Obama is dead wrong here

[|Elflocko|]

Or, we could just end the policies that we've had in place that created the terrorists in the first place.

There's a novel idea...

[CTBengalsFan]

[quote name='CJandRudiJ' date='03 March 2010 - 10:58 PM' timestamp='1267675115' post='866772']
And no offense Jamie cause there are a ton like you, but I cant stand the people that think we have to live stictly by the constitution. A document that was written like 200+ years ago. Im sure when they wrote that they were thinking about terrorists trying to kill US citizens. There are a lot of things in the constitution we should live by but we also have to adapt to modern life.
[/quote]

You think the threat posed by Muslims in caves is greater than the threat of pissed off monarchs in the 18th century who were worried their people might overthrow them if America was allowed to succeed? Get real man.

[CTBengalsFan]

[quote name='CJandRudiJ' date='03 March 2010 - 11:36 PM' timestamp='1267677407' post='866778']
There wasnt even such thing as terrorism back then so there is no way they could have put what they thought about it into the constitution.
[/quote]

Are you kidding? Have you ever peeked inside a history book? French Revolution? Jesus.

No offense man, but it seems you hold your beliefs because of a total lack of historical context.

I leave it to Plato/Aristotle's contemplations on the issue, since you know, terrorism was around back then:

[quote]Both Plato and Aristotle insisted that injustice was not permitted as a means of producing good consequences. In the Republic, Plato makes this point in many diverse and intellectually subtle ways. He argued (as did Aristotle) that there are certain basic human values which are simply worth having for their own sake, and that the ultimate consequence of immoral behavior is self-destruction. Plato, in one of the most powerful passages in Western philosophy, describes the decline of the unjust man into the tyrant, the most unhappy of all men.[/quote]

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='CTBengalsFan' date='03 March 2010 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1267681049' post='866806']
Are you kidding? Have you ever peeked inside a history book? French Revolution? Jesus.

No offense man, but it seems you hold your beliefs because of a total lack of historical context.
[/quote]


I think you already know the answer to that...

[Homer_Rice]

Amusing. And Jamie's right. And here's a tidbit from history many people aren't aware of: A lot of contemporary folks thought Aristotle was involved in the (probable) assassination of Alexander the Great.

[MULLY]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='04 March 2010 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1267672637' post='866759']
My view of having to live in fear for the day while he was working that a 2nd plane might hit the pentagon like it did the towers. Most didnt have to worry about that.[/quote]

Had your father been killed that day, thank God he wasn't, you'd be singing a different tune. For what it's worth, my best friend's wife worked in Fuji bank in the World Trade Center so you're not the only one that had loved ones involved. Honest to God, she was late to work that day and they wouldn't let her in the building. I think something like 50 of her co-workers perished. Even creepier she has photos of her office from the day before.

[quote]
Mully not everyone that was taken was proven to have any involvement in it, simply saying kill them all under that notion is wrong.
[/quote]

Whether they were involved with 9/11 or not is not the issue. Even if they weren't involved they still believe America should go down. I say fuck 'em. Again, anyone that wants to hurt innocent American people deserve worse than death. If they were terrorizing government installations I'd call it an act of war but at least they're not going after the regular Joe on the street. Again, fuck 'em! I can't say it enough.
MULLY

[MULLY]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='04 March 2010 - 03:42 PM' timestamp='1267684931' post='866814']
Amusing. And Jamie's right. And here's a tidbit from history many people aren't aware of: A lot of contemporary folks thought Aristotle was involved in the (probable) assassination of Alexander the Great.
[/quote]


I'm not a history major but wasn't that like 3 or 400BC? Who gives a fuck? What bearing does that have on 2010?
MULLY

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='03 March 2010 - 08:45 PM' timestamp='1267670753' post='866754']
And if they get it wrong? I mean aren't you one that believes that we went to war on "bad intelligence"? But of course its not possible to have bad intelligence in these cases.

Also maybe you missed the part of the video where they said they have let a number of guys go because they couldnt show any evidence of wrong doing.[/quote]

Ha. Why even bring other subjects into this? Seriously?
I already said I thought Saddam should have been taken out in 1991.
I already said he could have prevented an invasion. Now you want
to act like I only supported it over bad intelligence? lol

And you lost me. You say "what if their wrong" in one line, then say "they let a number of guys go
because they couldn't show any evidence of wrong doing". Well, it seems to me they are killing
the right motherfuckers and letting the innocent ones go. Your own words state as much.





[quote]First off lets get one thing clear, my father was on the first response team at the pentagon to help pull people out that day, so my experience is much different than most who simply watched it on tv.
[/quote]

Did you watch it on TV? Then your experience was no different.
If YOU had went, then sure, it was different.

Anyway, I don't see what this has to do with anything.
It is like saying someone is less of a Bengals fan because
they weren't at the game.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Fulcher_33' date='03 March 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1267664574' post='866743']
Fucking hell, I would have more sympathy for non-American terrorists than an American one. Turning on your own people? That's so wrong on so many levels. But again, fuck anyone that wants to hurt the USA and its people!
MULLY
[/quote]


I totally agree. I just wanted to see if Jamie looked at the two differently.
As far as OK to assassinate one and not the other.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Fulcher_33' date='04 March 2010 - 06:13 AM' timestamp='1267701211' post='866817']
Had your father been killed that day, thank God he wasn't, you'd be singing a different tune. For what it's worth, my best friend's wife worked in Fuji bank in the World Trade Center so you're not the only one that had loved ones involved. Honest to God, she was late to work that day and they wouldn't let her in the building. I think something like 50 of her co-workers perished. Even creepier she has photos of her office from the day before.



Whether they were involved with 9/11 or not is not the issue. Even if they weren't involved they still believe America should go down. I say fuck 'em. Again, anyone that wants to hurt innocent American people deserve worse than death. If they were terrorizing government installations I'd call it an act of war but at least they're not going after the regular Joe on the street. Again, fuck 'em! I can't say it enough.
MULLY
[/quote]


Thank God she didnt make it to work. But no I dont think I would have changed my tune because I think I would have wanted to be in court to face at least someone responsible for this mess.

[quote name='oldschooler' date='04 March 2010 - 06:59 AM' timestamp='1267703952' post='866819']
Ha. Why even bring other subjects into this? Seriously?
I already said I thought Saddam should have been taken out in 1991.
I already said he could have prevented an invasion. Now you want
to act like I only supported it over bad intelligence? lol

And you lost me. You say "what if their wrong" in one line, then say "they let a number of guys go
because they couldn't show any evidence of wrong doing". Well, it seems to me they are killing
the right motherfuckers and letting the innocent ones go. Your own words state as much.







Did you watch it on TV? Then your experience was no different.
If YOU had went, then sure, it was different.

Anyway, I don't see what this has to do with anything.
It is like saying someone is less of a Bengals fan because
they weren't at the game.
[/quote]


To clear it up for you then, when I said what if they are wrong I mean about the guys they are going to assassinate. And that their were people they let go for lack of evidence. How you dont see how those are related...



No it's more like watching your kid (or in my case my father) play a bengals game vs any other fan.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='04 March 2010 - 06:33 AM' timestamp='1267705980' post='866831']

To clear it up for you then, when I said what if they are wrong I mean about the guys they are going to assassinate. And that their were people they let go for lack of evidence. How you dont see how those are related...[/quote]


I would say they have pretty strong evidence before they even aim a gun at his head.

And what if they are right, go your route, and Agents get killed trying to apprehend the guy
and he is killed anyway (or not killed)? You want to talk to Agents family about due process?

Like I said, I don't have a problem with this, and I view it as self defense.




[quote]No it's more like watching your kid (or in my case my father) play a bengals game vs any other fan.[/quote]


So you think I didn't have loved one's in a position that I feared something may happen to them?
No one knew what the targets were. No one knew who was going to die next.

Your position was no different, and it really has nothing to do with the topic anyway.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='04 March 2010 - 07:46 AM' timestamp='1267706788' post='866832']
I would say they have pretty strong evidence before they even aim a gun at his head.

And what if they are right, go your route, and Agents get killed trying to apprehend the guy
and he is killed anyway (or not killed)? You want to talk to Agents family about due process?

Like I said, I don't have a problem with this, and I view it as self defense.
[/quote]


I would say that the fact that they had to let alot of guys go due to lack of evidence means they dont always get it right.

And what if they dont, and what if they kill an innocent guy, you want to explain that to his family? Further you want to explain it to the many families that might end up victim of terrorism if someone decides to take action because of this? You realize the chain reaction here?



[quote name='oldschooler' date='04 March 2010 - 07:46 AM' timestamp='1267706788' post='866832']
So you think I didn't have loved one's in a position that I feared something may happen to them?
No one knew what the targets were. No one knew who was going to die next.

Your position was no different, and it really has nothing to do with the topic anyway.
[/quote]

Weak sauce. No nobody knew what the targets were therefore anything was a target, your reaching. We saw them attack the WTC a 2nd time, it was not beyond reason to think it may happen a 2nd time to the Pentagon.

No it doest but dont demean it.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='04 March 2010 - 07:12 AM' timestamp='1267708379' post='866837']
I would say that the fact that they had to let alot of guys go due to lack of evidence means they dont always get it right.[/quote]


Lack of evidence is something for a court of law. Lack of evidence doesn't mean lack of guilt.
Ask O.J.


[quote]And what if they dont, and what if they kill an innocent guy, you want to explain that to his family? Further you want to explain it to the many families that might end up victim of terrorism if someone decides to take action because of this? You realize the chain reaction here? [/quote]



Sometimes people are killed for being at the wrong place at the wrong time or with the wrong crowd.
I seriously doubt if they pull the trigger on someone, he is really innocent. And that is a chance I am
willing to take for the safety of millions.

And you act like apprehending people and putting them on trial wouldn't also cause a similar chain reaction.




[quote]Weak sauce. No nobody knew what the targets were therefore anything was a target, your reaching. We saw them attack the WTC a 2nd time, it was not beyond reason to think it may happen a 2nd time to the Pentagon.

No it doest but dont demean it.
[/quote]



For your information I have several friends and family members that are/were in the military.
You had no more fear for your Father's safety than I had for their's. So again, your position
was no different. and really has nothing to do with the topic.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='04 March 2010 - 08:24 AM' timestamp='1267709094' post='866841']
Lack of evidence is something for a court of law. Lack of evidence doesn't mean lack of guilt.
Ask O.J.
[/quote]


Yes because every person who is let off for lack of evidence is guilty just like OJ. Please just stop.



[quote name='oldschooler' date='04 March 2010 - 08:24 AM' timestamp='1267709094' post='866841']
Sometimes people are killed for being at the wrong place at the wrong time or with the wrong crowd.
I seriously doubt if they pull the trigger on someone, he is really innocent. And that is a chance I am
willing to take for the safety of millions.

And you act like apprehending people and putting them on trial wouldn't also cause a similar chain reaction.


[/quote]

Oh lord, the guilty by association argument is trite, spare me.


[quote name='oldschooler' date='04 March 2010 - 08:24 AM' timestamp='1267709094' post='866841']
For your information I have several friends and family members that are/were in the military.
You had no more fear for your Father's safety than I had for their's. So again, your position
was no different. and really has nothing to do with the topic.
[/quote]


Yes old friends and family are pretty much the same thing. Now while I hope your friends ended up ok, please stop insulting me by equating that. The only reason I even brought it up was to point out that my experience was a little different than most JUST watching it on tv, that I had someone at the pentagon that was family. And while I think friendship is important and have numerous friends who I consider almost as close as family, nothing goes deeper than blood.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='04 March 2010 - 07:34 AM' timestamp='1267709658' post='866845']
Yes because every person who is let off for lack of evidence is guilty just like OJ. Please just stop.[/quote]


Where did I say every person? I said it is for a court of law. But doesn't mean lack of guilt.
So you stop.





[quote]Oh lord, the guilty by association argument is trite, spare me. [/quote]


You are spared.

Like I said, it is a chance I am willing to take. And apparently so is our Government.
I applaud them for it.





[quote]Yes old friends and family are pretty much the same thing. Now while I hope your friends ended up ok, please stop insulting me by equating that. The only reason I even brought it up was to point out that my experience was a little different than most JUST watching it on tv, that I had someone at the pentagon that was family. And while I think friendship is important and have numerous friends who I consider almost as close as family, nothing goes deeper than blood.[/quote]


I guess you missed where I said I had family members in the military?
Read it again, you might catch it this time.

Insulting you. lol

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='04 March 2010 - 08:43 AM' timestamp='1267710230' post='866851']
Where did I say every person? I said it is for a court of law. But doesn't mean lack of guilt.
So you stop.








You are spared.

Like I said, it is a chance I am willing to take. And apparently so is our Government.
I applaud them for it.








I guess you missed where I said I had family members in the military?
Read it again, you might catch it this time.

Insulting you. lol
[/quote]


You know we've never met so I dont know what you sound like but I imagine it's likely like this...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh6v9d32OHI[/media]

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='04 March 2010 - 07:52 AM' timestamp='1267710721' post='866853']
You know we've never met so I dont know what you sound like but I imagine it's likely like this...

[media][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh6v9d32OHI"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=xh6v9d32OHI[/url][/media]
[/quote]




And I imagine you being like this . . .



[media][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEhcjKZP6LI"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=OEhcjKZP6LI[/url][/media]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='04 March 2010 - 08:58 AM' timestamp='1267711129' post='866855']
And I imagine you being like this . . .



[media][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEhcjKZP6LI"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=OEhcjKZP6LI[/url][/media]
[/quote]


yawn

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Fulcher_33' date='04 March 2010 - 06:15 AM' timestamp='1267701326' post='866818']
I'm not a history major but wasn't that like 3 or 400BC? Who gives a fuck? What bearing does that have on 2010?
MULLY
[/quote]
In reference to CTBengals quote. It was 323 BC. I give a fuck. The bearing is simply this: Aristotle said one thing but quite possibly did another. Happens all the time nowadays.

Also, for all your bluster about not harming the US, I wonder if you might consider that some folks would say that holding a pro-torture view does harm the US? I know I think that view hurts our nation.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='04 March 2010 - 09:04 AM' timestamp='1267711453' post='866860']
In reference to CTBengals quote. It was 323 BC. I give a fuck. The bearing is simply this: Aristotle said one thing but quite possibly did another. Happens all the time nowadays.

Also, for all your bluster about not harming the US, [color="#FF0000"]I wonder if you might consider that some folks would say that holding a pro-torture view does harm the US? I know I think that view hurts our nation.[/color]
[/quote]


x2

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='04 March 2010 - 08:01 AM' timestamp='1267711304' post='866858']
yawn
[/quote]





[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/smileyfart.gif[/img]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='04 March 2010 - 09:13 AM' timestamp='1267712017' post='866868']
[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/smileyfart.gif[/img]
[/quote]

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='04 March 2010 - 08:17 AM' timestamp='1267712260' post='866869']
[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/read.gif[/img]
[/quote]




[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/pointlaff.gif[/img]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/30.gif[/img]

And

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/15.gif[/img]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='04 March 2010 - 09:22 AM' timestamp='1267712526' post='866874']
[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/pointlaff.gif[/img]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/30.gif[/img]

And

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/15.gif[/img]
[/quote]

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='04 March 2010 - 08:28 AM' timestamp='1267712928' post='866876']
[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/40.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/boring.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]
[/quote]




[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/29.gif[/img]



Ok. This is beyond gay. But you like that don't you wussy boy? [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/23.gif[/img]


You win. I am out.

Back to your regularly schedule wussisode.