Willie Anderson has retired

[Jason]

[quote name='WhoDeyBabe' post='776032' date='May 13 2009, 07:50 PM']Yeah, screw him and that bastard Anthony Munoz who signed with Tampa after leaving the bengals. I hope we never retire that jerk's #78!

My goodness, are all cincinnati fans a$$holes?[/quote]

Anthony never actually played for Tampa. He retired BEFORE that season, not after it.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='scharm' post='776123' date='May 14 2009, 08:26 AM']If that's what you need to make you feel better about the ass whoopin go ahead. What's been the excuse for the other games?

Brat hasn't gotten his team into the endzone against the Ravens the last 3 times they've played. 0 TDs.

Yep, Rex Ryan needed Willie. They haven't adjusted to the Ravens D since 2005.[/quote]


The Bengals are 5-3 against the Ravens since 2005.
And that took the Bengals going 0-2 against them
in 2008. And Fitz was QBing one of them.

So what "other games"? You mean one that they won?
And one that Fitz played in?

And they might have not scored a TD the past 3 games,
but they kicked 7 FGs on them in one game (and won),
and in the game in question, Carson had the
lowest QB rating of his career. I guess you think
that is just a coincidence? I don't.

[mongo]

[quote name='scharm' post='776123' date='May 14 2009, 09:26 AM']If that's what you need to make you feel better about the ass whoopin go ahead. What's been the excuse for the other games?[/quote]

What other games? Do you mean THE game against Ryan Fitzpatrick, THE one game we lost to them in 2006, or Carson's first game against them as a starter in 2004? Because we smoked them in 6 of 7 meetings leading up to Willie being a punk.

[quote]Brat hasn't gotten his team into the endzone against the Ravens the last 3 times they've played. 0 TDs.[/quote]

1. I stand by Willie screwing us in the first meeting.
2. Did you expect Ryan Fitzpatrick to generate TDs?
3. What was the score of the third meeting? Was it 21 to 7? Did we beat them by 14 points? Did we grind them with over 300 yards of offense? Did we posses the ball for over 35 minutes of the game? Did we have seven sustained drives, and only two 3 and out series against them? Who cares if we didn't score a TD in that game? We beat them like a drum.

[quote]Yep, Rex Ryan needed Willie. They haven't adjusted to the Ravens D since 2005.[/quote]

Again. Leading up the Willie game, we swept them in 2005, split with them in 2006, then swept them again in 2007. The Ravens haven't done dick to us with Carson under center since September of 2004 (when we lost, but Carson still put up 300+ yards passing against a Ravens defense totally in its prime)... Rex Ryan can't beat Carson, and you seem to be the only person who doesn't know it.

[oldschooler]

Ravens say good-bye to one former Bengal (Willie)
and hello to another former Bengal (Kelley Washington)



[url="http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/football/bal-sp.ravens14may14,0,2511315.story"]http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/footbal...0,2511315.story[/url]

[Palmer9]

All this bitterness over the Ravens games makes me scratch my head. Some of you are way too emotionally involved.

If you left your current job & went to a competitor, would you not bring the knowledge with you that you've obtained by working with your former employer? It's not like Willie Anderson had a non-compete agreement. So, the Ravens are having a meeting asking Willie what he knows & he's supposed to say "Sorry guys, but even though you're paying me millions of dollars I'm not going to answer your questions.". Give me a break. If you worked for Ford, got fired, then GM hired you for millions of dollars you'd spill your guts! And rightfully so.

Seems like a lot of you don't want to understand that the NFL is a business for the players & that (most) players loyalties don't run any deeper than the average person's would. I guess for some that it's tough to see when you're a fan(atic). If a company was paying me millions of $ I would gladly answer any question they wanted about anything & so would you. Particularly after you/I was just fired.

Was Willie Anderson a locker room cancer? I don't know because I wasn't in the locker room. I don't remember hearing or reading anything about that at all but could also imagine him being bitter. He a leftover from what I refer to as the "old guard" Bengals teams that never really achieved anything but embarrassment. But as an individual he was a really great player for the team when healthy & gave what he could when not healthy. Why hate him? Because you think he turned on you personally? His old teammates? He didn't turn on anyone. He was loyal to the team that was paying him... just like anyone else would & should be.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Palmer9' post='776137' date='May 14 2009, 09:23 AM']All this bitterness over the Ravens games makes me scratch my head. Some of you are way too emotionally involved.

If you left your current job & went to a competitor, would you not bring the knowledge with you that you've obtained by working with your former employer? It's not like Willie Anderson had a non-compete agreement. So, the Ravens are having a meeting asking Willie what he knows & he's supposed to say "Sorry guys, but even though you're paying me millions of dollars I'm not going to answer your questions.". Give me a break. If you worked for Ford, got fired, then GM hired you for millions of dollars you'd spill your guts! And rightfully so.

Seems like a lot of you don't want to understand that the NFL is a business for the players & that (most) players loyalties don't run any deeper than the average person's would. I guess for some that it's tough to see when you're a fan(atic). If a company was paying me millions of $ I would gladly answer any question they wanted about anything & so would you. Particularly after you/I was just fired.

Was Willie Anderson a locker room cancer? I don't know because I wasn't in the locker room. I don't remember hearing or reading anything about that at all but could also imagine him being bitter. He a leftover from what I refer to as the "old guard" Bengals teams that never really achieved anything but embarrassment. But as an individual he was a really great player for the team when healthy & gave what he could when not healthy. Why hate him? Because you think he turned on you personally? His old teammates? He didn't turn on anyone. He was loyal to the team that was paying him... just like anyone else would & should be.[/quote]


It seems to me that you think fans, and people that spend their
money to fuel the business part of it, should just shrug their
shoulders over a former player not taking a pay cut for the
team we are a fan of, and watching him take that same pay
cut for a rival. And also helping that rival with our plays and
such, while he stands on the sideline.

Maybe you're not emotionally invloved enough?

And after the Bengals extended Willie, he shifted it into low gear.
He felt entitled. He didn't think he should have to practice.
He didn't feel like he should have to compete for a job.
He bitched and whined about it all the time in the lockeroom.
He also didn't feel like he should have to workout, show up
to OTAs, or anything else. He thought he should be able
to show up on Sunday, and that's it.

[mongo]

[quote name='Palmer9' post='776137' date='May 14 2009, 10:23 AM']All this bitterness over the Ravens games makes me scratch my head. Some of you are way too emotionally involved.

If you left your current job & went to a competitor, would you not bring the knowledge with you that you've obtained by working with your former employer? It's not like Willie Anderson had a non-compete agreement. So, the Ravens are having a meeting asking Willie what he knows & he's supposed to say "Sorry guys, but even though you're paying me millions of dollars I'm not going to answer your questions.". Give me a break. If you worked for Ford, got fired, then GM hired you for millions of dollars you'd spill your guts! And rightfully so.

Seems like a lot of you don't want to understand that the NFL is a business for the players & that (most) players loyalties don't run any deeper than the average person's would. I guess for some that it's tough to see when you're a fan(atic). If a company was paying me millions of $ I would gladly answer any question they wanted about anything & so would you. Particularly after you/I was just fired.

Was Willie Anderson a locker room cancer? I don't know because I wasn't in the locker room. I don't remember hearing or reading anything about that at all but could also imagine him being bitter. He a leftover from what I refer to as the "old guard" Bengals teams that never really achieved anything but embarrassment. But as an individual he was a really great player for the team when healthy & gave what he could when not healthy. Why hate him? Because you think he turned on you personally? His old teammates? He didn't turn on anyone. He was loyal to the team that was paying him... just like anyone else would & should be.[/quote]


A few thoughts:

1. Football is a business for players, but not for fans. If it was a business for fans too, no one here would hate a division rival, or buy the jersey of a specific player.

2. Ford and GM job analogies just don't work. There is no competition between the two that the average person cares about, no playoffs, no employees of note, no game.

3. I don't want Willie to burn in Hell. I don't think old does either. We simply don't want him treated as a die-hard Bengal because he wasn't.



Life, and sports, are choices. Choices come with consequences. Was it illegal for Willie to sign with a division rival? Was it illegal for Willie to shun the Bengals money, but to accept the same money from Baltimore? Was it illegal for Willie to give away signals, and spend the game huddled with the defensive coaches? No, but those weren't the acts of someone I want resigned so he can retire as a Bengal either.

[scharm]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='776129' date='May 14 2009, 09:50 AM']The Bengals are 5-3 against the Ravens since 2005.
And that took the Bengals going 0-2 against them
in 2008. And Fitz was QBing one of them.

So what "other games"? You mean one that they won?
And one that Fitz played in?

And they might have not scored a TD the past 3 games,
but they kicked 7 FGs on them in one game (and won),
and in the game in question, Carson had the
lowest QB rating of his career. I guess you think
that is just a coincidence? I don't.[/quote]

You are confused. The offense has been struggling against the Ravens D since 2006. Not even addressing the won/loss record.

If they don't get TOs setting up easy score Brat's unit isn't moving the ball against them. Thus, I think it is silly claiming Willie provided that much insight. They've been shutting the offense down and keeping them out of the endzone prior and after Willie joining the team.

I don't think it coincidence Carson had a low QB rating, I think that defense is better than our offense no matter what former Bengal is on the sideline.

[Palmer9]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='776138' date='May 14 2009, 10:29 AM']It seems to me that you think fans, and people that spend their
money to fuel the business part of it, should just shrug their
shoulders over a former player not taking a pay cut for the
team we are a fan of, and watching him take that same pay
cut for a rival. And also helping that rival with our plays and
such, while he stands on the sideline.

Maybe you're not emotionally invloved enough?

And after the Bengals extended Willie, he shifted it into low gear.
He felt entitled. He didn't think he should have to practice.
He didn't feel like he should have to compete for a job.
He bitched and whined about it all the time in the lockeroom.
He also didn't feel like he should have to workout, show up
to OTAs, or anything else. He thought he should be able
to show up on Sunday, and that's it.[/quote]


You brought up two seperate points & I'll adress them that way.

[b]1st....[/b] Willie Anderson became a Baltimore Raven & therefore, I didn't want him to do well because it effected the Bengals. Just because I spend my money on (we'll use cars again because everyone can relate) Ford doesn't mean that I should expect their lead engineer to take a paycut to stay there & not go to GM. Which is essentially what you're saying, right? Stay with the Bengals, Willie, because the fans spent money. Well, you're spending money on the next tackle that came in, right? So WTF is the player supposed to do? He's not a fan 1st, he's an independant contractor/employee.

LOL @ "OUR PLAYS". They're the Bengals plays. You or I have no part in them & this shows how personally wrapped up in this you are, which is good - to a point (we all say stuff like that). I think that's part of being a fan, but fans become so enchanted to the point they can't see the business side of things for teams or players.

In today's NFL players come & go very quickly. To get emotionally involved with them to the point of feeling loyalty is bad news & a battle you'll never succeed at because players leave teams all the time. Accept that players are hired guns that come & go to (usually) the highest bidder. If you like a player & think he's a great talent, fine, root for him & say he's a great talent regardless of what team he's on.

The Bengals team on the other hand is a different story. I get attached to the team every year & for THAT year. You can usually plan on the team being there. Also, you realize we're rooting for the Bengals, right? If I lived & died by their won/loss record I'd have been burried years ago. If the team wins big, great! If they lose big, that's fine too. I'll have fun with the football season either way. Nothing's more entertaining than digging up old drafts of years past with some Browns fans & comparring who's picks were worse. As a Bengals fan I've had to learn to find fun in all things, not just the teams & it's players successes.

[b]2nd....[/b] Willie shifted into injury, worn down, beat up gear after the 2006/'07 seasons. He shouldn't have been extended based on his chronic injuries & inconsistant practice habits, but I can see where the FO was torn about it. He wasn't mister OTA to begin with (obviously no big deal because he was a great player for the Bengals). Remember him pimping his FatBurger franchises in the offseason? The Bengals FO made a poor choice. The end. The FO has since moved on & brought in new talent which is hopefully the begining.... of this year & the next couple more.

[JC]

We should bring Willie out at halftime and honor him with a big fatburger..

[oldschooler]

[quote name='scharm' post='776155' date='May 14 2009, 09:58 AM']You are confused. The offense has been struggling against the Ravens D since 2006. Not even addressing the won/loss record.

If they don't get TOs setting up easy score Brat's unit isn't moving the ball against them. Thus, I think it is silly claiming Willie provided that much insight. They've been shutting the offense down and keeping them out of the endzone prior and after Willie joining the team.

I don't think it coincidence Carson had a low QB rating, I think that defense is better than our offense no matter what former Bengal is on the sideline.[/quote]


I am not confused by anything.


In 2006 and 2007, The Bengals scored 20 points or more
on that Ravens Defense, and won 3 out of the 4 games.


Also, in 3 of those 4 games, Carson had QB ratings of 91.7
or better. Then in the game against Willie, they scored the
lowest amount of points they ever had against the Ravens,
with Carson as the QB (10) and Carson had a QB rating of
32.3, while also only completing 37.5% of his passes.

[Palmer9]

[quote name='mongo' post='776148' date='May 14 2009, 10:50 AM']A few thoughts:

1. Football is a business for players, but not for fans. If it was a business for fans too, no one here would hate a division rival, or buy the jersey of a specific player.

2. Ford and GM job analogies just don't work. There is no competition between the two that the average person cares about, no playoffs, no employees of note, no game.

3. I don't want Willie to burn in Hell. I don't think old does either. We simply don't want him treated as a die-hard Bengal because he wasn't.



Life, and sports, are choices. Choices come with consequences. Was it illegal for Willie to sign with a division rival? Was it illegal for Willie to shun the Bengals money, but to accept the same money from Baltimore? Was it illegal for Willie to give away signals, and spend the game huddled with the defensive coaches? No, but those weren't the acts of someone I want resigned so he can retire as a Bengal either.[/quote]

To answer (very good points you brought up & I'd like to clarify myself)....

1. I totally understand. However, being a fan shouldn't hamper one's ability to view the player's business side of the situation, which was what I was trying to convey.

2. The NFL is an interesting case if business because of the ideas of loyalties/money/short carrer spans,/etc., & you're right about there not being a very humanizing example for most people. I chose the GM - Ford route because those [b]are[/b] two competitors that some people have strong feelings about & could possibly relate to. Game or not, playoffs or not, the players play for money. It's business. Just like Ford & GM? No. But it's like any other person switching from one company to a rival company. There's no difference from the player side of it & Willie Anderson is a great example of that.

3. There aren't too many die hard ex-Bengals out there, friend, & I agree with you that Willie isn't one of them (unless he comes out & talks about it or something). Especially comming from the modern era of football, players that are life-time guys just aren't too common. There aren't many die hard ex-players out there for any team. I don't think the Benals should sign him up for a day so he can retire a Bengal. Not at all. But that has nothing to do with Willie going to the Ravens. Could they give him a job if he ever wanted into the business side of football? Sure, maybe that would be a nice thing to look at in the future, but who knows (or really even cares at this point)? I just don't get all of the nasty things said about Willie & the lack of realization that the NFL is a business even for our heroes.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='JC' post='776164' date='May 14 2009, 11:09 AM']We should bring Willie out at halftime and honor him with a big fatburger..[/quote]


Ok that is funny.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Palmer9' post='776163' date='May 14 2009, 10:08 AM']You brought up two seperate points & I'll adress them that way.

[b]1st....[/b] Willie Anderson became a Baltimore Raven & therefore, I didn't want him to do well because it effected the Bengals. Just because I spend my money on (we'll use cars again because everyone can relate) Ford doesn't mean that I should expect their lead engineer to take a paycut to stay there & not go to GM. Which is essentially what you're saying, right? Stay with the Bengals, Willie, because the fans spent money. Well, you're spending money on the next tackle that came in, right? So WTF is the player supposed to do? He's not a fan 1st, he's an independant contractor/employee.[/quote]



Like mongo said, the cars analogy isn't a good one.

Passion and emotion fuel sports. The same can not be said of cars, or business.
I am not a fan of the business side of sports, or cars for that matter. And
what engineer has reporters following them around after being fired and shit?

And Willie wouldn't take a pay cut for the team that drafted him, helped develop
him, made him a millionaire, but he did for a division rival.

He could have went to the Chargers or Bucs. Warm weather places, that
had teams that at least appeared to be better contenders at the time.
Instead, he chose a division rival.

[quote]LOL @ "OUR PLAYS". They're the Bengals plays. You or I have no part in them & this shows how personally wrapped up in this you are, which is good - to a point (we all say stuff like that). I think that's part of being a fan, but fans become so enchanted to the point they can't see the business side of things for teams or players.[/quote]

Just like fans say "this is Our house". Or call the place their team plays "home".

Is it really their house, or home? Of course not. You knew what I meant.

And I see the business side of it. That doesn't mean what is business to
a player or the team, is something that I have to like or accept.
This isn't a business to me.

[quote]In today's NFL players come & go very quickly. To get emotionally involved with them to the point of feeling loyalty is bad news & a battle you'll never succeed at because players leave teams all the time. Accept that players are hired guns that come & go to (usually) the highest bidder. If you like a player & think he's a great talent, fine, root for him & say he's a great talent regardless of what team he's on.[/quote]

Players come and go, but the stripes are forever.
Either they play for the Bengals, or they are the enemy.



[quote]The Bengals team on the other hand is a different story. I get attached to the team every year & for THAT year. You can usually plan on the team being there. Also, you realize we're rooting for the Bengals, right? If I lived & died by their won/loss record I'd have been burried years ago. If the team wins big, great! If they lose big, that's fine too. I'll have fun with the football season either way. Nothing's more entertaining than digging up old drafts of years past with some Browns fans & comparring who's picks were worse. As a Bengals fan I've had to learn to find fun in all things, not just the teams & it's players successes.[/quote]


I really don't see what this has to do with a damn thing.
I think you just like seeing your typed words.

[quote][b]2nd....[/b] Willie shifted into injury, worn down, beat up gear after the 2006/'07 seasons. He shouldn't have been extended based on his chronic injuries & inconsistant practice habits, but I can see where the FO was torn about it. He wasn't mister OTA to begin with (obviously no big deal because he was a great player for the Bengals). Remember him pimping his FatBurger franchises in the offseason? The Bengals FO made a poor choice. The end. The FO has since moved on & brought in new talent which is hopefully the begining.... of this year & the next couple more.[/quote]


Willie had been to 3 straight Pro Bowls, been named to 2 straight All-Pro teams
and had played in 96 straight games. He used injury as an excuse not to workout
and practice. And ironically, it made him injury prone. He let his body, which was
his biggest asset go, and was severly out of shape. To pin that on the FO as a bad
decision is not fair.

[mongo]

[quote name='scharm' post='776155' date='May 14 2009, 10:58 AM']You are confused. The offense has been struggling against the Ravens D since 2006. Not even addressing the won/loss record.

If they don't get TOs setting up easy score Brat's unit isn't moving the ball against them. Thus, I think it is silly claiming Willie provided that much insight. They've been shutting the offense down and keeping them out of the endzone prior and after Willie joining the team.

I don't think it coincidence Carson had a low QB rating, I think that defense is better than our offense no matter what former Bengal is on the sideline.[/quote]

Since Carson's been under center, the Bengals have averaged over 22 points per game against the Ravens defense. Beating them 6 of 8 meetings leading up to 2008 is real, and not some phantom stat that can be dismissed. The 48 points we scored on them in 2007 is real too. Those 10 points we scored were the fewest we've put up against the Ravens since Carson's first game against a Rex Ryan defense.

You may still believe Willie had nothing to do with it, but none of the data I look at supports you, and nothing backs you up enough to have been so smarmy with your initial replies. We beat the Ravens a Hell of a lot more than we lose to them, and put up the points on their defense in the process. Then comes opening day of 2008 and poof?




...Jeez. Even under Kitna, we put up 50 on them in the 2002 games, and 47 in the 2003 games... I don't know where you get this notion Brat is some sort of bumbling fool against the Ravens elite defense. (I don't think Brat is a God by any means, but he has a good record of getting the best of the Ravens defense)

[Jamie_B]

Oh and thanks willie for your service.

If you wanted to go to a team that had a better shot at the playoffs than we did last year I aint mad at ya.

[Palmer9]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='776173' date='May 14 2009, 11:31 AM']Like mongo said, the cars analogy isn't a good one.

Passion and emotion fuel sports. The same can not be said of cars, or business.
I am not a fan of the business side of sports, or cars for that matter. And
what engineer has reporters following them around after being fired and shit?

[b]What does this matter to the point of sports being a business for the players? A reporter writes what Willie Anderson does with his contract situation & that means it’s different than you or I switching companies? No. It's about the same. You're right, emotions fuel sports. for the players... when they're playing, not signing new deals. I'm sorry if you don't like something that's real & doesn't conform to your make believe desires & visions.[/b]

And Willie wouldn't take a pay cut for the team that drafted him, helped develop
him, made him a millionaire, but he did for a division rival.

[b]Who gives a f%#* & what gives you the right to ask another person to take less money for your enjoyment? Other than the money, you don't know s*@# about the deal or his choice to go there. It's a good thing you just copy & paste news articles & don't write them.[/b]

He could have went to the Chargers or Bucs. Warm weather places, that
had teams that at least appeared to be better contenders at the time.
Instead, he chose a division rival.

[b]Were the Chargers or Bucs in their conference championship to go to the Superbowl? Appeared to be better contenders to who? The writers who's articles you copy & paste or you, the emotionally involved super fan? He was a free agent & chose to go where he wanted to go & was obviously right, because they went to the playoffs & nearly a Superbowl.[/b]


Just like fans say "this is Our house". Or call the place their team plays "home".
Is it really their house, or home? Of course not. You knew what I meant.

[b]Like I said, sometimes it's a healthy thing to say "our" or "we". But, not when it makes you dillusional.[/b]

And I see the business side of it. That doesn't mean what is business to
a player or the team, is something that I have to like or accept.
This isn't a business to me.


[b]Nobody, particularly the players, gives a piss in the wind about what you personally like or accept. At least not enough to keep them from signing with the Ravens. Nor does what you like or accept change the realities of the business of sports. Some people choose to accept reality they cannot change & you, obviously, skip through it by picking what to acknowledge & what not to. You sound like a little whiney kid.[/b]


Players come and go, but the stripes are forever.
Either they play for the Bengals, or they are the enemy.

[b]Uhhhh, dork much? "The Enemy"? Really? Do you get drunk & fight fans from other teams? Are you THAT guy? Stripes are forever? WTF does that mean to anyone other than a delusional super fan. It doesn't seem to be a reality that many players share with you.[/b]



I really don't see what this has to do with a damn thing.
I think you just like seeing your typed words.

[b]You questioned if I wasn't emotionally involved enough. YOU DID. Don’t remember? To quote you, quoting me: "Maybe you're not emotionally involved enough". I answered explaining myself. Learn to remember what you typed or use the scroll bar.[/b]


Willie had been to 3 straight Pro Bowls, been named to 2 straight All-Pro teams
and had played in 96 straight games. He used injury as an excuse not to workout
and practice. And ironically, it made him injury prone. He let his body, which was
his biggest asset go, and was severly out of shape. To pin that on the FO as a bad
decision is not fair.

[b]Again, you're pretending to know something that's not documented as far as him not wanting to practice or work out vs. being physically able to. Willie hadn't been referred to as lazy & his "out of shape body" was what they said about him coming out of college. He's always had that. He also developed a chronic injury that was a concern before they resigned him. It was obviously a bad decision, one of many over the years. The FO decided to be loyal to the player instead of confront the reality that he was starting to break down.

Seriously, try to take emotion & your personal feelings out of what you're saying instead of thinking that players should feel the same way you do as a fan, because they don't. Doesn't mean you have to love him for switching teams, but to show a complete lack of understanding due to personal issues is just choosing to be ignorant.[/b][/quote]

[sparky151]

Signing Willie Anderson to a one day contract would be a nice touch. The Ravens currently have his rights and would have to release him first.

The bitching about him giving away our plays is hilarious. Every year teams make cuts before the first week of the season. It's not unusual for a team to pick up a player from their week 1 opponent and pump him for info. The Ravens also did it with Nate Lawrie for that game. They then cut him and the Bengals re-signed him. If the Bengals offense sputters to a stop because our opponent signed Anderson and Lawrie, then it wasn't going anywhere anyway. We saw that in preseason last year when the ones were in. Hell, let's sign somebody from Denver if it's such a big deal. Since the Bengals were happy to re-sign Lawrie after the Ravens had him for that game, I doubt Willie is in the team's doghouse.

He also declined to take a paycut from the Bengals. He then took the open market deal that most appealled to him. Whether other teams offered more money or he liked Baltimore's playoff chances, or he wanted revenge on the Bengals is unclear. Complaining about him not getting more from the Ravens is silly.

[scharm]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='776167' date='May 14 2009, 11:18 AM']I am not confused by anything.


In 2006 and 2007, The Bengals scored 20 points or more
on that Ravens Defense, and won 3 out of the 4 games.


Also, in 3 of those 4 games, Carson had QB ratings of 91.7
or better. Then in the game against Willie, they scored the
lowest amount of points they ever had against the Ravens,
with Carson as the QB (10) and Carson had a QB rating of
32.3, while also only completing 37.5% of his passes.[/quote]

In those 4 games they average 282 yards (horrible) 1.25 TDs (Horrible) on an average 3.25 TOs a game (good job D).

So what do you think Willie told them? Uh, maybe you don't want your QB truning the ball over.

Rex Ryan has whooping Brat, he didn't need any help to shut that offense down. Heck his own team's offense was giving them over 3 TOs a game and only allowing over just 1 TD a game.

So do the math the last 6 games - .8 TDs a game over 3 years. 240 yards a game over 3 years.

3 fucking years!

Yes, let's trash one of the great bengals just because our offensive genius OC has been getting his assed whipped against a division rival. Real smart.

[Palmer9]

[quote name='sparky151' post='776194' date='May 14 2009, 12:30 PM']Signing Willie Anderson to a one day contract would be a nice touch. The Ravens currently have his rights and would have to release him first.

The bitching about him giving away our plays is hilarious. Every year teams make cuts before the first week of the season. It's not unusual for a team to pick up a player from their week 1 opponent and pump him for info. The Ravens also did it with Nate Lawrie for that game. They then cut him and the Bengals re-signed him. If the Bengals offense sputters to a stop because our opponent signed Anderson and Lawrie, then it wasn't going anywhere anyway. We saw that in preseason last year when the ones were in. Hell, let's sign somebody from Denver if it's such a big deal. Since the Bengals were happy to re-sign Lawrie after the Ravens had him for that game, I doubt Willie is in the team's doghouse.

He also declined to take a paycut from the Bengals. He then took the open market deal that most appealled to him. Whether other teams offered more money or he like Baltimore's playoff chances, or he wanted revenge on the Bengals is unclear. Complaining about him not getting more from the Ravens is silly.[/quote]

Exactly! You hit the nail on the head, Sparky151. Great info in there!

What's the old saying (someone on here might have it in thir sig): Do you seek the truth, or just believe it?
Those of the former will benefit by what you posted.

[scharm]

[quote name='mongo' post='776175' date='May 14 2009, 11:31 AM']Since Carson's been under center, the Bengals have averaged over 22 points per game against the Ravens defense. Beating them 6 of 8 meetings leading up to 2008 is real, and not some phantom stat that can be dismissed. The 48 points we scored on them in 2007 is real too. Those 10 points we scored were the fewest we've put up against the Ravens since Carson's first game against a Rex Ryan defense.

You may still believe Willie had nothing to do with it, but none of the data I look at supports you, and nothing backs you up enough to have been so smarmy with your initial replies. We beat the Ravens a Hell of a lot more than we lose to them, and put up the points on their defense in the process. Then comes opening day of 2008 and poof?[/quote]

4 games prior to Willie joining the Ravens they got an average of 3.25 TOs a game and only scored 1.25 TDs and could only turn that into 282 yards a game.

Even using your stats shows the steady decline of the Bengals offense vs. Ravens defense. They caught up to Brat. Look at what you posted.

As noted they put up good amount of points in 2004 and 2005 against them. Then the Ravens DID adjust to his scheme. From 2006 there has been a steady decline of offense productivity against them. Why would expect it to get better in 2008? The offense as whole got worse, they were going into the season banged up, and the Ravens were demonstrating their superiority in the 4 games prior.

Yet Willie told them the secret formations.

[quote]I don't know where you get this notion Brat is some sort of bumbling fool against the Ravens elite defense.[/quote]

Would you call averaging .8 TDs over 3 years 6 games a good performance by an OC?

[quote]Yep, Rex Ryan needed Willie. They haven't adjusted to the Ravens D since 2005.[/quote]

Originally posted by me. I'd like to know how you find that statement untrue.

[Palmer9]

[quote name='scharm' post='776195' date='May 14 2009, 12:31 PM']In those 4 games they average 282 yards (horrible) 1.25 TDs (Horrible) on an average 3.25 TOs a game (good job D).

So what do you think Willie told them? Uh, maybe you don't want your QB truning the ball over.

Rex Ryan has whooping Brat, he didn't need any help to shut that offense down. Heck his own team's offense was giving them over 3 TOs a game and only allowing over just 1 TD a game.

So do the math the last 6 games - .8 TDs a game over 3 years. 240 yards a game over 3 years.

3 fucking years!

Yes, let's trash one of the great bengals just because our offensive genius OC has been getting his assed whipped against a division rival. Real smart.[/quote]

These are really great stats. It's interesting to see the trends broken down this way & only goes to prove the point. I had no idea the Bengals offense only scored an average of 0.8 TDs per game going back that long. WoW!

[mongo]

[quote name='scharm' post='776195' date='May 14 2009, 12:31 PM']In those 4 games they average 282 yards (horrible) 1.25 TDs (Horrible) on an average 3.25 TOs a game (good job D).

So what do you think Willie told them? Uh, maybe you don't want your QB truning the ball over.

Rex Ryan has whooping Brat, he didn't need any help to shut that offense down. Heck his own team's offense was giving them over 3 TOs a game and only allowing over just 1 TD a game.

So do the math the last 6 games - .8 TDs a game over 3 years. 240 yards a game over 3 years.

3 fucking years!

Yes, let's trash one of the great bengals just because our offensive genius OC has been getting his assed whipped against a division rival. Real smart.[/quote]

Questions:

Which three years are we talking about? '05, '06, and '07 or '06, '07, and '08?

How many of those games did we win?

How many of those games did we protect a lead?


I find it difficult to worry about touchdowns when we win, and difficult to worry about yards gained when we're trying to grind out the clock.

[mongo]

[quote name='scharm' post='776198' date='May 14 2009, 12:40 PM']4 games prior to Willie joining the Ravens they got an average of 3.25 TOs a game and only scored 1.25 TDs and could only turn that into 282 yards a game.

Even using your stats shows the steady decline of the Bengals offense vs. Ravens defense. They caught up to Brat. Look at what you posted.

As noted they put up good amount of points in 2004 and 2005 against them. Then the Ravens DID adjust to his scheme. From 2006 there has been a steady decline of offense productivity against them. Why would expect it to get better in 2008? The offense as whole got worse, they were going into the season banged up, and the Ravens were demonstrating their superiority in the 4 games prior.

Yet Willie told them the secret formations.



Would you call averaging .8 TDs over 3 years 6 games a good performance by an OC?



Originally posted by me. I'd like to know how you find that statement untrue.[/quote]


See above post. Years in question, games won, leads protected... The games I've looked at (still flipping through), we do just fine against them in the first half, and protect the lead in the second.

[scharm]

[quote]Which three years are we talking about? '05, '06, and '07 or '06, '07, and '08?[/quote]

The last 3 years or last 6 games. 06-08.

[quote]How many of those games did we win?[/quote]

They are 3-3.

[quote]How many of those games did we protect a lead?[/quote]

They were never in stall mode. Most games went to the 4th quarter, less than 2 scores.

[quote]find it difficult to worry about touchdowns when we win, and difficult to worry about yards gained when we're trying to grind out the clock.[/quote]

I have no idea why you are stating this. Nobody is disputing the win/loss results. This is about Willie Anderson and the grudge some folks hold because he supposedly help their defense shut down our offense. Nothing about their record against the Ravens.

They went 3-3 in the last 6 with a horrible offense performance in each game. So why would anybody believe Willie Anderson was the difference. They shut them down 4 games prior to his arrival and 2 games after his arrival.