Is it just me......

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1294113289' post='957343']
For the marvin haters, what he's trying to do is change the culture of a losing franchise. MB has already hired/fired coaches. The only thing he hasn't done is increase the personell dept, add a gm. But whatever, forget the gm, just add some scouts for fucks sake! When a franchise that's a perrenial loser starts to struggle, the losng culture and mentality takes over. How many times does he have to hire/fire coaches before he tries something different?MB should be committed to winning but when he refuses to change his philosophy, then I question his commitment to winning. Those of you calling out others b/c of the changes marvin wants are totally fucking clueless. [b]The changes can only help this team we're all fans of, get better. This isn't about marvin, its about the changes marvin wants. The changes we as fans want[/b]. Some people really need to wake the fuck up as to what's really at issue here.
[/quote]


This.

[bengalsdave985]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1294113162' post='957340']
not really trying to. Just trying to make you understand where many are coming from. You have your opinion, and that's cool. For many of us, its not about Marvin. It's about the line in the sand that's been drawn and what would come with it if its successful. Marvin just happens to have been the one to drawn it.


If its successful, the front office moves closer to respectability.


If not, another unproven coach comes in and the cycle repeats.



For me personally, I'll gladly take Marvin back to take a chunk out of the cycle.
[/quote]
Just so we are clear, your saying you would take a bad football coach if that meant MB gave him this stuff we are talking about?

[JBandJoeyV]

Id love to be in these meetings with Mike and Marvin. Get an idea how things really are.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengalsdave985' timestamp='1294113702' post='957353']
Just so we are clear, your saying you would take a bad football coach if that meant MB gave him this stuff we are talking about?
[/quote]


we've been over this. Obviously I disagree that Marvin is a bad coach.



As for the general question, if I had confidence that the GM would bring in a new coach the next year, yeah I'd take my chances with a crap Head Coach if it brought significant change to the organization. The coach can be replaced. It's unlikely the organizational change would go back away anytime soon.

[bengalsdave985]

[quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1294113289' post='957343']
For the marvin haters, what he's trying to do is change the culture of a losing franchise. MB has already hired/fired coaches. The only thing he hasn't done is increase the personell dept, add a gm. But whatever, forget the gm, just add some scouts for fucks sake! When a franchise that's a perrenial loser starts to struggle, the losng culture and mentality takes over. How many times does he have to hire/fire coaches before he tries something different?MB should be committed to winning but when he refuses to change his philosophy, then I question his commitment to winning. Those of you calling out others b/c of the changes marvin wants are totally fucking clueless. The changes can only help this team we're all fans of, get better. This isn't about marvin, its about the changes marvin wants. The changes we as fans want. Some people really need to wake the fuck up as to what's really at issue here.
[/quote]
I'm not calling out the changes I'm calling out the person asking for them. If you or I went to our boss after a year where we underachieved considerably and asked for a raise, a company car, and an extra weeks vacation (all things that may or may not help us so our job better) and said if I dont get them I'm going somewhere else he would laugh and show us the door. I dont see how this is any different, who cares if they like each other, one is the boss and one is the employee. IMO he hasnt done enough to expect for MB to make all these concessions.

We are debating two different things, your saying Marvin coming back means MB has made concessions and your assuming that means they will win more games and thats fine. My point is after completing a total disaster of a season and not winning enough games IMO he shouldnt even have the opportunity to ask for these things.

[scharm]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1294114045' post='957362']
we've been over this. Obviously I disagree that Marvin is a bad coach.



As for the general question, if I had confidence that the GM would bring in a new coach the next year, yeah I'd take my chances with a crap Head Coach if it brought significant change to the organization. The coach can be replaced. It's unlikely the organizational change would go back away anytime soon.
[/quote]

As always you run in circles when you are clearly over your head.

You clearly stated the changes Marvin wants will be in his contract or he walks.

There is no GM in that senario. There is no organizational change. That is a relationship that you've tried to convince yourself that can be managed by a contract.

If a new contract with Marvin or any other coach you use in your dumb examples walks there goes the changes.

Just another example of why your point of view is dream.

These things are not easily contracted. They do not happen often. The current owner has no history of doing things like this. The final nail in your coffin is you just changed your senario to meet your pipe dream. Ha ha.

Second time you've stuck your foot in your mouth. To easy.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1294114495' post='957372']
As always you run in circles when you are clearly over your head.

You clearly stated the changes Marvin wants will be in his contract or he walks.

There is no GM in that senario. There is no organizational change. That is a relationship that you've tried to convince yourself that can be managed by a contract.

If a new contract with Marvin or any other coach you use in your dumb examples walks there goes the changes.

Just another example of why your point of view is dream.

These things are not easily contracted. They do not happen often. The current owner has no history of doing things like this. The final nail in your coffin is you just changed your senario to meet your pipe dream. Ha ha.

Second time you've stuck your foot in your mouth. To easy.
[/quote]



here's a tip. The discussions and hypothetical scenarios I have with other posters, aren't the same discussions and hypothetical scanarios I have with you. That's why they are different discussions.

[scharm]

[quote name='bengalsdave985' timestamp='1294114443' post='957371']
I'm not calling out the changes I'm calling out the person asking for them. If you or I went to our boss after a year where we underachieved considerably and asked for a raise, a company car, and an extra weeks vacation (all things that may or may not help us so our job better) and said if I dont get them I'm going somewhere else he would laugh and show us the door. I dont see how this is any different, who cares if they like each other, one is the boss and one is the employee. IMO he hasnt done enough to expect for MB to make all these concessions.

We are debating two different things, your saying Marvin coming back means MB has made concessions and your assuming that means they will win more games and thats fine. My point is after completing a total disaster of a season and not winning enough games IMO he shouldnt even have the opportunity to ask for these things.
[/quote]

This is reality. The other stuff smells like some Marvin supporters that can't defend his recent record or performance so they dress up their desire with organizational changes.

The overall point is. Even if Marvin got what he wanted. No fan on this board will have clear cut insight on the inner workings of the team. They more than likely would revert back to Mike's in charge once things go bad.

The rest is some dumb mumbo jumbo 1181 smoked in his younger years.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1294114906' post='957378']
This is reality. The other stuff smells like some Marvin supporters that can't defend his recent record or performance so they dress up their desire with organizational changes.

The overall point is. Even if Marvin got what he wanted. No fan on this board will have clear cut insight on the inner workings of the team. [b]They more than likely would revert back to Mike's in charge once things go bad.[/b]

The rest is some dumb mumbo jumbo 1181 smoked in his younger years.
[/quote]


Marvin would know. That's why he'll get them in writing if he gets them.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengalsdave985' timestamp='1294114443' post='957371']
I'm not calling out the changes I'm calling out the person asking for them. If you or I went to our boss after a year where we underachieved considerably and asked for a raise, a company car, and an extra weeks vacation (all things that may or may not help us so our job better) and said if I dont get them I'm going somewhere else he would laugh and show us the door. I dont see how this is any different, who cares if they like each other, one is the boss and one is the employee. IMO he hasnt done enough to expect for MB to make all these concessions.

We are debating two different things, your saying Marvin coming back means MB has made concessions and your assuming that means they will win more games and thats fine. My point is after completing a total disaster of a season and not winning enough games IMO he shouldnt even have the opportunity to ask for these things.
[/quote]


your first paragraph is certainly meritable, and much of it can't be disagreed with.


It's not the point most are making though. As you say, we're clearly debaring two different things.


You're arguing against Marvin. Myself and others are arguing for organizational changes (which as things stand, only come with keeping Marvin)

[scharm]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1294114788' post='957375']
here's a tip. The discussions and hypothetical scenarios I have with other posters, aren't the same discussions and hypothetical scanarios I have with you. That's why they are different discussions.
[/quote]

3rd time.

1181:

[quote]It's a simple line in the sand. Changes are coming with Marvin, or things are staying the same with someone else. Marvin is happy to walk if those changes aren't guaranteed. [/quote]

There are no hypothetical scenarios according to you. You clearly state this is a simple line in the sand. These are changes that will be guaranteed contracted between Marvin and the Bengals or Marvin will walk.

You state to get these changes you would accept Dave Shula as coach.

Ha Ha.

[bengalsdave985]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1294115032' post='957381']
Marvin would know. That's why he'll get them in writing if he gets them.
[/quote]
What exactly are you saying he could get in writing?

That they have to build a practice facility by a certain date? I dont see how this would work, I also dont see MB restricting himself on when he has to build a 15-30m dollar structure by.

That they have to have a certain offensive and defensive philosophy? Like will be a running team or a 4-3 defense? Doesnt personnel dictate that?

That they have to employ a certain # of scouts? That one could be done

That Marvin gets final say on coaching staff? I dont see that ever happening. Marvin can suggest someone and hope MB agrees but w/o a GM it will always be Mike w/ the final say.

What else am I missing?

[bengaled]

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1294114906' post='957378']
This is reality. The other stuff smells like some Marvin supporters that can't defend his recent record or performance so they dress up their desire with organizational changes.

The overall point is. Even if Marvin got what he wanted. No fan on this board will have clear cut insight on the inner workings of the team. They more than likely would revert back to Mike's in charge once things go bad.

The rest is some dumb mumbo jumbo 1181 smoked in his younger years.
[/quote]


so much bullshit, yet again. if mike concedes to a training facility...yes, we'll have obvious evidence of it, and it will remain here to stay from then on.

if mike concedes to a few more scouts...yes, we'll see and know of definite evidence of it, and they will likely never be reduced in number at a later date, either.

if he gives up changes in the coach naming his assistants, this ALSO will likely be a format that will remain in place for the future.



so basically, you've just given up your version of how changes would revert back to mike if he decided on them... when everyone knows that's not likely to be the case, if and when he does give in on such things.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1294115291' post='957384']
3rd time.

1181:



There are no hypothetical scenarios according to you. [b]You clearly state this is a simple line in the sand. These are changes that will be guaranteed contracted between Marvin and the Bengals or Marvin will walk.[/b]

You state to get these changes you would accept Dave Shula as coach.

Ha Ha.
[/quote]


clearly you can't distinguish between reality that is going on in PBS right now and a hypothetical scenario I was discussing with another poster.



As to the bolded. That's true, and has been true all along. Either changes are coming, or they aren't. To the disappointment of some, those changes are only coming if Marvin comes with them. They won't come with a different coach, and Marvin won't come back without them.


Either way I imagine they'll be a lot of happy and a lot of disappointed Bengals fans come Wednesday, regardless of what happens.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1294115701' post='957390']
so much bullshit, yet again. if mike concedes to a training facility...yes, we'll have obvious evidence of it, and it will remain here to stay from then on.

if mike concedes to a few more scouts...yes, we'll see and know of definite evidence of it, and they will likely never be reduced in number at a later date, either.

if he gives up changes in the coach naming his assistants, this ALSO will likely be a format that will remain in place for the future.



so basically, you've just given up your version of how changes would revert back to mike if he decided on them... when everyone knows that's not likely to be the case, if and when he does give in on such things.
[/quote]

[bengalsdave985]

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1294116033' post='957394']
so much bullshit, yet again. if mike concedes to a training facility...yes, we'll have obvious evidence of it, and it will remain here to stay from then on.

if mike concedes to a few more scouts...yes, we'll see and know of definite evidence of it, and they will likely never be reduced in number at a later date, either.

if he gives up changes in the coach naming his assistants, this ALSO will likely be a format that will remain in place for the future.



so basically, you've just given up your version of how changes would revert back to mike if he decided on them... when everyone knows that's not likely to be the case, if and when he would give in on such things. what's worse, you've done so stating it's a reality, when it's not.
[/quote]
did you just repost your own post? Thats just showing off dude, lol

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengalsdave985' timestamp='1294115628' post='957388']
What exactly are you saying he could get in writing?

That they have to build a practice facility by a certain date? I dont see how this would work, I also dont see MB restricting himself on when he has to build a 15-30m dollar structure by.

That they have to have a certain offensive and defensive philosophy? Like will be a running team or a 4-3 defense? Doesnt personnel dictate that?

That they have to employ a certain # of scouts? That one could be done

That Marvin gets final say on coaching staff? I dont see that ever happening. Marvin can suggest someone and hope MB agrees but w/o a GM it will always be Mike w/ the final say.

What else am I missing?
[/quote]


yes, I think you can put in a reasonable date as far as a practice facility goes.

As you said, the scouts part would be easy

I think it would be easy to put in that Marvin gets final decision on staff and players, but front office has final say on financials.


All things you'd see in any contract for a new coach coming in to a normal franchise if these were part of the negotiations. Obviously this isn't a normal franchise, Marvin isn't a new coach, and pretty much every franchise already has most of this stuff.

Goes back to the tom coughlin example. Any coach who asked for this stuff and MB agreed to it, that coach would get those commitments in writing before committing to a 4yr old contract. A simple handshake just wouldn't do.


And before the "a handshake worked in the past between them" topic comes up (not by you), that happened in the middle of Marvin's contract, he wasn't in a position to demand they be added to his contract. This is a whole new situation.

[scharm]

[quote]so much bullshit, yet again. if mike concedes to a training facility...yes, we'll have obvious evidence of it, and it will remain here to stay from then on.
[/quote]

Yes bengaled you will have physical evidence. Just like everyone has physical evidence that field turf has replaced grass.

[quote]if mike concedes to a few more scouts...yes, we'll see and know of definite evidence of it, and they will likely never be reduced in number at a later date, either.
[/quote]

Yes bengaled you'll be able to go to bengals.com and find a list of scouts. Just like you can today.

[quote]if he gives up changes in the coach naming his assistants, this ALSO will likely be a format that will remain in place for the future.[/quote]

There will be the constant debate of who wants who and who didn't want who.

However Bengaled when the next 4 win season occurs. It won't matter to you that you can point to an indoor practice facility, that you can look up scouts names, or you can read a former player's twitter about coaching hiring/firing practices. The buck will stop at Mike Brown once again.

Because we can go see the weight room improvements, we can go see the field turf improvements, we can listen to go about his rants and insider information about Brat today, we can certainly see the very good or bad draft classes they have today. All of these at one point were clear cut signs that Marvin was running the show at some point.

I know it and you certainly know it that these were the perceptions. When the losing occurs the buck will stop with Brown no matter what changes Marvin (if he comes back) obtains.

Why even deny it? Judgements are made on win/loss records. It's just in Cincinnati the fans don't want to the hold the coach accountable.

[bengaled]

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1294116379' post='957397']
Yes bengaled you will have physical evidence. Just like everyone has physical evidence that field turf has replaced grass.



Yes bengaled you'll be able to go to bengals.com and find a list of scouts. Just like you can today.



There will be the constant debate of who wants who and who didn't want who.

However Bengaled when the next 4 win season occurs. It won't matter to you that you can point to an indoor practice facility, that you can look up scouts names, or you can read a former player's twitter about coaching hiring/firing practices. The buck will stop at Mike Brown once again.

Because we can go see the weight room improvements, we can go see the field turf improvements, we can listen to go about his rants and insider information about Brat today, we can certainly see the very good or bad draft classes they have today. All of these at one point were clear cut signs that Marvin was running the show at some point.

I know it and you certainly know it that these were the perceptions. When the losing occurs the buck will stop with Brown no matter what changes Marvin (if he comes back) obtains.

Why even deny it?
[/quote]


did anyone say marvin had no control on decisions? why is it that any decisions he's made turn out to be evidence that he's had "total control" of such matters?

when/if the losing continues to occur, and this organization REMAINS as an under par, sub standard one in facilities, coaching decisions, numbers and range of a scouting staff, inadequate training facilities, sub-par medical staff, sub-par training staff, clubhouse deficiencies that don't measure up to the standards of other clubs, not spending the $30M underneath what the cap would have been on players' contracts, sub standard staffing and conditions related player's services, AND ALL THE MANY OTHER THINGS THAT DON'T MEASURE UP TO THAT OF NORMAL NFL FRANCHISES THAT YOU HEAR FORMER PLAYERS SHAKING THEIR HEADS ABOUT.....yes, the buck will stop with mike brown and you'll likely hear the same refrain.

[|OneHeartBeat|]

Scharm, bengalsdave: I think you have to take you emotional investment in this team out of the equation when analyzing what's going on here. The 4 win season is irrelevant. The changes marvin wants will benefit this team LONG-term. There's no right now, fast food ,fix to this mess. 20 years of a losing culture won't change over night. I blame most of this season on the culture here. Why you wouldn't it to change is beyond me.

[MichaelWeston]

[quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1294117586' post='957407']
Scharm, bengalsdave: I think you have to take you emotional investment in this team out of the equation when analyzing what's going on here. The 4 win season is irrelevant. The changes marvin wants will benefit this team LONG-term. There's no right now, fast food ,fix to this mess. 20 years of a losing culture won't change over night. I blame most of this season on the culture here. Why you wouldn't it to change is beyond me.
[/quote]

If we have Bill Bellicheck etc etc with this scouting dept and outdoor facility and etc etc he wins a lot more games this year.

Its a shell game. Watch the non existent training center why I quickly make you forget about my ten loss season and atrocious coaching jobs this year.

[bengalsdave985]

[quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1294117586' post='957407']
Scharm, bengalsdave: I think you have to take you emotional investment in this team out of the equation when analyzing what's going on here. The 4 win season is irrelevant. The changes marvin wants will benefit this team LONG-term. There's no right now, fast food ,fix to this mess. 20 years of a losing culture won't change over night. I blame most of this season on the culture here. Why you wouldn't it to change is beyond me.
[/quote]
If this years 4 win season is irrelevant than last years 10 win season is irrelevant. One season cant mean something and then the next not mean a thing. The changes marvin wants will benefit the team LONG term only if there is a coach WORTH A SHIT coaching the team. If you blame this season on the culture what do you believe brought on the good season last year? I never said I didnt want the changes, all I have said through out this entire thread is I dont believe Marvin has done enough to be asking for anything, especially after the massive turd he captained this year.

[|OneHeartBeat|]

[quote name='bengalsdave985' timestamp='1294118381' post='957414']
If this years 4 win season is irrelevant than last years 10 win season is irrelevant. One season cant mean something and then the next not mean a thing. The changes marvin wants will benefit the team LONG term only if there is a coach WORTH A SHIT coaching the team. If you blame this season on the culture what do you believe brought on the good season last year? I never said I didnt want the changes, all I have said through out this entire thread is I dont believe Marvin has done enough to be asking for anything, especially after the massive turd he captained this year.
[/quote]
Last year doesn't matter either. Its time to move forward with a different philosphy for the future. If brown is going to concede to the changes then let Marvin have a shot with those changes.

[bengalsdave985]

[quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1294119121' post='957421']
Last year doesn't matter either. Its time to move forward with a different philosphy for the future. If brown is going to concede to the changes then let Marvin have a shot with those changes.
[/quote]
So I guess no season since MB has been in charge has meant a damn thing, thats awesome, since none of it mattered we should all just stop being fans until either MB changes or he fucking dies.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='scharm' timestamp='1294104667' post='957213']
You can't tell me fans didn't have the perception that Marvin had significant control at one time. You can't tell me Marvin did not promote that perception and also publically support the way they operated several times.
[/quote]

It doesn't matter...

The reality is Marvin didn't....and I am willing to bet that was a shock to him as well.