|OneHeartBeat| Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='bengalsdave985' timestamp='1294119365' post='957422'] So I guess no season since MB has been in charge has meant a damn thing, thats awesome, since none of it mattered we should all just stop being fans until either MB changes or he fucking dies. [/quote] Nothing in the past really matters now does it? Do you ever wonder how perennial winners always seem to win no matter who the coach is or who the players are? Its because of the culture. Its all about winning from the top down in these organizations and making changes to the culture to get it done. This isn't meant to be an attack on MB its a hope that he will be willing to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Finklestein Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1294115262' post='957383'] Myself and others are arguing for organizational changes (which as things stand, only come with keeping Marvin) [/quote] I guess my problem comes down to this. Those for bringing back Marvin are saying the only way we get organizational changes is by keeping Marvin. I think Brown would just as likely agree to organizational changes if a Cowher, Fisher type coach demanded them as he would with Marvin demanding them. Marvin has been here 8 years and hasn't accomplished the changes we are talking about. Why would Brown suddenly change his mind when the author of a 4-12 season demands it? I honestly think they had the tools in the toolbox to go to the playoffs this year, or at least achieve an .500 season. Your best case scenario has Marvin remaining with the concessions he demands, mine has Cowher or Fisher coming with the same demands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Jim Finklestein' timestamp='1294143892' post='957444'] I guess my problem comes down to this. Those for bringing back Marvin are saying the only way we get organizational changes is by keeping Marvin. I think Brown would just as likely agree to organizational changes if a Cowher, Fisher type coach demanded them as he would with Marvin demanding them. Marvin has been here 8 years and hasn't accomplished the changes we are talking about. Why would Brown suddenly change his mind when the author of a 4-12 season demands it? I honestly think they had the tools in the toolbox to go to the playoffs this year, or at least achieve an .500 season. [b]Your best case scenario has Marvin remaining with the concessions he demands, mine has Cowher or Fisher coming with the same demands.[/b] [/quote] both aren't likely, but one's much more likely than the other. MB likes, trusts and respects Marvin. If he's going to cave (again, unlikely), he's going to cave for the coach he respects, trusts and admires, not a coach he's never worked with before. That's just reality and consistent with how Mike Brown operates. He's not going to bring in an outsider and give them full control. He's going to keep a guy he's close to and can still have some influence with to make sure he doesn't lose full control of his company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|OneHeartBeat| Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Jim Finklestein' timestamp='1294143892' post='957444'] I guess my problem comes down to this. Those for bringing back Marvin are saying the only way we get organizational changes is by keeping Marvin. I think Brown would just as likely agree to organizational changes if a Cowher, Fisher type coach demanded them as he would with Marvin demanding them. Marvin has been here 8 years and hasn't accomplished the changes we are talking about. Why would Brown suddenly change his mind when the author of a 4-12 season demands it? I honestly think they had the tools in the toolbox to go to the playoffs this year, or at least achieve an .500 season. Your best case scenario has Marvin remaining with the concessions he demands, mine has Cowher or Fisher coming with the same demands. [/quote] There is no BIG name coach going to come here withot a significant say in personnell and philosophy. Its a pipe dream to think otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1294113289' post='957343'] For the marvin haters, what he's trying to do is change the culture of a losing franchise. MB has already hired/fired coaches. The only thing he hasn't done is increase the personell dept, add a gm. But whatever, forget the gm, just add some scouts for fucks sake! When a franchise that's a perrenial loser starts to struggle, the losng culture and mentality takes over. How many times does he have to hire/fire coaches before he tries something different?MB should be committed to winning but when he refuses to change his philosophy, then I question his commitment to winning. Those of you calling out others b/c of the changes marvin wants are totally fucking clueless. The changes can only help this team we're all fans of, get better. This isn't about marvin, its about the changes marvin wants. The changes we as fans want. Some people really need to wake the fuck up as to what's really at issue here. [/quote] Good post. The thing the people that want Marvin gone are overlooking is Marvin could have signed a contract last season while he was in the process of winning a division title. Instead, he had conditions and wanted changes made. If Marvin would have won again without those changes being made, Mike Brown could have said "well, we won 2 years in a row without those changes." I actually think this horrible season should give Marvin MORE leverage for the changes he wants. People are pointing to a practice bubble. Marvin also wants more say over scouts, players and Coaches. How can you not think a guy that has won 2 division titles in spite of being handcuffed by his owner would be better if he wasn't handcuffed? Makes no damn sense to me the way some are talking here. And obviously nothing is going to change their minds, so I won't even bother anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengalnutt Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Jeff Blake' timestamp='1294084553' post='956972'] I have done my fair share of criticizing Marvin Lewis but I have also stated I think he is a pretty good coach who has done a lot for this franchise. Regardless of your opinion of Marvin I think we can all agree that the team's problems are much bigger than him and are cultural and organizational in nature. I am not neccesarily pissed to see him leave just what him leaving represents. Is it just me or is Marvin standing firm on his demands a defining moment in Bengals history? We know MB will likely not budge now and probably never will. But it makes me a little sad as a Bengals fan to see a coach who is asking for what we all know is needed and know that his effort is likely futile. Anyways, thank you Marvin for demanding something more out of MB and asking some tough questions for us. And thank you for making the Bengals at least viable again. Who Dey [/quote] You said it Brother, it is sad because this organization was truely sad. He at least made it competitive. I have had my issues with his game day coaching, but I think he is a good coach.....It`s just getting soooo old.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1294117586' post='957407'] Scharm, bengalsdave: I think you have to take you emotional investment in this team out of the equation when analyzing what's going on here. The 4 win season is irrelevant. The changes marvin wants will benefit this team LONG-term. There's no right now, fast food ,fix to this mess. 20 years of a losing culture won't change over night. I blame most of this season on the culture here. Why you wouldn't it to change is beyond me. [/quote] There's not a whole lot of emotion. It's quite the opposite. You can't credit a guy for a 10 win season and then not hold him accountable for a 4 win season. That's as black and white as it gets and taken at face value. No emotion in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1294123054' post='957433'] It doesn't matter... The reality is Marvin didn't....and I am willing to bet that was a shock to him as well. [/quote] Actually if you are building your support for Marvin based on changes to the organization. It matters a whole lot. Because you are accepting a coach that finished his second 4 win season in 3 years and the cost of doing that is these supposed changes. So yeah it matters if that's your point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Jim Finklestein' timestamp='1294143892' post='957444'] I guess my problem comes down to this. Those for bringing back Marvin are saying the only way we get organizational changes is by keeping Marvin. I think Brown would just as likely agree to organizational changes if a Cowher, Fisher type coach demanded them as he would with Marvin demanding them. Marvin has been here 8 years and hasn't accomplished the changes we are talking about. Why would Brown suddenly change his mind when the author of a 4-12 season demands it? I honestly think they had the tools in the toolbox to go to the playoffs this year, or at least achieve an .500 season. Your best case scenario has Marvin remaining with the concessions he demands, mine has Cowher or Fisher coming with the same demands. [/quote] There it is. Sweet and Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|OneHeartBeat| Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1294146595' post='957455'] There's not a whole lot of emotion. It's quite the opposite. You can't credit a guy for a 10 win season and then not hold him accountable for a 4 win season. That's as black and white as it gets and taken at face value. No emotion in that. [/quote] Of course he should be held accountable for a 4 win season, but I think the cloud of uncertainty was a big distraction this year. Marvin is not asking to be president of football operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Jim Finklestein' timestamp='1294143892' post='957444'] I guess my problem comes down to this. Those for bringing back Marvin are saying the only way we get organizational changes is by keeping Marvin. [b]I think Brown would just as likely agree to organizational changes if a Cowher, Fisher type coach demanded them as he would with Marvin demanding them.[/b] Marvin has been here 8 years and hasn't accomplished the changes we are talking about. Why would Brown suddenly change his mind when the author of a 4-12 season demands it? I honestly think they had the tools in the toolbox to go to the playoffs this year, or at least achieve an .500 season. Your best case scenario has Marvin remaining with the concessions he demands, mine has Cowher or Fisher coming with the same demands. [/quote] Neither of those guys have had an 8 year working relationship with Mike Brown. They haven't talked to him on a daily basis, know how he works, gotten to know him personally, anything. I have absolutely no reason to believe that Mike Brown would look at those guys the same way he looks at Marvin. None. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1294146943' post='957457'] Actually if you are building your support for Marvin based on changes to the organization. It matters a whole lot. Because you are accepting a coach that finished his second 4 win season in 3 years and the cost of doing that is these supposed changes. So yeah it matters if that's your point of view. [/quote] No. I want Marvin back because if he is back that means changes WILL be made.... If he does not come back, that means MB will keep the status quo and Marvin left the Bengals.... If the Bengals had no intention of keeping Marvin here he would have been gone yesterday. I don't think some here get it... The Bengals want Marvin.... Marvin does not want the Bengals unless the front office makes changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1294147314' post='957462'] Of course he should be held accountable for a 4 win season, but I think the cloud of uncertainty was a big distraction this year. Marvin is not asking to be president of football operations. [/quote] Exactly... Marvin is asking for very reasonable things that EVERY other team in the NFL have.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1294147314' post='957462'] Of course he should be held accountable for a 4 win season, but I think the cloud of uncertainty was a big distraction this year. Marvin is not asking to be president of football operations. [/quote] People are suggesting Marvin would bring change. When asked how that would actually happen, a poster indicated that it could be via contract language. That proposed model is failed logic on many levels, but it is very close to saying Marvin would function as a leader of football operations. It's failed logic on many levels: 1- That's not holding a guy accountalbe for a 4 win season. 2- Those type of changes are not easyily managed via contract because the day to day operations have so many variables that it's very difficult to have 100% language. That's why there are 3rd parties in the world that decide on these matters in the cases of contract disputes 3- You'd still have a guy that took a division championship team with significant improvements and turned into a 4 win team running the show. 4 - If it could be contracted the changes would not be organizational it would be individual. Thus once that coach flopped those changes would leave with the coaches terminated contract. 5 - For these discussions the actual workings of the team are largely perception based not fact based. At the end of the day if Marvin would return you'd still have the same assumptions that existed under his first 8 years as it is unlikely contract language would not be made publically. Typically fans revert back to the owner to blame as evidenced by this very discussion. As stated above it's a shell game from the Marvin camp. Hey, look at what I didn't have or get and don't look at my record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1294147572' post='957464'] No. I want Marvin back because if he is back that means changes WILL be made.... If he does not come back, that means MB will keep the status quo and Marvin left the Bengals.... If the Bengals had no intention of keeping Marvin here he would have been gone yesterday. I don't think some here get it... The Bengals want Marvin.... Marvin does not want the Bengals unless the front office makes changes. [/quote] I think people fall for Marvin's shell game to easyily. The changes you want are the cost for supporting the extension of a losing Marvin Lewis. Having proof of that is key. It does matter. Why does Monday matter they clearly annouced last week that Tuesday was the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1294148309' post='957476'] I think people fall for Marvin's shell game to easyily. The changes you want are the cost for supporting the extension of a losing Marvin Lewis. Having proof of that is key. It does matter. Why does Monday matter they clearly annouced last week that Tuesday was the day. [/quote] Monday matters because they did meet yesterday and nothing came out of it. If you are sure you want to fire someone then you fire them... you don't let it linger... I would see your point if Marvin had not turned down an extension just after winning the division and going 10 and 6. I have been hearing from my source for a year and a half that Marvin turning down the extension offered by MB was not about money, but about wanting organizational changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1294148175' post='957474'] 1- That's not holding a guy accountalbe for a 4 win season. [/quote] What if he had signed the extension last season when it was offered? Would you still say he should be held accountable by being fired? [quote]2- Those type of changes are not easyily managed via contract because the day to day operations have so many variables that it's very difficult to have 100% language. That's why there are 3rd parties in the world that decide on these matters in the cases of contract disputes[/quote] They are easily made if both parties want them made. What if they were talking to Cowher and he had demands like Marvin? You think they couldn't easily be made then? [quote]3- You'd still have a guy that took a division championship team with significant improvements and turned into a 4 win team running the show. [/quote] You'd also have a guy that took a laughing stock and won 2 division titles in 5 years. See, it's all in how you want to look at it. [quote]4 - If it could be contracted the changes would not be organizational it would be individual. Thus once that coach flopped those changes would leave with the coaches terminated contract. [/quote] Well, the same could be said for the Big name Super Bowl coaches that you have talked about. [quote]5 - For these discussions the actual workings of the team are largely perception based not fact based. At the end of the day if Marvin would return you'd still have the same assumptions that existed under his first 8 years as it is unlikely contract language would not be made publically. Typically fans revert back to the owner to blame as evidenced by this very discussion. [/quote] Fans revert back to the Owner because he has been the one constant in all this. Fastest to loss 200 games as a Owner. 2 playoff appearances in 20 years. 0 Playoff wins in that span, no back to back winning seasons in 29 years or some shit like that. ...you know the rest. [quote]As stated above it's a shell game from the Marvin camp. Hey, look at what I didn't have or get and don't look at my record.[/quote] You might actually have a point if he hadn't started this "shell game" into motion over 14 months ago. So in other words, that's ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1294148900' post='957480'] Monday matters because they did meet yesterday and nothing came out of it. If you are sure you want to fire someone then you fire them... you don't let it linger... I would see your point if Marvin had not turned down an extension just after winning the division and going 10 and 6. I have been hearing from my source for a year and a half that Marvin turning down the extension offered by MB was not about money, but about wanting organizational changes. [/quote] When you annouce that a decision will be made on Tuesday that's the day. There is no lingering, there's only people overlooking the timeline they told you it would happen. I do not doubt Marvin wants organizational change. Well aware that he has not signed offers. The point from me, is what has Marvin done to give anyone confidence that he'll deliver? Very little. The next time around it will another thing he somehow didn't get. You guys make it sound like you just want a GM, not marks in the Win column. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='OneHeartBeat' timestamp='1294125713' post='957435'] Nothing in the past really matters now does it? [b]Do you ever wonder how perennial winners always seem to win no matter who the coach is or who the players are[/b]? Its because of the culture. Its all about winning from the top down in these organizations and making changes to the culture to get it done. This isn't meant to be an attack on MB its a hope that he will be willing to change. [/quote] Ehhh, I don't buy this. The only team it really applies to is the Stealers and Tomlin inherited a great team with great everything else besides ethics. I think Indy is starting to go downhill with Caldwell. Actually, I can give you way more instances where perennial winners turned into mediocre or shit once they lost their "Franchise Coach". Just go down the list: 49ers after Seifert left and Marriucci stepped in. Dallas after Jimmy Johnson left Giants after Parcels left Buffalo after Levy Left Denver after Shannahan left Big time organizations that really sucked after their franchise coach left. Yeah, sometime the grass ain't greener on the other side. Thats my greatest fear in losing Marvin. Thats why Tom Coughlin still has a job. Way too much downside vs upside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1294149633' post='957488'] When you annouce that a decision will be made on Tuesday that's the day. There is no lingering, there's only people overlooking the timeline they told you it would happen. I do not doubt Marvin wants organizational change. Well aware that he has not signed offers. The point from me, is what has Marvin done to give anyone confidence that he'll deliver? Very little. The next time around it will another thing he somehow didn't get. You guys make it sound like you just want a GM, not marks in the Win column. [/quote] I don't know... Add talent like this team never had under MB before Marvin. Have two winning seasons unlike MB's first 13 years before Marvin. Hell... Just make this team respectable at times compared to the 13 years before Marvin. Everyone knows this organization has taken steps forward since Marvin was hired. Marvin feels more needs to be done to make this team a consistent winner. I and a shit ton of people agree with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smizno Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Marvin needs to get the F outta here as fast as he can so that he actually has a chance to be a consistent winner instead of a Pawn within MB's system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 I have seen more ire for MB and support for Marvin than anything else... I believe Marvin has just made himself a martyr for Bengaldom and is the latest coach to make MB look bad.... That is if MB does not cave.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1294149907' post='957490'] I don't know... Add talent like this team never had under MB before Marvin. Have two winning seasons unlike MB's first 13 years before Marvin. Hell... Just make this team respectable at times compared to the 13 years before Marvin. Everyone knows this organization has taken steps forward since Marvin was hired. Marvin feels more needs to be done to make this team a consistent winner. I and a shit ton of people agree with him. [/quote] Everyone knows that of course. But I bet you can find posts from Oldschooler or someone on this board seperating Marvin from the previous years pointing to organizational change that supposedly happened and that's why it's different. Now this coach that did in fact take a division winner with significant improvements only wins 4 games, what is Oldschooler saying today? Mike Brown is the one constant! Which is true, but Marvin is playing you. Honest question: Do you think there is 0 chance the Marvin turned down those extensions because he thought he'd have significantly more negotiating power after the 2010 season? Since things went terribly wrong he's now in spin mode tyring to paint the picture. If he is extended the picture will get painted. There will physical things that you can point to. However the looming issue still remains, this coach has now twice not delivered on increased expectations with talented defending division championships. So if that happens a 3rd time, who do you think gets the blame? It will be Mike or another member of the Brown family. The shell game has proven to work and the thinking of bengals fans is proven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1294151608' post='957509'] Everyone knows that of course. But I bet you can find posts from Oldschooler or someone on this board seperating Marvin from the previous years pointing to organizational change that supposedly happened and that's why it's different. Now this coach that did in fact take a division winner with significant improvements only wins 4 games, what is Oldschooler saying today? Mike Brown is the one constant! Which is true, but Marvin is playing you. Honest question: Do you think there is 0 chance the Marvin turned down those extensions because he thought he'd have significantly more negotiating power after the 2010 season? Since things went terribly wrong he's now in spin mode tyring to paint the picture. If he is extended the picture will get painted. There will physical things that you can point to. However the looming issue still remains, this coach has now twice not delivered on increased expectations with talented defending division championships. So if that happens a 3rd time, who do you think gets the blame? It will be Mike or another member of the Brown family. The shell game has proven to work and the thinking of bengals fans is proven. [/quote] Yes I believe there is zero percent chance.... Marvin knew the risk of waiting... Look how high Zimmer's star was after last season and how far it has faded in one year... I truly believe his desire is to win and not just a job. He will have a job somewhere else. He wants changes that makes the Bengals a consistent winner. That is what I believe.... Otherwise he would have taken the money/security and run... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1294151608' post='957509'] Everyone knows that of course. But I bet you can find posts from Oldschooler or someone on this board seperating Marvin from the previous years pointing to organizational change that supposedly happened and that's why it's different.[/quote] Mike Brown hired the Tobins and John Cooper and bought some weight and video equipment. He did make some changes. Marvin did win more games in his 8 years than 3 other coaches won in the 13 seasons prior. But it has also been noted that MB got off track started reverting back to his old ways and more needs to be done. [quote]Now this coach that did in fact take a division winner with significant improvements only wins 4 games, what is Oldschooler saying today? Mike Brown is the one constant! [/quote] You notice you say the same thing over and over and over and over a lot? I do. [quote]Which is true, but Marvin is playing you. The shell game has proven to work and the thinking of bengals fans is proven. [/quote] Marvin isn't playing me. Let me say this again since you obviously missed it in one of the other 100 Marvin threads I said it in. If Marvin is not retained I will not be heartbroken. I just want to win. I think Marvin getting the things he wants is our best option for that to happen. I would probably even welcome Bill Cowher, who I fucking hate with a passion, if he was given the power Marvin wants and turned this Franchise into a perennial winner. The losing is tiring. And I am getting old. Winning is much more fun. And I want something that I invest a ton of time and energy to be fun again. With the way Mike Brown has ran things for the past 2 decades, it is almost like the stars have to align perfectly for the Bengals to win. The way he has ran things this team has been a consistent loser. Hell, I think Mike Brown could just let Marvin fire Brat and Sheppard and replace them with Hue Jackson and a How to Play WR for Dummies handbook and this team would improve. I don't know an easier way to say it than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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