Oh Miss Rand say it aint so

[Jamie_B]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-ford/ayn-rand-and-the-vip-dipe_b_792184.html


[quote]Ayn Rand and the VIP-DIPers

Despite persistent rumors, Rand Paul was not named in honor of influential conservative thinker, Ayn Rand. His name is Randall.

It's good he was not named for Ayn Rand because her real name was Alisa Zinovievna Rosenbaum which she changed honoring her Rand typewriter.

Miss Rand, famously a believer in rugged individualism and personal responsibility, was a strong defender of self-interest. She was a staunch opponent of government programs from the New Deal and Social Security to the Great Society and Medicare.

A Library of Congress survey of the most influential books on American readers, "Atlas Shrugged" ranked second only to the Bible. Rand's influence is encyclopedic ranging from Alan Greenspan to Paul "I grew up on Ayn Rand" Ryan (R-Wis), a "Young Gun" who aims to cut or privatize Medicare and Social Security.

The Right should be commended politically for their ability to develop and stick to a unified message. But close inspection of this unified message reveals a disappointing secret identified by a student of the Godfather of Neo-conservatism, --- the University of Chicago's Leo Strauss. The student, Anne Norton ("Leo Strauss and the Politics of American Empire") identified what she called VIP-DIP meaning Venerated in Public, Disdained in Private. "Do as I say, not as I do." The list of vip-dipers on the Right runs from Harold Bloom to Newt Gingrich, but certainly not Ayn Rand. Right?

Say it ain't so Alisa Zinovievna Rosenbaum.

A heavy smoker who refused to believe that smoking causes cancer brings to mind those today who are equally certain there is no such thing as global warming. Unfortunately, Miss Rand was a fatal victim of lung cancer.

However, it was revealed in the recent "Oral History of Ayn Rand" by Scott McConnell (founder of the media department at the Ayn Rand Institute) that in the end Ayn was a vip-dipper as well. An interview with Evva Pryror, a social worker and consultant to Miss Rand's law firm of Ernst, Cane, Gitlin and Winick verified that on Miss Rand's behalf she secured Rand's Social Security and Medicare payments which Ayn received under the name of Ann O'Connor (husband Frank O'Connor).

As Pryor said, "Doctors cost a lot more money than books earn and she could be totally wiped out" without the aid of these two government programs. Ayn took the bail out even though Ayn "despised government interference and felt that people should and could live independently... She didn't feel that an individual should take help."

But alas she did and said it was wrong for everyone else to do so. Apart from the strong implication that those who take the help are morally weak, it is also a philosophic point that such help dulls the will to work, to save and government assistance is said to dull the entrepreneurial spirit.

In the end, Miss Rand was a hypocrite but she could never be faulted for failing to act in her own self-interest.[/quote]

[|Elflocko|]

I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning...

[John~Galt]

She was dying. Anyone with a modicum of self interest would grasp at any straw possible to cling to life. To make fun of that is inhuman.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='John~Galt' timestamp='1296524045' post='967081']
She was dying. Anyone with a modicum of self interest would grasp at any straw possible to cling to life. To make fun of that is inhuman.
[/quote]


Not making fun so much as find the irony of it entertaining. Her theories have been damaging to society, I'm not sure I should feel too sorry for her.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1296528133' post='967107']
Not making fun so much as find the irony of it entertaining. Her theories have been damaging to society, I'm not sure I should feel too sorry for her.
[/quote]


In what way have they damaged society?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='John~Galt' timestamp='1296597702' post='967389']
In what way have they damaged society?
[/quote]

The whole individualism silliness. It ignores that we live in a society and as such have an effect on each other.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='John~Galt' timestamp='1296597702' post='967389']
In what way have they damaged society?
[/quote]
For starters, think about the impact Alan Greenspan has had on our current economic collapse.

About a year ago I was having a civil dispute with a young gal in her late 20s. When we got to the "making up" stage, she asked me if I had ever heard of Ayn Rand. I said, "Yes" and noted that I was familiar with Objectivist thinking and that I had even read Rand's "Virtue of Selfishness." She then asked me what I thought of Objectivism. I snorted and suggested she do some real philosophy.

Socrates, and about 80 years later, Phocion (alternate spelling Phokion), prefered to die in accordance with their principles when it was quite probable that a "momentary lapse" would have preserved their mortal beings. But of course, they were exceptions and examples of what is possible if one can muster the fortitude to walk the walk. Most of us cave in when the going gets tough.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1296616865' post='967516']
[color="#FF0000"]For starters, think about the impact Alan Greenspan has had on our current economic collapse.[/color]

About a year ago I was having a civil dispute with a young gal in her late 20s. When we got to the "making up" stage, she asked me if I had ever heard of Ayn Rand. I said, "Yes" and noted that I was familiar with Objectivist thinking and that I had even read Rand's "Virtue of Selfishness." She then asked me what I thought of Objectivism. I snorted and suggested she do some real philosophy.

Socrates, and about 80 years later, Phocion (alternate spelling Phokion), prefered to die in accordance with their principles when it was quite probable that a "momentary lapse" would have preserved their mortal beings. But of course, they were exceptions and examples of what is possible if one can muster the fortitude to walk the walk. Most of us cave in when the going gets tough.
[/quote]


This.

And even Greenspan offered a me culpa realizing how wrong he was regarding it. (how heart felt who knows)

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1296612764' post='967499']
The whole individualism silliness. It ignores that we live in a society and as such have an effect on each other.
[/quote]

I am all for individualism. Unfortunately some take philosophies of individualism and rational self interest to extremes. Just like anything else the few nuts give the whole idea a bad name.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1296616865' post='967516']
For starters, think about the impact Alan Greenspan has had on our current economic collapse.

About a year ago I was having a civil dispute with a young gal in her late 20s. When we got to the "making up" stage, she asked me if I had ever heard of Ayn Rand. I said, "Yes" and noted that I was familiar with Objectivist thinking and that I had even read Rand's "Virtue of Selfishness." She then asked me what I thought of Objectivism. I snorted and suggested she do some real philosophy.

Socrates, and about 80 years later, Phocion (alternate spelling Phokion), prefered to die in accordance with their principles when it was quite probable that a "momentary lapse" would have preserved their mortal beings. But of course, they were exceptions and examples of what is possible if one can muster the fortitude to walk the walk. Most of us cave in when the going gets tough.
[/quote]

The problem in my opinion with the federal reserve is that it exists.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='John~Galt' timestamp='1296680522' post='967672']
The problem in my opinion with the federal reserve is that it exists.
[/quote]

I have always been afraid of banks.

~Andrew Jackson

[Go Skins]

I thought "Atlas Shrugged" was discussed on these boards at some point, but doing a search through a few ways, I did not find it.

 

I was forced to watch part I last night in my English 112 class, as we had to read and compare two of Ayn Rand's stories for an assignment from her book.  The movie was just an excuse for another assignment. 

 

Now that I am reading all of this, I am not sure how this is really popular.  The economics part of it was laughable, "predicting" gas will be nearly 40 bucks a gallon in 2016, the dow jones dropped 4,000 points in a day, amongst other things. The acting was really good, if you want to look at the movie from that perspective. 

[Jamie_B]

I am all for individualism. Unfortunately some take philosophies of individualism and rational self interest to extremes. Just like anything else the few nuts give the whole idea a bad name.

 

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/25/pope-francis-condemns-culture-of-individualism-that-creates-economic-inequality/

 

Pope Francis condemns ‘culture of individualism’ that creates economic inequality

 

Pope Francis has made his strongest condemnation yet of inequality when he used a visit to a Brazilian slum to denounce the “culture of selfishness” that is widening the gap between rich and poor.

 

The first Latin American pope, who once worked with slum dwellers in his home city of Buenos Aires, expressed solidarity with the residents of the Varginha favela in northern Rio de Janeiro, where he received a rapturous welcome.

 

“You are often disappointed by facts that speak of corruption on the part of people who put their own interests before the common good,” Francis told a crowd who had gathered on a football field to hear him speak. “To you and all, I repeat: never yield to discouragement, do not lose trust, do not allow your hope to be extinguished. Situations can change, people can change.”

 

Despite security concerns, the pope walked through the community, which was once part of a region contested by drug gangs that was so violent it was known as the Gaza Strip.

 

Varginha was “pacified” in January by special police units who maintain a presence in the community, where Francis stopped to pray at a small local church.

The setting underscored the pope’s focus on poor and peripheral communities, where the Catholic church has been losing followers in recent years to US-style evangelical groups.

 

On Thursday, the pontiff unleashed the most powerful and politically loaded rhetoric of his trip, attacking the “culture of selfishness and individualism” and urging more efforts to fight hunger and poverty.

 

“No amount of peace-building will be able to last, nor will harmony and happiness be attained in a society that ignores, pushes to the margins or excludes a part of itself,” he said.

 

The throngs were largely kept at bay by security barriers, but the pope kissed babies and shook hands with well-wishers. Police helicopters buzzed overheads, and police snipers watched the crowd from rooftops.

 

In a mass the previous day, the pope had urged Catholics to resist the “ephemeral idols” of money, power, success and pleasure. He also gave a sharply worded condemnation of moves to legalise drug use during a visit on Wednesday to a rehabilitation centre in Brazil.

 

“A reduction in the spread and influence of drug addiction will not be achieved by a liberalisation of drug use, as is currently being proposed in various parts of Latin America,” the pontiff said.

 

Those comments ran counter to a growing movement in Latin America to liberalise sales of marijuana and other narcotics following decades of a murderous and largely ineffectual war against drugs in the region.

 

On Thursday evening, Pope Francis was expected to draw hundreds of thousands of pilgrims to a Youth Day mass on the iconic Copacabana beach resort, which is better known for its sun worshippers.

 

Catholics from around the world have flocked to Rio de Janeiro to hear and see Francis, whose visit for the World Youth Day festival coincides with a wave of protest in Brazil over inequality, corruption, high prices and low standards of public service.

 

A massive stage decorated with a crucifix and flanked by giant screens and speakers has been erected on sands usually occupied by beach footballers, volleyball players and bikini-clad tourists.

 

On Thursday, however, the Catholic faithful who filled the area were shivering under umbrellas as Rio experienced one of the coldest and wettest days of this southern hemisphere winter.

 

Many had travelled for days by bus or plane to see a pope that they admire for his spirituality, lack of ostentation and strong emphasis on the poor. For many Brazilian Catholics, these qualities are particularly appreciated at a time when more than a million people have taken to the streets to condemn local politicians and businessmen who are accused of profiting at society’s expense.

 

Giovana Mendes was one of the millions who took to the streets last month in protests at what she described as “the shameful political situation in Brazil”, but the 17-year-old from Parana state said she was filled with hope and excitement to see a Latin American pope.

 

“It’s indescribable, marvellous. I have butterflies in my stomach. It’s an amazing feeling,” she said. “In my life, he is the best pope. He’s for the people.”

 

Others had flown from the pope’s home nation, Argentina. Maria Fernanda Luciani and Angelina Gordillo starting planning the trip soon after Jorge Mario Bergoglio – as Francis was previously known – was chosen as pope.

 

“We are so proud,” said Luciani. “I feel so much emotion and happiness. Francis offers hope for the youth and for the church.”

 

The focus of the pope’s visit has been on drawing more young people into the church. Brazil is the world’s most populous Catholic nation, but in recent years the Vatican has been alarmed by the rise of secularism and an exodus of worshippers to US-style evangelical groups.

 

In the 1980s, nearly 90% of Brazilians identified themselves as Catholic. Today, however, census data suggests only 65% do so, while 22% describe themselves as evangelical, and 10% say they are not religious.

 

Many expressed hope that the new pope would offer a change of style and focus that would help to reverse the decline.

 

“He’s very humble. He likes to speak the language of young people,” said Renan Maia Londrino, a 22-year-old from Parana state in Brazil. “I hope he can mobilise young people who are outside the church. This is an important moment for the entire world.”

 

The authorities appear to have struggled with the conflicting desire of the pope to be as accessible as possible and the government’s instinct to step up security at a time of heightened protest.

 

Another demonstration was planned for Thursday evening a few kilometres further along the coast outside the home of the unpopular Rio state governor, Sérgio Cabral, in Leblon. Protests at the same location earlier in the week were broken up with rubber bullets and teargas.

 

Although the pope has been careful not to take sides, the Brazilian president, Dilma Rousseff, said her government needed to work closely with the Vatican “against a common enemy – inequality” and to do more to improve the lives of its people.

 

Although Francis had a somewhat conservative reputation in his home nation, Argentina, up until he was chosen as pope, his comments prior to his visit to Brazil on “savage capitalism” and the “dictatorship of the economy” heartened many on the left and those who joined the recent protests.

 

“The church fights with us. Pope Francisco fights with the people in these demonstrations,” said Walace Luiz Herbst, a pilgrim from Espírito Santo. “Christ, the pope and the church won’t sit quiet about injustice and inequality.”

 

[|Numbers|]

For starters, think about the impact Alan Greenspan has had on our current economic collapse.

About a year ago I was having a civil dispute with a young gal in her late 20s. When we got to the "making up" stage, she asked me if I had ever heard of Ayn Rand. I said, "Yes" and noted that I was familiar with Objectivist thinking and that I had even read Rand's "Virtue of Selfishness." She then asked me what I thought of Objectivism. I snorted and suggested she do some real philosophy.

Socrates, and about 80 years later, Phocion (alternate spelling Phokion), prefered to die in accordance with their principles when it was quite probable that a "momentary lapse" would have preserved their mortal beings. But of course, they were exceptions and examples of what is possible if one can muster the fortitude to walk the walk. Most of us cave in when the going gets tough.

 

I found it interesting to look at the connections she has had over the years.  Especially the Greenspan connection.  There is one confusing thing though.  Why did she have a problem with Reagan if Reagan followed the Objectivist way of thought through Greenspan ?  Something to do with her thought process on business over labor that Reagan supported ?

 

http://mapper.nndb.com/start/?id=30007

 

The above link is a relationship mapper.  Expand the nodes to see more people associated with each link.

[|Elflocko|]

LOL at JG getting butthurt when his hero is outed as being just another "parasite"... 

[MichaelWeston]

For me collectivism or the ciommunity over individualism just feels more evolved. I udnerstand the argumetns that society is full of greed and individual self interest makes everything run, but I think we should strive for more.

[Homer_Rice]

Objectivism is essentially a "justifying" philosophy for narcissists and young people. Brings an old nostrum to mind: Young people are assholes because they think the world revolves around them individually; old people are assholes, too--they know the world doesn't revolve around them, they just don't give a shit anymore.

[T-Dub]

What I got from her is that if your neighbor's house is on fire, it's cool to charge them whatever you think they can afford to use your water hose.


Rand is all about the rich convincing themselves they are smarter and all-around better than everyone else, with no debt or gratitude at all owed to society or anything else but their own superiority & therefore no responsibility to do anything with that wealth but make themselves richer.


It came up on here before in relation to Bratfailski reading Fountainhead or w/e while on the stationary bike in a HK episode. A guy known for trying to outsmart a defense and unable to admit it & adjust when he couldn't? Seems about right.

[|Numbers|]

What I got from her is that if your neighbor's house is on fire, it's cool to charge them whatever you think they can afford to use your water hose.


Rand is all about the rich convincing themselves they are smarter and all-around better than everyone else, with no debt or gratitude at all owed to society or anything else but their own superiority & therefore no responsibility to do anything with that wealth but make themselves richer.


It came up on here before in relation to Bratfailski reading Fountainhead or w/e while on the stationary bike in a HK episode. A guy known for trying to outsmart a defense and unable to admit it & adjust when he couldn't? Seems about right.

 

Didn't she stand for labor over business ?  To me that was the confusing aspect when Rand had issues with Reagan.  Not sure how to explain that part of it.  Especially adding in the fact both Reagan and Greenspan were both considered followers of Objectivism.

[Homer_Rice]

 

Didn't she stand for labor over business ?  To me that was the confusing aspect when Rand had issues with Reagan.  Not sure how to explain that part of it.  Especially adding in the fact both Reagan and Greenspan were both considered followers of Objectivism.

Don't think Reagan was considered an Objectivist, or even a fellow traveler.

[|Numbers|]

Don't think Reagan was considered an Objectivist, or even a fellow traveler.

 

Probably not a full fledged member but there are quite a few connections to not ignore.

 

Reagan was connected to Ayn Rand and objectivism through;

1.  HUAC hearings
2.  Alan Greenspan
3.  Alfalfa Club
4.  Andrea Mitchell (also connected to Alan Greenspan)
5.  Barbara Walters (also connected to Alan Greenspan)
6.  Bohemian Grove

etc...

 

http://mapper.nndb.com/start/?id=30007

 

once clicking the link look at the top bar and ADD Reagan.  Click on Reagan and click expand.  Once that is up most of the connections can be seen on the known and mapped objectivists along with those affiliated with that idea.

 

http://dangerousminds.net/comments/ayn_rand_absolutely_hated_ronald_Reagan.

 

From The Ayn Rand Letter, Volume IV, Number 2, November-December 1975:

Now I want to give you a brief indication of the kinds of issues that are coming up, on which you might want to know my views.

 

1. The Presidential election of 1976. I urge you, as emphatically as I can, not to support the candidacy of Ronald Reagan. I urge you not to work for or advocate his nomination, and not to vote for him. My reasons are as follows: Mr. Reagan is not a champion of capitalism, but a conservative in the worst sense of that word—i.e., an advocate of a mixed economy with government controls slanted in favor of business rather than labor (which, philosophically, is as untenable a position as one could choose—see Fred Kinnan in Atlas Shrugged, pp. 541-2). This description applies in various degrees to most Republican politicians, but most of them preserve some respect for the rights of the individual. Mr. Reagan does not: he opposes the right to abortion.

 

From Rand’s final public speech, “Sanction of the Victims,” delivered November 21, 1981:

In conclusion, let me touch briefly on another question often asked me: What do I think of President Reagan? The best answer to give would be: But I don’t think of him—and the more I see, the less I think. I did not vote for him (or for anyone else) and events seem to justify me. The appalling disgrace of his administration is his connection with the so-called “Moral Majority” and sundry other TV religionists, who are struggling—apparently with his approval—to take us back to the Middle Ages, via the unconstitutional union of religion and politics.

 

The threat to the future of capitalism is the fact that Reagan might fail so badly that he will become another ghost, like Herbert Hoover, to be invoked as an example of capitalism’s failure for another fifty years.

 

Observe Reagan’s futile attempts to arouse the country by some sort of inspirational appeal. He is right in thinking that the country needs an inspirational element. But he will not find it in the God-Family-Tradition swamp

[Homer_Rice]

Still, I don't think Reagan was an Objectivist, despite sympathies on some accounts. Connecto may allow us to infer some mutual association for practical and for perhaps even partially principled reasons, but not self-identification. And as far as I know, Reagan never self-identified as an Objectivist.

[|Numbers|]

Still, I don't think Reagan was an Objectivist, despite sympathies on some accounts. Connecto may allow us to infer some mutual association for practical and for perhaps even partially principled reasons, but not self-identification. And as far as I know, Reagan never self-identified as an Objectivist.

 

Reagan's sympathies had me twisted a bit with the amount of connections he had.  Very difficult to paint any one person into just one single philosophy even if that person self identifies with one philosophy (...and yes, that is what  I tried to do with Reagan).  I am certainly not a follower of Rand's philosophy but there are at least a couple of nuggets to be obtained from her ideas for those in the Democratic leaning portion of the house.  1.  Labor over business.  2.  Separation of religion and politics. 

 

I have never identified totally with any one particular philosophy.  However, Rousseau has had some wonderful ideas on education (if the idea of females regulated to the "domestic world" is ignored).  Plato's cave in that one tends to mistake appearances for reality.  Socrates for his dialectical approach.  etc...  sometimes even these clash with each other and it is upon the person themselves to determine their own reality.

[Homer_Rice]

Reagan was a politician with a politician's malleability.

 

Rand was no friend of labor. At best, neutral with respect to how an individual ought behave within the confines of Objectivist philosophy. Recommend a quick review of "The Virtue of Selfishness" (if you can stomach it.) Insofar as separation of faith and politics goes, it seems to me that that is an issue of more concern to the Republican side of the aisle than the Democratic one. (Although, I personally think that the underlying belief structures a person has are fine and part of the political process.)

 

I self-identify as a Platonist (neo-Platonist.) Don't get me started. Lol.

[|Numbers|]

Reagan was a politician with a politician's malleability.

 

Rand was no friend of labor. At best, neutral with respect to how an individual ought behave within the confines of Objectivist philosophy. Recommend a quick review of "The Virtue of Selfishness" (if you can stomach it.) Insofar as separation of faith and politics goes, it seems to me that that is an issue of more concern to the Republican side of the aisle than the Democratic one. (Although, I personally think that the underlying belief structures a person has are fine and part of the political process.)

 

I self-identify as a Platonist (neo-Platonist.) Don't get me started. Lol.

 

I don't intend to get you started.  I'd rather have more polite discussions about other items.  These discussions of people's belief systems or morality usually wind up in the toilet, especially around election time frames.