Bengals1181 Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 discussions are only worth having if both sides are willing to take 2 seconds to understand the other sides' perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccartman2 Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1294103813' post='957196'] How many years do we look ok at the end of the year. Its the oldest trick in the book. [/quote] Plenty, and it won't be the last either. Should be noted though they didn't quit, played some tough teams, with out their two "star" receivers. Just maybe enough to support Marvin's complaint that it was philosophy that caused most of the losing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1294104255' post='957203'] discussions are only worth having if both sides are willing to take 2 seconds to understand the other sides' perspective. [/quote] I agree, I just don't get it though. I am banging my head against the wall on this one. I feel like I was standing with the majority in the Marvin needs to go camp and bent over to tie my shoe and everyone moved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='ccartman2' timestamp='1294104314' post='957206'] Plenty, and it won't be the last either. Should be noted though they didn't quit, played some tough teams, with out their two "star" receivers. Just maybe enough to support Marvin's complaint that it was philosophy that caused most of the losing. [/quote] Isnt it His philosophy. Cant he as the HEAD Coach change that? My theory is that my inability to dunk doesnt get me in the NBA, that doesnt make me a better basketball player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1294093272' post='957063'] I disagree... See Chris Henry Bob Bratkowski Hue Jackson Practice Bubble or complex... ...and you can not tell me Marvin would not have hired more scouts if he had the ability. [/quote] You can't tell me fans didn't have the perception that Marvin had significant control at one time. You can't tell me Marvin did not promote that perception and also publically support the way they operated several times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1294104385' post='957207'] I agree, I just don't get it though. I am banging my head against the wall on this one. I feel like I was standing with the majority in the Marvin needs to go camp and bent over to tie my shoe and everyone moved. [/quote] what you and skippy are overlooking is that many of the people who want Marvin back, want him back in large part because of what comes with him. Marvin Back = continued progress in reforming the front office to the standards of the 31 other teams and MB changing his ways in some fashion. New Coach = no change, and a coach with the same hamstrings that coaches of the last 20 years had. Either you guys aren't getting that, or don't care to get it. I dunno. I'll take "decent coach with improved front office" over "unproven coach with same front office" any day of the week and twice on sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1294104453' post='957209'] [b]Isnt it His philosophy. Cant he as the HEAD Coach change that?[/b] My theory is that my inability to dunk doesnt get me in the NBA, that doesnt make me a better basketball player. [/quote] you'd think, but that doesn't seem to be the case. There's no consistent philosophy in the organization and the last 3 weeks are a great example of that. pound the rock against browns and chargers - wins. Abandon the run against the Ravens and they lose. I think a big part of things is the differing philosophies of Marvin and Brat, who Marvin wanted to replace and wasn't allowed to. If your HC and your OC aren't on the same page and the HC doesn't have any power to change it, what's he to do? It'd be one thing if Marvin was an offensive minded coach and could just take over the offensive playcalling. He's not, so he HAS to let Brat do it, and its clear he doesn't trust him. The organization as a whole needs to find a consistent philosophy and needs players, AND coaches, that fit that philosophy. That's a big part of what Marvin wants, and if he gets it I'll be very happy that he's back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1294105198' post='957218'] what you and skippy are overlooking is that many of the people who want Marvin back, want him back in large part because of what comes with him. Marvin Back = continued progress in reforming the front office to the standards of the 31 other teams and MB changing his ways in some fashion. New Coach = no change, and a coach with the same hamstrings that coaches of the last 20 years had. Either you guys aren't getting that, or don't care to get it. I dunno. I'll take "decent coach with improved front office" over "unproven coach with same front office" any day of the week and twice on sunday. [/quote] I get this but he is a proven coach...proven bad. He basically did poorly and is now somehow in a position to negotiate what he wants. I think thats absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote]what you and skippy are overlooking is that many of the people who want Marvin back, want him back in large part because of what comes with him. [/quote] Actually, I think I've noted that several times. I don't buy it on several levels. 1 - Mike is going to run his team 2 - Fans will never know what truly is going on. They'll continue to play this game of guessing "who's in charge" pending on how they view the moves the franchise is making and the satisfaction of the season. Why keep a coach off a horrible season just on the hope and dreams of change that no one will believe in anyway? [quote]Either you guys aren't getting that, or don't care to get it. I dunno. [/quote] Fools gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Can you imagine if Mangini walked into his meeting yesterday with Holmgren and said The only way I will stay after my 5-11 season is if you fulffill my list of demands. He would have gotten laughed out of the room. Marvin lost ten games in a row. He is in no position to be controlling negotiations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1294105854' post='957228'] [b]I get this but he is a proven coach...proven bad.[/b] He basically did poorly and is now somehow in a position to negotiate what he wants. I think thats absurd. [/quote] we'll agree to disagree on the bolded. You can't just look at his record and overlook what he has to put up with. Players he doesn't want, coaches he doesn't want, and a front office/scouting department not what it needs to be. Most every coach in the league has it better in all of those areas. I'd say you're pretty reasonable overall. Even YOU know he's being asked to succeed with one hand tied behind his back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1294105906' post='957230'] [b]Why keep a coach off a horrible season just on the hope and dreams of change that no one will believe in anyway?[/b] [/quote] and that's why you don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1294105553' post='957224'] you'd think, but that doesn't seem to be the case. There's no consistent philosophy in the organization and the last 3 weeks are a great example of that. pound the rock against browns and chargers - wins. Abandon the run against the Ravens and they lose. I think a big part of things is the differing philosophies of Marvin and Brat, who Marvin wanted to replace and wasn't allowed to. If your HC and your OC aren't on the same page and the HC doesn't have any power to change it, what's he to do? It'd be one thing if Marvin was an offensive minded coach and could just take over the offensive playcalling. He's not, so he HAS to let Brat do it, and its clear he doesn't trust him. The organization as a whole needs to find a consistent philosophy and needs players, AND coaches, that fit that philosophy. That's a big part of what Marvin wants, and if he gets it I'll be very happy that he's back. [/quote] Actually what you describe is a reason why Marvin shouldn't return. Whatever the relationship between Marvin and Brat it worked to secure playoffs the season before. If I'm to buy into your theory that relationship declined to a point it effected the team's performance. You can not extend the benefit of the doubt to a coach that under achieves so badly. Can't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1294106309' post='957235'] and that's why you don't get it. [/quote] What exactly is "it". Your point of view? Yeah, I don't get it. Your belief that if Marvin extends his contract an army of scouts is going to set up camp at PBS? Yeah, I don't get that either. A consistent philosophy that Marvin wants? Yeah, I don't buy that. That is a load of bullshit that is passing the buck on their failed attempt to expand an offense that in turn hurt the team. As if Marvin didn't want TO and more explosive plays. He failed to work well enough with his assistants and his staff to deliver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1294106738' post='957243'] What exactly is "it". Your point of view? Yeah, I don't get it. Your belief that if Marvin extends his contract an army of scouts is going to set up camp at PBS? Yeah, I don't get that either. A consistent philosophy that Marvin wants? Yeah, I don't buy that. That is a load of bullshit that is passing the buck on their failed attempt to expand an offense that in turn hurt the team. As if Marvin didn't want TO and more explosive plays. He failed to work well enough with his assistants and his staff to deliver. [/quote] Im not sure either way, but what makes you so sure that Marvin wanted TO. How do you know it wasnt completely Mike's decision to bring in TO and Marvin therefore acted like he was fine with it instead of causing a controversy? Maybe he wanted him maybe he didnt, but I think its funny that you are so sure about all these things when in reality you have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1294103813' post='957196'] How many years do we look ok at the end of the year. Its the oldest trick in the book. [/quote] So we played against two of our biggest rivals and a team trying to get in the playoffs and they decided to play soft and let us look good? Suuuuurrrrrreeee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalsdave985 Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1294106309' post='957235'] and that's why you don't get it. [/quote] No, its why you dont get it. Your hoping a 73 year old who has been running his business the same way for who knows how many years will all of a sudden change his ways and concede to a list of demands from a coach who is coming off a 4-12 season. You can hope in one hand and shit in the other, tell me which one fills up faster. I hope he changes as well but him changing means nothing to me when it comes to Marvin. In no other line of work or in no other NFL city would a coach coming off the season we had where the expectations were as high as they were even have the opportunity to discuss an extension. Marvin has been here 8 years, he signed at least 1 contract extension knowing full well how Mike works, if he didnt like it he could have left on his own at any point in time. He talks constantly about how he likes MB and they talk everyday, either he's a fucking liar or doesnt hate working for MB as much as a lot of people think. Everyone was beyond pumped going into the season, they had a nice draft, added what we thought would be helpful FA's, and had a defense coming back that everyone was excited about. With all that we got a 4-12 abortion, how anyone who could want to bring the guy in charge of all that is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 I feel like we got houdinied here. The practice facility and scouts did not matter until we went 12-4. Its a misdirection. Marvins teams were undisciplined, unprepared and horribly schemed. What does that have to do with scouts and practice facilities. I am a huge proponent of scouts, gms, practice facilities etc etc....but being one doesn't mean Marvin shouldnt be done. No matter what happens here Marvin looks good after a 4-12 season and Mike Brown looks ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='CJandTO' timestamp='1294106998' post='957244'] Im not sure either way, but what makes you so sure that Marvin wanted TO. How do you know it wasnt completely Mike's decision to bring in TO and Marvin therefore acted like he was fine with it instead of causing a controversy? Maybe he wanted him maybe he didnt, but I think its funny that you are so sure about all these things when in reality you have no idea. [/quote] I believe profootballtalk began to report that Lewis did not support the move. Then maybe Adam Schefter reported that was false and Marvin was in agreement with the move. Shortly there after Marvin admitted himself that he called TO after the first visit and asked that he keep his options open. I believe Brat also indicated something similar I also believe Carson worked out with TO and then said he went to Marvin to express his interest. There's threads on these boards discussing the situation and if I recall correctly it seemed clear that Marvin had signed off on the move. I could be mistaken on the timeline and the discussion, but me thinking Marvin was on board is no different than others trying to say he wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Blake Posted January 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1294106141' post='957233'] Can you imagine if Mangini walked into his meeting yesterday with Holmgren and said The only way I will stay after my 5-11 season is if you fulffill my list of demands. He would have gotten laughed out of the room. Marvin lost ten games in a row. He is in no position to be controlling negotiations. [/quote] Mike Brown obviously wanted Marvin back so that in itself gives him some leverage. And what exactly would Mangini ask for that he didn't already have? The Bengals are the only team in the AFC North without a real GM. They have the smallest (non existent) scouting dept, the worst practice facilities etc. He obviously doesn't have final say on his staff or offensive/defensive philosophy based on his "demands." I'm not saying Marvin shouldn't go but replacing him with somebody currently on the staff isn't the answer when the problems are much bigger than any one coach. Who cares who the coach is? No top coach is coming here. Look at the last 20 years. Marvin is simply asking for what is needed. Who gives a flying fuck if anyone thinks he deserves the right to ask? I don't care if he was 0-16 or Joe the Janitor said it. The premise is correct. Let Marvin walk. I could care less. But the next whipping boy will already have 2 strikes against him unless the philosophy of the organization changes dramatically. The NFL is constantly evolving, changing, improving etc. and this team keeps doing things the same old way with MB's incompetence and stubbornness at the helm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='bengalsdave985' timestamp='1294107727' post='957258'] No, its why you dont get it. [b]Your hoping a 73 year old who has been running his business the same way for who knows how many years will all of a sudden change his ways and concede to a list of demands from a coach who is coming off a 4-12 season. [/b] You can hope in one hand and shit in the other, tell me which one fills up faster. I hope he changes as well but him changing means nothing to me when it comes to Marvin. In no other line of work or in no other NFL city would a coach coming off the season we had where the expectations were as high as they were even have the opportunity to discuss an extension. Marvin has been here 8 years, he signed at least 1 contract extension knowing full well how Mike works, if he didnt like it he could have left on his own at any point in time. He talks constantly about how he likes MB and they talk everyday, either he's a fucking liar or doesnt hate working for MB as much as a lot of people think. Everyone was beyond pumped going into the season, they had a nice draft, added what we thought would be helpful FA's, and had a defense coming back that everyone was excited about. With all that we got a 4-12 abortion, how anyone who could want to bring the guy in charge of all that is beyond me. [/quote] sure I'm hoping. Who isn't? Even you are. Expecting is a different story. And no offense, you just showed you don't get it either. There's no dreaming, no false hope. It either happens or it doesn't. If Marvin is back, changes will happen. They'll be in Marvin's contract. You can bank on that. If they don't, its safe to assume no changes are coming. That's why many want marvin back. There's no dreaming, no false hope. If he's back, he got his way (as do the fans). If he's not, the process starts over. It's that simple. Regardless of what you think of Marvin as a coach, everyone should be hoping for those changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Blake Posted January 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1294108138' post='957265'] sure I'm hoping. Who isn't? Even you are. Expecting is a different story. And no offense, you just showed you don't get it either. There's no dreaming, no false hope. It either happens or it doesn't. If Marvin is back, changes will happen. They'll be in Marvin's contract. You can bank on that. If they don't, its safe to assume no changes are coming. That's why many want marvin back. There's no dreaming, no false hope. If he's back, he got his way. If he's not, the process starts over. It's that simple. Regardless of what you think of Marvin as a coach, everyone should be hoping for those changes. [/quote] Thank you. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1294107997' post='957263'] I believe profootballtalk began to report that Lewis did not support the move. Then maybe Adam Schefter reported that was false and Marvin was in agreement with the move. Shortly there after Marvin admitted himself that he called TO after the first visit and asked that he keep his options open. I believe Brat also indicated something similar I also believe Carson worked out with TO and then said he went to Marvin to express his interest. There's threads on these boards discussing the situation and if I recall correctly it seemed clear that Marvin had signed off on the move. [/quote] Lets be honest though, you have no idea. All this could be true, or could also be wrong. Maybe after we brought TO in and used him as leverage against AB, Marvin felt bad about how the ownership treated TO and called him to keep his spirits up cause hes a good guy. Maybe Carson did call Marvin and Marvin said ok Cars, but I dont think that benefits the team. Maybe after signing TO and when PFT reported Marvin was against it they were right, but Marvin and or the bengals leaked to schefter that he was fine with it because they didnt want to cause a controversy before the season even started. Might everything you posted be correct? Maybe. Or all that could be way off. Thats why Im not necessarily completely in favor of keeping Marvin or completely in favor of getting rid of him. I think its amusing how people on both sides, yourself included, seem so adamant about certain things when in all reality you dont really know whats going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 I hope you are right because I think he is coming back. It makes no sense for either party but the more they put it off the more I am convinced that he is back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1294108138' post='957265'] sure I'm hoping. Who isn't? Even you are. Expecting is a different story. And no offense, you just showed you don't get it either. There's no dreaming, no false hope. It either happens or it doesn't. [b]If Marvin is back, changes will happen. They'll be in Marvin's contract. You can bank on that. If they don't, its safe to assume no changes are coming. [/b] That's why many want marvin back. There's no dreaming, no false hope. If he's back, he got his way. If he's not, the process starts over. It's that simple. Regardless of what you think of Marvin as a coach, everyone should be hoping for those changes. [/quote] What amazes me about this is that Marvin's demands are for the most part the same structural and cultural changes that 90% of us want to occur. And it appears that he has been steadfast to these for the last 18 months. We should truly be applauding the man for seeing the same thing that most of us do, and having the balls enough to tell Mike that he'd rather not be a HC than to have to do it in a bad situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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