
Why is faith in the absence of evidence of...anything...a good thing? Because we were told so by our parents or religious figures at a young age? What has faith in something that we can't understand, physically sense, or even verbalize in coherent terms yet claim to [b]know[/b] down to the smallest detail, ever done for human civilizations besides oppress and destroy?

Give hope to people who have had shitty lives? Next time my best friend loses his job I'll be sure to tell him "don't worry you'll win the lottery and it'll all be ok." I am just as validated in saying that as someone else who says "don't worry you'll see your mom in the next life" to their grieving friend. Hell, considering the odds of the winning the lottery are one in a couple million and the odds of what happens after we die are infinite, I'm probably more right.

Its amazing that faith manages to bypass any notion of questioning, then jump right into the realm of pride. All of a sudden we are not going to question something, then stand proud and tall by our lack of questioning. Its admirable to sit tight and regurgitate scripture instead of wondering why these stories were written 80 years after the death of what should be the most influencial person to ever walk the earth. Why was no one moved to write anything during his lifetime. Why were the people who lived and wrote during his lifetime completely un-aware of his existance. Even if they hated him their should be some negative writings about him.

I would argue that when people stop standing by assumptions (faith) and start demanding more tangible reasons for them to believe what anyone is telling them, the intelligence quotent of the whole world will rise instantly.

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='773840' date='May 6 2009, 12:22 PM']A bit of advice, son. Try to be like the scientists you purport to admire and do some unbiased work before you draw some conclusions. Because, as I mentioned before, and reiterate now, it is patently obvious to me that you are woefully ignorant with respect to the field at play, much less competent enough to draw any important conclusions from your current wanderings on it.[/quote]
So you're saying there is nothing theology has brought to the table, gotcha.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='773843' date='May 6 2009, 12:35 PM']So you're saying there is nothing theology has brought to the table, gotcha.[/quote]
No. I said what I said. Even if I were to suggest you read something in particular, like say, Rerum Novarum, you wouldn't be able to comprehend it because of the shallowness of your education in general. That's your problem, not mine.

Let me put it to you this way. What do you think the odds are that your self-admitted inabilty to produce creative progressive rock is related to the fact that you probably don't understand Bach?

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='773849' date='May 6 2009, 12:48 PM']No. I said what I said. Even if I were to suggest you read something in particular, like say, Rerum Novarum, you wouldn't be able to comprehend it because of the shallowness of your education in general. That's your problem, not mine.

Let me put it to you this way. What do you think the odds are that your self-admitted inabilty to produce creative progressive rock is related to the fact that you probably don't understand Bach?[/quote]
I never said it wasn't creative, I actually think its pretty creative just not very good and there are a multitude of reasons why including lack of skills at any instrument other than guitar, less than stellar voice, and lack of proper equipment. I'm not sure what you mean by "understand" Bach, music theory or his message or...?

There has to be an ace in the hole you have that can thoroughly destroy my arguement but you seem reluctant to say it. Or perhaps there is no ace and the only other arguement is "there are other schools of thought." I mean, in simple terms what are the societal benefits of "other epistemolgies?" What are the products? There has to be a few things that have arisen from methodologies beyond the natural realm that you could explain in a few short sentences that have altered the world for the good and are worth my time because frankly the annals of (recent) time are filled with scientific achievements that have advanced mankind and religion that has dragged them down. I understand THAT these schools of thought exist, I just can't find real world examples that demand these schools be taken as seriously as that of empiricism.

[DontPushMe]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='773688' date='May 5 2009, 10:11 PM']Backlash is okay.

The problem is this, though: Some folks don't like being clubbed with the "religion" stick. So they whack back with the "atheist" stick. Except, both sticks come from more or less the same tree. Neither camp (although select individuals within each camp are exceptions) is really willing to look at the real dividing line: what distinguishes a belief system from a more rigorous approach to answering THE primal question:

Why is there something instead of nothing?

Viewed at this way, then both science and theology are different approaches to the same inquiry. They are complementary when honestly considered.

So, when I listen to a so-called atheist, I listen to the proportions in their argument. Just how much of it is dedicated to addressing the primal question and how much of it is in poo-pooing those they perceive as antagonists. Same with the religious kooks. I know, with certainty, that I have benefitted from investigations along both scientific and theological tracks.[/quote]
there is no primal question, we know about how every living species on this planet developed, we know how the planet developed, the solar system developed, the galaxy developed, and the universe developed... there is nothing to question, we can refine the theories, but those theories will be proven wrong around when the moon crashed into the earth for no reason
[quote name='Bunghole' post='773695' date='May 5 2009, 11:13 PM']Well said, although I hold the belief (thank you, astronomy!) that science and religion need not be mutually exclusive, rather, that they are inexorably intertwined, with neither the greater than the other overall. Sure, science has dispelled some ancient mythology and such, but what it cannot do is replace faith, nor can it define it...because faith can never fit into a rational scientific model.

And once humans master interstellar light speed travel, then I could be convinced to give up my belief. I know that sounds like "once you prove the Earth is round, then..." or "Once you prove that the Earth rotates around the Sun rather than the other way around, then..."

But I believe this to be the ultimate obstacle. It's mathematically impossible that other worlds with life do not exist, ergo, God exists, at least, in my book (which isn't yet written). I simply do not think we can ever solve this cosmic riddle of light-speed travel, therefore, I will cling to my beliefs until proven otherwise (and you can't make me! You athiest bullies!).

At least, um, that's kinda my take. Of course there's always football. Science can't explain our love of that either. So there.[/quote]
there is no room for religion in a science lab, it just gets in the way... if there were no religion holding great minds back for the past 2000 years imagine how advanced our technology would be

the speed of light is a universal speed limit, you are never going to go faster than that, im not sure i completely understand your point here but it is feasable to send a probe to alpha centari and get it there in 100 years or so, and its also still possible that there is life in other parts of this solar system... and not just mars, europa is even more likely to have life than mars

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='773849' date='May 6 2009, 12:48 PM']No. I said what I said. Even if I were to suggest you read something in particular, like say, Rerum Novarum, you wouldn't be able to comprehend it because of the shallowness of your education in general. That's your problem, not mine.

Let me put it to you this way. What do you think the odds are that your self-admitted inabilty to produce creative progressive rock is related to the fact that you probably don't understand Bach?[/quote]


The musican in me loves that comparison, and would take it further. If you cant understand Bach, you'll never be able to appreate him and what he brought to this world. If you can't appreate Bach due to your bias for your paticular flavor of music, you'll never broaden your scope of real understanding of music on a much deeper level than just the chords you play.


Same applies here.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='773898' date='May 6 2009, 01:42 PM']The musican in me loves that comparison, and would take it further. If you cant understand Bach, you'll never be able to appreate him and what he brought to this world. If you can't appreate Bach due to your bias for your paticular flavor of music, you'll never broaden your scope of real understanding of music on a much deeper level than just the chords you play.


Same applies here.[/quote]


And some of us can and do appreciate all types of music, from Bach to Shostakovitch to Schoenberg, but there are some forms of expression that are lumped in with them that shouldn't be. Take rap for example.


Music in its bare essence is the building and release of tension, whereas rap is a static point from beginning to end. Therefore, I do not consider it music...

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='773898' date='May 6 2009, 01:42 PM']The musican in me loves that comparison, and would take it further. If you cant understand Bach, you'll never be able to appreate him and what he brought to this world. If you can't appreate Bach due to your bias for your paticular flavor of music, you'll never broaden your scope of real understanding of music on a much deeper level than just the chords you play.


Same applies here.[/quote]
Listen to Bach while on Mushrooms...now we're talking deeper levels!

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Elflocko' post='773902' date='May 6 2009, 01:58 PM']And some of us can and do appreciate all types of music, from Bach to Shostakovitch to Schoenberg, but there are some forms of expression that are lumped in with them that shouldn't be. Take rap for example.


Music in its bare essence is the building and release of tension, whereas rap is a static point from beginning to end. Therefore, I do not consider it music...[/quote]
Rythym is music too! I feel like your definition is too strict. Lyrical phrasing is a very important part of music as well. Rap typically lacks melodies as well as harmonies and time change is few and far between but its still music.

Though I do gravitate towards music like you described, that moves and shifts during the piece, bringing you into and through an experience and not just a song.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='773909' date='May 6 2009, 02:04 PM']Rythym is music too! I feel like your definition is too strict. Lyrical phrasing is a very important part of music as well. Rap typically lacks melodies as well as harmonies and time change is few and far between but its still music.

Though I do gravitate towards music like you described, that moves and shifts during the piece, bringing you into and through an experience and not just a song.[/quote]


Rhythm certainly can be, but it needs to posses that building and release of tension.

Ever seen Stomp? It's a bunch of percussionists hammering away on stage with brooms, trashcans, sticks, bricks, garden weasels, and random articles stolen from Fremont Street homeless people. Yet it is still very musical as they build and release tension throughout the show.

Rap lacks that.

And for the record, I got that definition from Harvey Phillips, one of the greatest Tubists and brass pedagogues of the 20th century...

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Elflocko' post='773902' date='May 6 2009, 01:58 PM']And some of us can and do appreciate all types of music, from Bach to Shostakovitch to Schoenberg, but there are some forms of expression that are lumped in with them that shouldn't be. Take rap for example.


Music in its bare essence is the building and release of tension, whereas rap is a static point from beginning to end. Therefore, I do not consider it music...[/quote]


I'm a music snob, I dont consider anything that cant be put on a sheet of music to be played by musicans music, and dont condider people who cant read said music musicans.

They are entertainers, but there is a place for that too.


[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='773904' date='May 6 2009, 01:59 PM']Listen to Bach while on Mushrooms...now we're talking deeper levels![/quote]

LOL. Never really did drugs, however spent many a days with guys that did E, I could tell you some funny stories thats for sure.

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='773909' date='May 6 2009, 02:04 PM']Rythym is music too! I feel like your definition is too strict. Lyrical phrasing is a very important part of music as well. Rap typically lacks melodies as well as harmonies and time change is few and far between but its still music.

Though I do gravitate towards music like you described, that moves and shifts during the piece, bringing you into and through an experience and not just a song.[/quote]


A few years ago, my father and I were working on finishing my basement, I had put some speakers in my celing and put on some disturbed when we were working, now not all of their stuff, but their believe album (and david has some interesting take on the topic were discussing if you want to delve into that), has that kind of musical progressions that you can tell then have a better understanding of music than most. My father who doesnt always care for that kind of music, commented on it and was impressed by it.

Although if they cant put it down on paper and read it, they arent musicans.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='773919' date='May 6 2009, 02:14 PM']LOL. Never really did drugs, however spent many a days with guys that did E, I could tell you some funny stories thats for sure.[/quote]

Mushrooms = not good for accomplishing things in your life, but do have the power to make music and art take on entirely new meanings for 6 hours at a time.


[quote name='Jamie_B' post='773919' date='May 6 2009, 02:14 PM']A few years ago, my father and I were working on finishing my basement, I had put some speakers in my celing and put on some disturbed when we were working, now not all of their stuff, but their believe album (and david has some interesting take on the topic were discussing if you want to delve into that), has that kind of musical progressions that you can tell then have a better understanding of music than most. My father who doesnt always care for that kind of music, commented on it and was impressed by it.

Although if they cant put it down on paper and read it, they arent musicans. [/quote]
I gotcha. Sad to report that I'm not a musician. My music theory is horrible but I do have an understanding of how to take a song through different emotions. See with guitar, they ruined it years ago when they developed Tabliture. I picked up a guitar as a child, spent a couple weeks learning music theory out of an old Mel Bay book then discovered tabliture. I was able to improve so much faster by learning tabs (my goal at that point was to emulate my favorite artists and not to understand music). I missed out on [u]why[/u] one certain scale works over one certain chord progression (have since learned, but couldn't begin to write out the circle of 5ths now) though I feel that i've always had a deeper connection with music. I've always wanted to hear music that started in one place and ends in another. Music that has complex patterns which don't need to be repeated verse-chorus-verse-chorus.

Disturbed is one of the few radio-friendly metal bands that I enjoy because of the very reason you stated. Though I feel like they could take their musicianship further if they stopped writing radio-friendly songs...but everyone's gotta make a buck. I loved their first album.

[Jamie_B]

Mel Bay, thats a name I never expected to hear in these parts.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='773945' date='May 6 2009, 02:48 PM']Mel Bay, thats a name I never expected to hear in these parts. [/quote]


That's old school, yo....

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='773945' date='May 6 2009, 02:48 PM']Mel Bay, thats a name I never expected to hear in these parts. [/quote]


[quote name='Elflocko' post='773946' date='May 6 2009, 02:49 PM']That's old school, yo....[/quote]

[b]E[/b]very
[b]G[/b]ood
[b]B[/b]oy
[b]D[/b]oes
[b]F[/b]ine

[/music theory knowledge]

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='773956' date='May 6 2009, 03:05 PM'][b]E[/b]very
[b]G[/b]ood
[b]B[/b]oy
[b]D[/b]oes
[b]F[/b]ine

[/music theory knowledge][/quote]


That doesn't do you a damn bit of good when you're playing the Euphonium part in Movement 4 of Pictures at an Exhibition and there's 5 fucking sharps...

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Elflocko' post='773958' date='May 6 2009, 03:09 PM']That doesn't do you a damn bit of good when you're playing the Euphonium part in Movement 4 of Pictures at an Exhibition and there's 5 fucking sharps... [/quote]
What do you play?

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='773964' date='May 6 2009, 03:22 PM']What do you play?[/quote]


My principle instrument was the Euphonium, but I also studied tenor and bass trombone, as well as Bb, Eb, and F tuba.


Then I discovered that trying to make a living in music generally leads to starvation and won't help you get laid unless you play the guitar. So I went back to school and got a degree in Information Systems...

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='773956' date='May 6 2009, 03:05 PM'][b]E[/b]very
[b]G[/b]ood
[b]B[/b]oy
[b]D[/b]oes
[b]F[/b]ine

[/music theory knowledge][/quote]




This thread has taken a odd turn. My theory knowledge used to be decent, but its been years since I studied it and mostly now only play off the sheet music. Im sure my lesson teacher will eventually get me back into it. I do know my ciricle of 5ths since thats how we've been relearning my scales.

[quote name='Elflocko' post='773958' date='May 6 2009, 03:09 PM']That doesn't do you a damn bit of good when you're playing the Euphonium part in Movement 4 of Pictures at an Exhibition and there's 5 fucking sharps... [/quote]

When I first started playing again in church the amount of sharps they play thew me as I hadnt played in 8 years prior to that, and they were doing 4 to 5 sharps like it was nothing, since Im pretty compatant in my sharps, and when we get above 4 flats I have to start thinking about it.

Oh and I did Euphoniam for a year in high school (played it in concert and trumpet in syphonic), even got to preform in the atrium of the kennedy center for the tuba christmas that they do annually.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Elflocko' post='773966' date='May 6 2009, 03:25 PM']My principle instrument was the [b]Euphonium[/b], but I also studied tenor and bass trombone, as well as Bb, Eb, and F tuba.


Then I discovered that trying to make a living in music generally leads to starvation and won't help you get laid unless you play the guitar. So I went back to school and got a degree in Information Systems...[/quote]
I have never heard of that before! Nor did I know tuba's come in different keys!

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Elflocko' post='773966' date='May 6 2009, 03:25 PM']My principle instrument was the Euphonium, but I also studied tenor and bass trombone, as well as Bb, Eb, and F tuba.


Then I discovered that trying to make a living in music generally leads to starvation and won't help you get laid unless you play the guitar. So I went back to school and got a degree in Information Systems...[/quote]


Yeah you cant get paid squat unless your the top of your game (i heard marsalis makes 850K a year running jazz at lincoln center, and thats just that sallary, doesnt include his recordings or preformances outside of LC).

I am getting paid for this musical Im doing though (200 bucks for the whole 8 preformance) so you can make money in local theater (though not enough to survive off of) and being that the guys are normally all gay, it ups your chances with the women. Of course actresses are usually too much drama to deal with for me.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='773976' date='May 6 2009, 03:49 PM']Yeah you cant get paid squat unless your the top of your game (i heard marsalis makes 850K a year running jazz at lincoln center, and thats just that sallary, doesnt include his recordings or preformances outside of LC).

I am getting paid for this musical Im doing though (200 bucks for the whole 8 preformance) so you can make money in local theater (though not enough to survive off of) and being that the guys are normally all gay, it ups your chances with the women. [b]Of course actresses are usually too much drama to deal with for me.[/b][/quote]


That's why you go for the chicks in the flute section.

They're always sluts (ducks shoe thrown at head by wife)...

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Elflocko' post='773979' date='May 6 2009, 03:59 PM']That's why you go for the chicks in the flute section.

They're always sluts (ducks shoe thrown at head by wife)...[/quote]